Landing the RV-8A -- GoPro Video

Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Ingleside, TX
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Jay Honeck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIKy4WW8u64&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This video lends us a fairly unique perspective on landing -- looking at the gear from under the wing.

It's always surprising to see how much landing gear movement there is when you land. Even a greaser, as the second landing on this video was, induces a significant amount of oscillation.

It's easy to see why the A-model (nosegear) model RVs are best if landed like a taildragger. It's best not to let the nosewheel come down too quickly. :D

As always, GoPro video is best when viewed on a large, HD screen. Enjoy!
 
Nice video Jay, but I don't see any limos waiting to haul guests to the hotel.

What editing software are you using?

Where is the RTV at? :lol: ;)
 
Geico266 said:
Nice video Jay, but I don't see any limos waiting to haul guests to the hotel.

What editing software are you using?

Where is the RTV at? :lol: ;)
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The limos are just off the edge of the screen. :D

Funny, as soon as I turned off the WiFi on the GoPro, the battery life was quite satisfactory -- over one hour.
I guess the whole idea of turning off the camera to save the battery doesn't apply when the remote controller uses the juice up more quickly then the camera itself!
 
Do you have the stick at the aft stop when the nosewheel touches? It is good practice - the nosegear is the weak link in all of Van's "A" series.
 
Why are you landing so fast?You're nowhere near stall in either.
 
kyleb said:
Do you have the stick at the aft stop when the nosewheel touches? It is good practice - the nosegear is the weak link in all of Van's "A" series.
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We aim for that, but this video shows that we have a ways to go. If you do it perfectly, you can keep the nosegear off for a long, long time after touchdown.
 
Jay Honeck said:
We aim for that, but this video shows that we have a ways to go. If you do it perfectly, you can keep the nosegear off for a long, long time after touchdown.
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:yes:

The nose gear on the "A" models is just a kick stand to keep the prop out of the dirt. Wheelies look cool also. ;)

Slow down a little more on final also, jmho.
 
Henning said:
Why are you landing so fast?You're nowhere near stall in either.
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We're still playing with optimal over the fence speeds. Those itty bitty wings lose lift right NOW if you get slow, so we're probably carrying a bit more speed than we need.

Funny thing is, it still lands nice and short, using our current technique.
 
Jay, I think both landings were just fine. I just got transition training for my RV-8 and for some reason had it on my brain when I got back home that I wanted to cross the numbers at 80mph, but the instructor actually told me 90mph. Well, after dropping it in twice at 80mph and then bouncing violently down the runway like a basketball afterwards (the worst and scariest landings of my 30-year flying career, BTW), I think it's better to carry more speed and let the aircraft gradually settle to the runway, which is what the two of you are doing very well.

I'll let you know how I do at 90mph as soon as I get up the nerve to try it again! :eek:
 
Geico266 said:
Can we take your courtesy cars on the beach? :dunno: ;)

If you notice on your first landing there is a white pickup doing a burn out in the sand. :lol: :yes:
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D

Sure! I've got a tow rope, and four wheel drive. :D

Actually, in town the beach road (up against the dunes) is groomed every day with a road grader. You're fine driving on it. Many thousands do.

Out of town, it can get interesting when the wind piles the sand into forty foot drifts. Four wheel drive is recommended out there.

Re: Burnouts in the sand. Since there is no snow or ice here, every young man has to get his "donut quota" in the sand instead. I find it less satisfactory than a good Wisconsin ice donut, but it's better than nothing. :D
 
Geico266 said:
Jay, this is the "new" anti spat that strengthens the nose wheel gear leg. It comes with a larger fairing also. Highly recommended.

Also, their landing is a long wheelie. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhthU...yer_detailpage
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Interesting. I would have thought that it would oscillate less than ours, but it doesn't appear to.

We've had the new aftermarket axle installed on ours, and there is a stiff piece of wood (maple?) fiberglassed to the nosegear leg underneath the fairings that supposedly minimizes oscillation. I guess it works.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Interesting. I would have thought that it would oscillate less than ours, but it doesn't appear to.

We've had the new aftermarket axle installed on ours, and there is a stiff piece of wood (maple?) fiberglassed to the nosegear leg underneath the fairings that supposedly minimizes oscillation. I guess it works.
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You should be good to go. Actually, it looks pretty good to some I've seen. The wood must be doing it's job. Just inspect the wood at annual.
 
For uploaders, here is an interesting YouTube note: When I initially uploaded this video, they would not allow it to be viewed on mobile devices, claiming that I had not "made it available" for viewing.

I had done no such thing, of course.

Puzzled, I dug into that error message, and discovered that this was YouTube's way of making your video lass available when you use copyrighted music. I had used REO Speedwagon's "Time For Me To Fly" and ELP's "Learning to Fly" as my background music, and somehow it "knew" this was copyrighted -- and partially killed the video.

YouTube has a feature whereby you can click a button and have it automatically replace your "illegal" music with some non-copyrighted music. So I clicked it -- and that's how the video ended up with the horrible (and too short) music it has now. I never heard it until just now -- sorry about that!
 
colojo said:
Jay, I think both landings were just fine. I just got transition training for my RV-8 and for some reason had it on my brain when I got back home that I wanted to cross the numbers at 80mph, but the instructor actually told me 90mph. Well, after dropping it in twice at 80mph and then bouncing violently down the runway like a basketball afterwards (the worst and scariest landings of my 30-year flying career, BTW), I think it's better to carry more speed and let the aircraft gradually settle to the runway, which is what the two of you are doing very well.

I'll let you know how I do at 90mph as soon as I get up the nerve to try it again! :eek:
Click to expand...

It seems far too early in your experience with the RV to make permanent judgments on exactly how it needs to be flown. Unless your ASI reads high, 80 mph is plenty in the RV8. It's all a matter of technique, energy management, and how you manage your approach profile. Stall speed is 51 mph. It will not drop out of the sky at 80 mph in unless your ASI is way off, or there is something wrong with the airplane. But if your ASI is that far off, then you just fly whatever number works. I had an RV that read about 10 mph low, and I'd bring it in at 60, even though I was actually flying about 70.
 
Jay, Do you have the wood re enforcements on the main gear? That goes a long way in eliminating the ocilation you get in the fast taxi speed. Also you do need to slow your landings down a bit and get the nose a little higher on touchdown and hold the nosewheel off as long as possible. I found 65-70 mph over the fence solo and 70-75 mph gross works really well on my 7 and also my friend's 8A. I always land with full flaps also. 90 is way too fast down final. I can routinely make the 800' turn off without braking with those numbers. Don

PS, the second landing was better than the first. I bet that was Mary from the back seat.:)
 
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I would leave the camera there and see if you can put more effort into doing something differently, like perhaps holding the nose off more, to reduce those oscillations. The nice thing is you can experiment and try to figure out what it will take exactly to make them as minimal as possible.
 
Great video - sent it to my wife for a birds-eye view of the beach and island. Maybe that will entice her to take a trip south with me?
 
Jay Honeck said:
Funny, as soon as I turned off the WiFi on the GoPro, the battery life was quite satisfactory -- over one hour.
I guess the whole idea of turning off the camera to save the battery doesn't apply when the remote controller uses the juice up more quickly then the camera itself!
Click to expand...

Something is funny there. I get three hours or more of battery life by using the keychain remote and wifi to turn the camera off and on.
 
RoscoeT said:
It seems far too early in your experience with the RV to make permanent judgments on exactly how it needs to be flown. Unless your ASI reads high, 80 mph is plenty in the RV8. It's all a matter of technique, energy management, and how you manage your approach profile. Stall speed is 51 mph. It will not drop out of the sky at 80 mph in unless your ASI is way off, or there is something wrong with the airplane. But if your ASI is that far off, then you just fly whatever number works. I had an RV that read about 10 mph low, and I'd bring it in at 60, even though I was actually flying about 70.
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If there's one thing I've found consistently weird about RVs, it's that they seem to have ASIs that read incorrectly at slow speeds. Ours indicates 55 knots (not mph) at the stall.

Using GPS as a cross-check, we know that is incorrect -- the plane is actually flying slower than the indicated airspeed when it stalls. In other words, the plane is stalling at the right speed, the instrument is just reading high.

At the high end of the scale, the ASI is nearly dead-nuts accurate, which is the same thing I've heard from nearly every RVer I've met.

It's why we flight tested our plane with our transition trainer, and noted where it stalled. That indicated airspeed became our mark.
 
Jay, is that with full flaps or no flaps? There is around 10mph difference between flaps up and down. ASI's do vary between airplanes (I've flown 21 different RVs) but full flap is around 50-53mph on 7s and 8s with an accurate ASI. The good old 1.3 VSI works great on these airplanes. If you have the simple tube pitot on yours you can experiment bending it up and down a bit. If there is one observation I have watching RVs and GA in general is that most are trying to land way too fast. Don
 
I don't really care what the ASI says, when you're landing that flat, you are way too fast on TD, and that brings about oscillation and other problems. As long as you have enough runway, you can fly the approach at any speed you desire, however don't let the wheels touch until you have a much higher nose up attitude.
 
yakdriver said:
The good old 1.3 VSI works great on these airplanes. If there is one observation I have watching RVs and GA in general is that most are trying to land way too fast. Don
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+1 there. Here's an old video of my RV-3 landing from a 64-65 mph power-off approach. 90 in an RV is cooking. I'd rather see someone do a slightly firm landing from 1.3Vso, than a greasejob after floating for 1000'. I see a lot of RVs float and float, and float on landing. And I see lots of airplanes in general do the same. Lots of folks fly Pitts' way fast on final too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SEYsX0Bio4&feature=youtu.be
 
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Henning said:
I don't really care what the ASI says, when you're landing that flat, you are way too fast on TD, and that brings about oscillation and other problems. As long as you have enough runway, you can fly the approach at any speed you desire, however don't let the wheels touch until you have a much higher nose up attitude.
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Go up and stall it and note the airspeed for reference and 1.3 vso as a building block and play with it from there. You should be able to almost touch the tail tie down on a nice landing then hold the nose off as long as possible from there. And also power off approaches work the best. Like a tailwheel always stick back in your lap during ground maneuvering. Don
 
Jay Honeck said:
Wow! That's amazing!

What version GoPro?
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Gopro3 Black.

When I wrote my earlier note I turned on the wifi. That's four hours ago and the battery still shows as full. The wifi is an extremely low drain.

I have two theories now on your problem.

1) Did you see my note the other day to use the keychain instead of the IOS app? That makes a huge difference in my experience.

2) When you "turn the camera off" are you *really* turning it off? Or just stopping recording? Using the keychain you should push and hold the "mode" button until the LCD display turns off. This will turn off the camera and the keychain. Only the wifi will be running at this point. Then, when you are ready to record again push "mode" again, the keychain will wifi attach to the camera, turn the camera on and display on the LCD whatever is being displayed on the camera LCD.
 
rwellner98 said:
Gopro3 Black.

When I wrote my earlier note I turned on the wifi. That's four hours ago and the battery still shows as full. The wifi is an extremely low drain.

I have two theories now on your problem.

1) Did you see my note the other day to use the keychain instead of the IOS app? That makes a huge difference in my experience.

2) When you "turn the camera off" are you *really* turning it off? Or just stopping recording? Using the keychain you should push and hold the "mode" button until the LCD display turns off. This will turn off the camera and the keychain. Only the wifi will be running at this point. Then, when you are ready to record again push "mode" again, the keychain will wifi attach to the camera, turn the camera on and display on the LCD whatever is being displayed on the camera LCD.
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Yeah, I saw your note the other day, but haven't had a chance to play with the keychain remote.

I will try your method ASAP.
 
whifferdill said:
+1 there. Here's an old video of my RV-3 landing from a 64-65 mph power-off approach. 90 in an RV is cooking.[/URL]
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This is the post that will likely trigger the cascade of BS, through no fault of yours. Mark my words, within three posts someone will be accusing me of flying my approaches at 90. Within three posts after that, someone will be labeling my flying as "unsafe".

*I* know you never said that, and *you* know you never said that -- but that's the way it will be read by the usual suspects. :rolleyes:
 
yakdriver said:
Go up and stall it and note the airspeed for reference and 1.3 vso as a building block and play with it from there. You should be able to almost touch the tail tie down on a nice landing then hold the nose off as long as possible from there. And also power off approaches work the best. Like a tailwheel always stick back in your lap during ground maneuvering. Don
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I've pulled those off a few times. The ones where the nosewheel is sky high, and you're almost using the wing as an aerodynamic brake.

They're fun, but the odds of getting bent out of shape using that technique is high in an -8A. Because the plane has so little inertia, I find it way too easy to get slow and bang the nose down. Thus, I use the approach you saw in Landing #2, which was a true greaser.

What I could have done better was to hold the nose off a bit longer, but my airspeed (despite Hennings observation) was too slow by then to hold it off much longer than I did. As for my roll out, well, I had to add power to make the first turnoff... :D

I've posted this video on the RV site, too. Comments I've received there have stated that the amount of gear oscillation depicted is about what I should expect to see.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Yeah, I saw your note the other day, but haven't had a chance to play with the keychain remote.

I will try your method ASAP.
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It's been 7.5 hours now since I turned on the wifi. The battery just went from all three bars to two bars.

I suspect most of that is from me occasionally turning the camera on to check the battery level. :wink2:

Anyway, I'm glad this came up. I had been wondering how long the battery would last in this usage profile. The answer appears to be "way longer than I need it to".
 
Jay Honeck said:
I've pulled those off a few times. The ones where the nosewheel is sky high, and you're almost using the wing as an aerodynamic brake.

They're fun, but the odds of getting bent out of shape using that technique is high in an -8A. Because the plane has so little inertia, I find it way too easy to get slow and bang the nose down. Thus, I use the approach you saw in Landing #2, which was a true greaser.
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But you don't need to hold it sky high with full aft stick right away - you can hold it 2" off with a steadily increasing amount of aft stick as you slow down on the landing roll. No need to let it bang down. Be in control.

I don't know about the 8A, but I know in the 6A that you can scrape the tail doing a full stall landing with full aft stick, depending on the FWF weight.
 
rwellner98 said:
It's been 7.5 hours now since I turned on the wifi. The battery just went from all three bars to two bars.

I suspect most of that is from me occasionally turning the camera on to check the battery level. :wink2:

Anyway, I'm glad this came up. I had been wondering how long the battery would last in this usage profile. The answer appears to be "way longer than I need it to".
Click to expand...

Ok, this will be the final update on this as I'm bored with the experiment. It's been 24 hours, I've turned the camera on with the keychain probably 10-12 times to check battery level. This time it was still showing 2 bars, unchanged from when I last checked 10 hours ago.

Based on this experiment I will never again worry about when I turn on the wifi. It's going on when I attach the camera to the plane so I don't forget to turn it on later (yes, I've done that. :-().
 
Jay, the more landings you do, the more you'll get a feel for it. As has been pointed out, get your airspeed down a tad. In my 6A, I'm over the fence at 75mph, and even that is a smidge too fast. You definitely want to work on keeping that nose gear off as long as possible as well. You should be finishing your roll out with the stick full aft. This is extremely important if you operate off grass.

Since you can re-use the airplane, these landings were great!


Jeff Orear
RV6A. N782P
Peshtigo, WI
 
At full gross weight in the -10, our full flap stall speed up high is 54 kias. On landing with the pressure increase beneath the wing it is 63 kias. I cross the fence at 70 kias and once below 10' agl, no longer watch ASI. I go by feel and keep my hand ready to push the throttle as it sinks quick at full flap stall, at idle, with no warning. If hauling the family and near aft limit, it always lands on the mains. If solo or two up front and near fwd limit, the nose wheel can hit if I am not careful. Good landings and video.
 
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