Landing with no Radio in Class “C” Airspace

[Brad Z]

I disagree. The regulation says that you must 'maintain' but is silent of what to do if you are unable to 'maintain'. You are assuming that you must then exit but that isn't included in the reg.

The AIM does give guidance for lost comm situations that aren't covered specifically in regulations.

6−4−1. Two-way Radio Communications Failure

a. It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two-way radio communications failure. During two-way radio communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulation, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate they should not be reluctant to use the emergency action contained in 14 CFR Section 91.3(b).
​

The lost communication regulations and guidance is established to avoid having the NORDO aircraft do something that ATC doesn't expect. An arriving airplane receiving radar service suddenly turning to exit the CCA is certainly unexpected and could cause other problems. Continuing with the current clearance, and expected arrival and runway, would certainly be the exercise of good judgement under AIM 6-4-1 a. I do not see how doing something completely unexpected would be defended as 'good judgement'.

I think the key here is if the airplane was already inside the CCA when the loss of comm was discovered. If not, divert. If so, continue. You must also consider the probability that ATC discovered the loss of comm at a different time than the pilot discovered it. Neither one knows exactly when the failure happened.

I agree with you. It's just not clear if he was already inside class C airspace when he lost his radios. If he was, it would certainly make more sense to continue, particularly if he was in the pattern when he lost his radios.

If he was outside CCA, but had already made radio contact and was instructed to continue inbound, but lost contact before entering the boundaries of class C, it's pretty clear he should have diverted to another airport and then negotiate a deviation with ATC on the telephone for entry.

But yeah, being required to maintain radio contact, without reasonable guidance on how to depart when radio contact is lost, is problematic, particularly if ATC has given you instructions and expects you to comply.

This issue makes me wonder if there is something else...perhaps he said something to ATC on the phone that made it clear there was a violation. I don't know.

This situation is a great use of ASRS report--not for avoiding certificate action, but for identifying a safety gap that would benefit from guidance.

 

[Palmpilot]

It says you have to maintain communications in class C airspace. He did not do that.

I added quite a bit to my post while you were writing your reply.

I need to learn to do my edits BEFORE hitting "Post Reply"!

 

[Brad Z]

I added quite a bit to my post while you were writing your reply.

I need to learn to do my edits BEFORE hitting "Post Reply"!

Indeed you did. I think we're pretty much in agreement. Interestingly, requirements in 91.131 for class B airspace point to 91.129, and add the requirement for a radio capable of communicating on all of the class b frequencies. Technically, you can follow the lost comms rules of class D in class B airspace, but not in class C.

Lost comms in general is something that I think would benefit from modernization. IFR lost comm procedures in particular were developed prior to radar being a common ATC feature, and taken literally, would have folks doing weird things like holding over IAFs waiting to hit a specific arrival time.

 

[Palmpilot]

Indeed you did. I think we're pretty much in agreement. Interestingly, requirements in 91.131 for class B airspace point to 91.129, and add the requirement for a radio capable of communicating on all of the class b frequencies. Technically, you can follow the lost comms rules of class D in class B airspace, but not in class C.

Weird.

Lost comms in general is something that I think would benefit from modernization. IFR lost comm procedures in particular were developed prior to radar being a common ATC feature, and taken literally, would have folks doing weird things like holding over IAFs waiting to hit a specific arrival time.

AMEN!!!

 

[Larry in TN]

I agree with you. It's just not clear if he was already inside class C airspace when he lost his radios. If he was, it would certainly make more sense to continue, particularly if he was in the pattern when he lost his radios.

He can't just disappear.

If his radios fail while legally within CCA, it is not possible for him to comply with the regulation that requires him to maintain communications. The regulations make no mention of what he should do.

Without an applicable regulation, we are back to the AIM which says to use good judgement.

There is nothing in either the regulation nor AIM to suggest that either option is poor judgement.

When a law or regulation leaves ambiguity, the benefit of the doubt will not go to the regulator who failed to make the regulation more specific.

 

[Palmpilot]

...When a law or regulation leaves ambiguity, the benefit of the doubt will not go to the regulator who failed to make the regulation more specific.

We hope!

 

[Shawn]

This issue makes me wonder if there is something else...perhaps he said something to ATC on the phone that made it clear there was a violation. I don't know.

They did mention they diverted other traffic to deal with me and warned I might hear from the FSDO.

The fact that another aircraft (quite possibly a passenger airliner since it was at a Charlie) was diverted is what probably escalated this from a no harm/no foul nothing to report here incident to some jackwagoon at the FSDO justifying his job after probably mandatory reporting requirements by Tower.

 

[luvflyin]

The fact that another aircraft (quite possibly a passenger airliner since it was at a Charlie) was diverted is what probably escalated this from a no harm/no foul nothing to report here incident to some jackwagoon at the FSDO justifying his job after probably mandatory reporting requirements by Tower.

Diverted?? As in they made another airplane go to a different airport? I’m having trouble getting my head wrapped around that. Maybe someone got a go around. Or had to extend downwind or make a 360 or sumpin.

 

[N1120A]

Are there any single ring Class Cs? I doubt it. That means that the OP was already in the Class C when he had the failure and wouldn't not have been able to maintain communications either way.

It says you have to maintain communications in class C airspace. He did not do that.

He wouldn't have been able to maintain communications in the Class C airspace anyway, even if he left it. So, in your mind, he violated the regulation by losing his radio. No matter what.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

I just went back and re-read the OP. It says was lawfully in the class C airspace.

 

[LanceS]

1. File a NASA report if it’s not too late
2. Don’t sign anything yet
3. Get an aviation attorney

My question to the OP is does “lawfully in class C airspace” mean you had established radio communication and were inside the class C ring, or had simply established radio communication with approach outside the ring? In my mind it doesn’t really matter. I always assumed once we establish radio contact and were under their control that the ring really didn’t matter any more. Maybe the FAA feels otherwise. If so, they should clarify in in the AIM/FAR.

Keep us posted how it turns out, and best of luck with the FAA.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

1. File a NASA report if it’s not too late
2. Don’t sign anything yet
3. Get an aviation attorney
4. Get a hand-held radio.

My question to the OP is does “lawfully in class C airspace” mean you had established radio communication and were inside the class C ring, or had simply established radio communication with approach outside the ring? In my mind it doesn’t really matter. I always assumed once we establish radio contact and were under their control that the ring really didn’t matter any more. Maybe the FAA feels otherwise. If so, they should clarify in in the AIM/FAR.

Keep us posted how it turns out, and best of luck with the FAA.

 

[Groundpounder]

When in doubt, file a NASA report. Can't get in trouble for filing too many.

 

[Lindberg]

It says you have to maintain communications in class C airspace. He did not do that.

And that would be the case whether he turned around and skeddaled or did what he did. Seems to me that what he did was more predictable, since it's what he'd already told ATC he planned to do. If he'd turned around, ATC may still have had to move planes. But they'd have no idea where he was going.

So assuming for the sake of the OP that nothing he did caused the radio failure, his "violation" was inevitable and unavoidable. Once that occurred, what would you have had him do? More importantly, if you were an instructor assigned to give him remedial instruction, what would you teach him?

 

[Brad Z]

And that would be the case whether he turned around and skeddaled or did what he did. Seems to me that what he did was more predictable, since it's what he'd already told ATC he planned to do. If he'd turned around, ATC may still have had to move planes. But they'd have no idea where he was going.

So assuming for the sake of the OP that nothing he did caused the radio failure, his "violation" was inevitable and unavoidable. Once that occurred, what would you have had him do? More importantly, if you were an instructor assigned to give him remedial instruction, what would you teach him?

I don't know, because the OP never came back to give us any more details. It's all speculation at this point. If I was his instructor, I'd want to sit down and get the whole story...the OP's story as well as the FAA's allegation. If I disagreed with the FAA's conclusion, I'd give the inspector a call and try to determine how he came to the conclusion he came to.

I suspect we will never learn any additional details, the OP last logged on April 9 and hasn't returned since.

My question would be whether he was in Class C airspace, or under a class C shelf when radio communication was lost. We also don't know what instructions he was given prior to losing comms, how far out he was, whether he actually lost comms much earlier than the OP thinks he did (often the pilot is the last one to figure out that he or she has lost comms). Was there a non-towered airport that he was flying over at the moment that he lost radios that he could have landed at and called the tower to coordinate a NORDO arrival? For example, if he was flying into Allentown (ABE) and lost his radios over Queen City (XLL), would it make more sense to land at ABE or divert to XLL and regroup?