Landing lights

[Skylane81E]

Yea, I find that FSIMS is a better link. There is two versions of FSIMS, what the public sees and the other one that Inspectors use that has more information that is not public in nature.

Nice that the playing field is so level

 

[RotorAndWing]

Nice that the playing field is so level

Well, it has to do with Privacy Act and a few other things. Some of the additional information available on FSIMS to the Inspectors are not public domain documents.

At least the FAA has made the majority of FSIMS available to the public.

 

[bnt83]

14 CFR 1.1

Flame resistant means not susceptible to combustion to the point of propagating a flame, beyond safe limits, after the ignition source is removed.


So how does one prove that the material is flame resistant and what method of proof is acceptable to the Administrator?

How about the DOT approval for a fabric bought at an automotive place? (strickly CAR 3 stuff)

 

[Tom-D]

Jump back to the rosen sun visors in the 1956 Cessna 172, how is it a major? If you substitute measurable for appreciable it's easier to read this reg.

It is apparent that some one at FAA and or Rozen thought there was a need, so we have a STC.

Basically if you order the OEM P/N would you get a Rozen ? If not we have a change. and some body didn't like making the decision as to major or minor.

 

[RotorAndWing]

How about the DOT approval for a fabric bought at an automotive place? (strickly CAR 3 stuff)

As long as there is some sort of proof the material meets the regulation.

BTW, automotive upholstery material has meet the flame retardant requirement for the past 30+ years. All one has to do is ask the supplier to provide a copy of the documentation.

 

[Tom-D]

14 CFR 1.1

Flame resistant means not susceptible to combustion to the point of propagating a flame, beyond safe limits, after the ignition source is removed.

So if it doesn't blow up in your face or burn your fingers we are good to go.

 

[bnt83]

As long as there is some sort of proof the material meets the regulation.

BTW, automotive upholstery material has meet the flame retardant requirement for the past 30+ years. All one has to do is ask the supplier to provide a copy of the documentation.

Now start getting into part 25 and fireblocking of cabin seats or the very specific vertical burn tests for materials, thats different.

 

[Skylane81E]

Jump back to the rosen sun visors in the 1956 Cessna 172, how is it a major? If you substitute measurable for appreciable it's easier to read this reg.


§ 1.21

[FONT=LMCBGO+Arial,Italic,Arial][FONT=LMCBGO+Arial,Italic,Arial]Classification of changes. [/FONT][/FONT]Changes shall be classified as minor and major. A minor change shall be one which has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. A major change shall be one not classified as a minor change.
​

You're in the wrong section my friend, we ain't the manufacturer

 

[RotorAndWing]

So if it doesn't blow up in your face or burn your fingers we are good to go.

How do you prove that and what method is acceptable to the Administrator?

 

[bnt83]

You're in the wrong section my friend, we ain't the manufacturer

Certainly am. That is the exact same statement in part 18 tho.

 

[Skylane81E]

Certainly am. That is the exact same statement in part 18 tho.

Keep looking, hint, we aren't "changing" anything

 

[bnt83]

Keep looking, hint, we aren't "changing" anything

Not following you. We are still on the rozen visor STC for 1956 172 right?

I'm arguing that the STC is just for show, and not required for a minor alteration. Or heck even the Whelen LEDs replacing the old GE bulbs

 

[Skylane81E]

For the purpose of altering an existing airplane certification standards are irrelevant

 

[Tom-D]

How do you prove that and what method is acceptable to the Administrator?

I think you answered that in post 104

Have you forgot the question?

He said:
If you read 43 B, recovering the seats is approved for the owner to do the work because seats are not structural. However, you do need the flamability cert on the upholstery.

Show the requirements for burn certs to return to service.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Have you forgot the question?

I think you answered that in post 104

Post 104

If you read 43 B, recovering the seats is approved for the owner to do the work because seats are not structural. However, you do need the flamability cert on the upholstery.

I didn't say anything in post 104.

However you still won't answer a very basic question:

How do you prove that and what method is acceptable to the Administrator?

 

[Tom-D]

Post 104



I didn't say anything in post 104.

However you still won't answer a very basic question:

How do you prove that and what method is acceptable to the Administrator?

read the edit.

104= 125

 

[bnt83]

For the purpose of altering an existing airplane certification standards are irrelevant

Explain to me how a DER or ODA determins an alteration is airworthy if the original certification basis is irrelevant.

 

[RotorAndWing]

read the edit.

I did. An owner brings a plane to you to annual. He shows you the new interior he just installed.

What proof do you have that it meets the CAR3 or 14 CFR Part 23 requirement? And what proof is acceptable to the administrator?

 

[Tom-D]

I did. An owner brings a plane to you to annual. He shows you the new interior he just installed.

What proof do you have that it meets the CAR3 or 14 CFR Part 23 requirement? And what proof is acceptable to the administrator?

Show me the requirements for return to service IAW the FARs

 

[RotorAndWing]

Show me the requirements for return to service IAW the FARs

How do you prove that and what method is acceptable to the Administrator?

You can't answer one simple question.

And with that I'm done.

 

[bnt83]

Show me the requirements for return to service IAW the FARs

You're saying the owner has already returned the airplane to service replacing the interior under preventative maintenance of part 43 and hence the burden of proof is on them and you aren't concerned about it.

 

[Tom-D]

How do you prove that and what method is acceptable to the Administrator?

You can't answer one simple question.

And with that I'm done.

43.5 Approval for return to service after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
No person may approve for return to service any aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance, that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—

(a) The maintenance record entry required by § 43.9 or § 43.11, as appropriate, has been made;

(b) The repair or alteration form authorized by or furnished by the Administrator has been executed in a manner prescribed by the Administrator; and

(c) If a repair or an alteration results in any change in the aircraft operating limitations or flight data contained in the approved aircraft flight manual, those operating limitations or flight data are appropriately revised and set forth as prescribed in § 91.9 of this chapter.

see any thing there that requires a burn cert?

 

[RotorAndWing]

You're saying the owner has already returned the airplane to service replacing the interior under preventative maintenance of part 43 and hence the burden of proof is on them and you aren't concerned about it.

If you read 43 B, recovering the seats is approved for the owner to do the work because seats are not structural. However, you do need the flamability cert on the upholstery.

Tom is playing games (again) because he made a claim:

no you don't.

if you really think that show me the requirement in the regs.

He was shown the requirement:

CAR3

3.388 Fire precautions—

(a) Cabin interiors. Only materials which are flash resistant shall be used. In compartments where smoking is to be permitted, the wall and ceiling linings, the covering of all upholstering, floors, and furnishings shall be flame-resistant. Such compartments shall be equipped with an adequate number of self contained ash trays. All other compartments shall be placarded against smoking.

14 CFR Part 23

23.853 Passenger and crew compartment interiors.

For each compartment to be used by the crew or passengers:
(a) The materials must be at least flame-resistant;
(b) [Reserved]
(c) If smoking is to be prohibited, there must be a placard so stating, and if smoking is to be allowed—
(1) There must be an adequate number of self-contained, removable ashtrays; and

Now that he's been proven wrong the twisting has begun.

 

[Tom-D]

You're saying the owner has already returned the airplane to service replacing the interior under preventative maintenance of part 43 and hence the burden of proof is on them and you aren't concerned about it.

Pretty much. seeing there really nothing in the description of Flame Resistant in FAR 1.1

Flame resistant means not susceptible to combustion to the point of propagating a flame, beyond safe limits, after the ignition source is removed.

what does "beyond safe limits" mean. does that require the flame goes out when the ignition source is removed?

 

[Skylane81E]

Explain to me how a DER or ODA determins an alteration is airworthy if the original certification basis is irrelevant.

Don't know, don't care as I am neither and neither have bearing on if an alteration is major or minor

 

[RotorAndWing]

43.5 Approval for return to service after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
No person may approve for return to service any aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance, that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—

(a) The maintenance record entry required by § 43.9 or § 43.11, as appropriate, has been made;

(b) The repair or alteration form authorized by or furnished by the Administrator has been executed in a manner prescribed by the Administrator; and

(c) If a repair or an alteration results in any change in the aircraft operating limitations or flight data contained in the approved aircraft flight manual, those operating limitations or flight data are appropriately revised and set forth as prescribed in § 91.9 of this chapter.

see any thing there that requires a burn cert?

So as the person signing off the installation of the new material what data are you using that is acceptable to the administrator?

43.13 Performance rules (general).

(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in § 43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.
(b) Each person maintaining or altering, or performing preventive maintenance, shall do that work in such a manner and use materials of such a quality, that the condition of the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance worked on will be at least equal to its original or properly altered condition (with regard to aerodynamic function, structural strength, resistance to vibration and deterioration, and other qualities affecting airworthiness).




43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, § 135.411(a)(1), and § 135.419 of this chapter).

(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:
(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.
(2) The date of completion of the work performed.
(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.
(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed.

 

[Tom-D]

and now show me the requirement for burn certs for an A&P to return to service.

you can't, so you blame me for asking the question.

typical.

 

[Tom-D]

So as the person signing off the installation of the new material what data are you using that is acceptable to the administrator?

43.13 Performance rules (general).

(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in § 43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.
(b) Each person maintaining or altering, or performing preventive maintenance, shall do that work in such a manner and use materials of such a quality, that the condition of the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance worked on will be at least equal to its original or properly altered condition (with regard to aerodynamic function, structural strength, resistance to vibration and deterioration, and other qualities affecting airworthiness).




43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, § 135.411(a)(1), and § 135.419 of this chapter).

(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:
(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.
(2) The date of completion of the work performed.
(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.
(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed.

weak, very weak.

 

[RotorAndWing]

and now show me the requirement for burn certs for an A&P to return to service.

you can't, so you blame me for asking the question.

typical.

So please explain to everyone here how you would sign off an interior recover and installation in a logbook. Please show us the language you would use.

And what data would you use? Can you please show us?

 

[Tom-D]

So please explain to everyone here how you would sign off an interior recover and installation in a logbook. Please show us the language you would use.

And what data would you use? Can you please show us?

no…
because they comply with FAR 43. and would be worded as to individual jobs as requested by the owner, some would be installing a kit bought from a known supplier, some would be for owner provided parts. and because the people I supervise would have been briefed as to what will safe to install.

So to conclude there are no requirements for burn certs to comply with return to service, it is a judgment call on the person who did the work and my judgement as to weather I want to place my name on it.

 

[RotorAndWing]

no…
because they comply with FAR 43. and would be worded as to individual jobs as requested by the owner, some would be installing a kit bought from a known supplier, some would be for owner provided parts. and because the people I supervise would have been briefed as to what will safe to install.

So to conclude there are no requirements for burn certs to comply with return to service, it is a judgment call on the person who did the work and my judgement as to weather I want to place my name on it.

So you can't give us an example of how you would make a logbook entry for an interior recover and reinstall?

You have an A&P, just show us what that logbook entry would look like.

 

[Tom-D]

So you can't give us an example of how you would make a logbook entry for an interior recover and reinstall?

You have an A&P, just show us what that logbook entry would look like.

Not a case of Can't, it a case of won't

 

[RotorAndWing]

FAR 23.853:
Appendix F to Part 23 — Test Procedure

​

Acceptable test procedure for self-extinguishing materials for showing compliance with Secs. 23.853, 23.855 and 23.1359.
(a) Conditioning. Specimens must be conditioned to 70 degrees F, plus or minus 5 degrees, and at 50 percent plus or minus 5 percent relative humidity until moisture equilibrium is reached or for 24 hours. Only one specimen at a time may be removed from the conditioning environment immediately before subjecting it to the flame.
(b) Specimen configuration. Except as provided for materials used in electrical wire and cable insulation and in small parts, materials must be tested either as a section cut from a fabricated part as installed in the airplane or as a specimen simulating a cut section, such as: a specimen cut from a flat sheet of the material or a model of the fabricated part. The specimen may be cut from any location in a fabricated part; however, fabricated units, such as sandwich panels, may not be separated for a test. The specimen thickness must be no thicker than the minimum thickness to be qualified for use in the airplane, except that:
(1) Thick foam parts, such as seat cushions, must be tested in 1/2 inch thickness;
(2) when showing compliance with Sec. 23.853(d)(3)(v) for materials used in small parts that must be tested, the materials must be tested in no more than 1/8 inch thickness;
(3) when showing compliance with Sec. 23.1359(c) for materials used in electrical wire and cable insulation, the wire and cable specimens must be the same size as used in the airplane. In the case of fabrics, both the warp and fill direction of the weave must be tested to determine the most critical flammability conditions. When performing the tests prescribed in paragraphs (d) and (e) of this appendix, the specimen must be mounted in a metal frame so that (1) in the vertical tests of paragraph (d) of this appendix, the two long edges and the upper edge are held securely; (2) in the horizontal test of paragraph (e) of this appendix, the two long edges and the edge away from the flame are held securely; (3) the exposed area of the specimen is at least 2 inches wide and 12 inches long, unless the actual size used in the airplane is smaller; and (4) the edge to which the burner flame is applied must not consist of the finished or protected edge of the specimen but must be representative of the actual cross section of the material or part installed in the airplane. When performing the test prescribed in paragraph (f) of this appendix, the specimen must be mounted in metal frame so that all four edges are held securely and the exposed area of the specimen is at least 8 inches by 8 inches.
(c) Apparatus. Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this Appendix, tests must be conducted in a draft-free cabinet in accordance with Federal Test Method Standard 191 Method 5903 (revised Method 5902) which is available from the General Services Administration, Business Service Center, Region 3, Seventh and D Streets SW., Washington, D.C. 20407, or with some other approved equivalent method. Specimens which are too large for the cabinet must be tested in similar draft-free conditions.
(d) Vertical test. A minimum of three specimens must be tested and the results averaged. For fabrics, the direction of weave corresponding to the most critical flammability conditions must be parallel to the longest dimension. Each specimen must be supported vertically. The specimen must be exposed to a Bunsen or Tirrill burner with a nominal 3/8 -inch I.D. tube adjusted to give a flame of 1 1/2 inches in height. The minimum flame temperature measured by a calibrated thermocouple pryometer in the center of the flame must be 1550 deg. F. The lower edge of the specimen must be three- fourths inch above the top edge of the burner. The flame must be applied to the center line of the lower edge of the specimen. For materials covered by Secs. 23.853(d)(3)(i) and 23.853(f), the flame must be applied for 60 seconds and then removed. For materials covered by Sec. 23.853(d)(3)(ii), the flame must be applied for 12 seconds and then removed. Flame time, burn length, and flaming time of drippings, if any, must be recorded. The burn length determined in accordance with paragraph (h) of this Appendix must be measured to the nearest one-tenth inch.
(e) Horizontal test. A minimum of three specimens must be tested and the results averaged. Each specimen must be supported horizontally. The exposed surface when installed in the airplane must be face down for the test. The specimen must be exposed to a Bunsen burner or Tirrill burner with a nominal 3/8 -inch I.D. tube adjusted to give a flame of 1 1/2 inches in height. The minimum flame temperature measured by a calibrated thermocouple pyrometer in the center of the flame must be 1550 deg. F. The specimen must be positioned so that the edge being tested is three-fourths of an inch above the top of, and on the center line of, the burner. The flame must be applied for 15 seconds and then removed. A minimum of 10 inches of the specimen must be used for timing purposes, approximately 1 1/2 inches must burn before the burning front reaches the timing zone, and the average burn rate must be recorded.
(f) Forty-five degree test. A minimum of three specimens must be tested and the results averaged. The specimens must be supported at an angle of 45 degrees to a horizontal surface. The exposed surface when installed in the aircraft must be face down for the test. The specimens must be exposed to a Bunsen or Tirrill burner with a nominal 3/8 inch I.D. tube adjusted to give a flame of 1 1/2 inches in height. The minimum flame temperature measured by a calibrated thermocouple pyrometer in the center of the flame must be 1550 deg.F. Suitable precautions must be taken to avoid drafts. The flame must be applied for 30 seconds with one-third contacting the material at the center of the specimen and then removed. Flame time, glow time, and whether the flame penetrates (passes through) the specimen must be recorded.
(g) Sixty-degree test. A minimum of three specimens of each wire specification (make and size) must be tested. The specimen of wire or cable (including insulation) must be placed at an angle of 60 degrees with the horizontal in the cabinet specified in paragraph (c) of this appendix, with the cabinet door open during the test or placed within a chamber approximately 2 feet high x 1 foot x 1 foot, open at the top and at one vertical side (front), that allows sufficient flow of air for complete combustion but is free from drafts. The specimen must be parallel to and approximately 6 inches from the front of the chamber. The lower end of the specimen must be held rigidly clamped. The upper end of the specimen must pass over a pulley or rod and must have an appropriate weight attached to it so that the specimen is held tautly throughout the flammability test. The test specimen span between lower clamp and upper pulley or rod must be 24 inches and must be marked 8 inches from the lower end to indicate the central point for flame application. A flame from a Bunsen or Tirrill burner must be applied for 30 seconds at the test mark. The burner must be mounted underneath the test mark on the specimen, perpendicular to the specimen and at an angle of 30 degrees to the vertical plane of the specimen. The burner must have a nominal bore of three-eighths inch, and must be adjusted to provide a three-inch-high flame with an inner cone approximately one-third of the flame height. The minimum temperature of the hottest portion of the flame, as measured with a calibrated thermocouple pyrometer, may not be less than 1,750 deg.F. The burner must be positioned so that the hottest portion of the flame is applied to the test mark on the wire. Flame time, burn length, and flaming time drippings, if any, must be recorded. The burn length determined in accordance with paragraph (h) of this appendix must be measured to the nearest one-tenth inch. Breaking of the wire specimen is not considered a failure.
(h) Burn length. Burn length is the distance from the original edge to the farthest evidence of damage to the test specimen due to flame impingement, including areas of partial or complete consumption, charring, or embrittlement, but not including areas sooted, stained, warped, or discolored, nor areas where material has shrunk or melted away from the heat source.
[Amdt. 23-23, 43 FR 50594, Oct. 30, 1978, as amended by Amdt. 23-34, 52 FR 1835, Jan. 15, 1987; 52 FR 34745, Sept. 14, 1987; Amdt. 23-49, 61 FR 5170, Feb. 9, 1996]​

 

[VanDy]

Not following you. We are still on the rozen visor STC for 1956 172 right?

I'm arguing that the STC is just for show, and not required for a minor alteration. Or heck even the Whelen LEDs replacing the old GE bulbs

You need to reread this article you posted earlier.

STC trumps
Major alteration/repair trumps
minor alteration/repair

That is in the link you posted and he is correct.

Rice Pierce http://www.aea.net/governmentaffairs/pdf/ViewFromWashingtonApr11.pdf

Stopped here and gave a class on determination of major vs minor alterations & repairs

To sum it up, add the word "certificated" to each of the items listed in part 43 apendix D.

Example. Changes to empty weigh or empty weight CG are not a major alteration unless there was a certificated empty weight or certificated empty weight CG. Changes to the certificated CG limits is major, Changes to certificated gross weights is major.

(xi) Changes to the empty weight or empty balance which result in an increase in the maximum certificated weight or center of gravity limits of the aircraft.


Adding or changing the electrical Load is not a major alteration, but changing the certificated voltage or capacity of the electrical system is.

(xii) Changes to the basic design of the fuel, oil, cooling, heating, cabin pressurization, electrical, hydraulic, de-icing, or exhaust systems.


etc.

So start looking through the certificated requirements of old CAR 3 and tell me how putting Rosen Sunvisors in my 1956 Cessna 172 is a major alteration?

Is it a critical part? Are there any strength & deformation requirements to structure we needed to show compliance with? Operating instructions that would require placard changes or Aircraft Flight Manual Supplement? Does it affect compliance with an AD? Does it affect an Approved Inspection Program (AAIP)? Does it affect an airworthiness limitation?

-VanDy

 

[RotorAndWing]

Not a case of Can't, it a case of won't

Yep, I figured as much..

Good Night Tom.

 

[bnt83]

FAR 23.853:
Appendix F to Part 23 — Test Procedure

Acceptable test procedure for self-extinguishing materials for showing compliance with Secs. 23.853, 23.855 and 23.1359.
(a) Conditioning. Specimens must be conditioned to 70 degrees F, plus or minus 5 degrees, and at 50 percent plus or minus 5 percent relative humidity until moisture equilibrium is reached or for 24 hours. Only one specimen at a time may be removed from the conditioning environment immediately before subjecting it to the flame.
(b) Specimen configuration. Except as provided for materials used in electrical wire and cable insulation and in small parts, materials must be tested either as a section cut from a fabricated part as installed in the airplane or as a specimen simulating a cut section, such as: a specimen cut from a flat sheet of the material or a model of the fabricated part. The specimen may be cut from any location in a fabricated part; however, fabricated units, such as sandwich panels, may not be separated for a test. The specimen thickness must be no thicker than the minimum thickness to be qualified for use in the airplane, except that:
(1) Thick foam parts, such as seat cushions, must be tested in 1/2 inch thickness;
(2) when showing compliance with Sec. 23.853(d)(3)(v) for materials used in small parts that must be tested, the materials must be tested in no more than 1/8 inch thickness;
(3) when showing compliance with Sec. 23.1359(c) for materials used in electrical wire and cable insulation, the wire and cable specimens must be the same size as used in the airplane. In the case of fabrics, both the warp and fill direction of the weave must be tested to determine the most critical flammability conditions. When performing the tests prescribed in paragraphs (d) and (e) of this appendix, the specimen must be mounted in a metal frame so that (1) in the vertical tests of paragraph (d) of this appendix, the two long edges and the upper edge are held securely; (2) in the horizontal test of paragraph (e) of this appendix, the two long edges and the edge away from the flame are held securely; (3) the exposed area of the specimen is at least 2 inches wide and 12 inches long, unless the actual size used in the airplane is smaller; and (4) the edge to which the burner flame is applied must not consist of the finished or protected edge of the specimen but must be representative of the actual cross section of the material or part installed in the airplane. When performing the test prescribed in paragraph (f) of this appendix, the specimen must be mounted in metal frame so that all four edges are held securely and the exposed area of the specimen is at least 8 inches by 8 inches.
(c) Apparatus. Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this Appendix, tests must be conducted in a draft-free cabinet in accordance with Federal Test Method Standard 191 Method 5903 (revised Method 5902) which is available from the General Services Administration, Business Service Center, Region 3, Seventh and D Streets SW., Washington, D.C. 20407, or with some other approved equivalent method. Specimens which are too large for the cabinet must be tested in similar draft-free conditions.
(d) Vertical test. A minimum of three specimens must be tested and the results averaged. For fabrics, the direction of weave corresponding to the most critical flammability conditions must be parallel to the longest dimension. Each specimen must be supported vertically. The specimen must be exposed to a Bunsen or Tirrill burner with a nominal 3/8 -inch I.D. tube adjusted to give a flame of 1 1/2 inches in height. The minimum flame temperature measured by a calibrated thermocouple pryometer in the center of the flame must be 1550 deg. F. The lower edge of the specimen must be three- fourths inch above the top edge of the burner. The flame must be applied to the center line of the lower edge of the specimen. For materials covered by Secs. 23.853(d)(3)(i) and 23.853(f), the flame must be applied for 60 seconds and then removed. For materials covered by Sec. 23.853(d)(3)(ii), the flame must be applied for 12 seconds and then removed. Flame time, burn length, and flaming time of drippings, if any, must be recorded. The burn length determined in accordance with paragraph (h) of this Appendix must be measured to the nearest one-tenth inch.
(e) Horizontal test. A minimum of three specimens must be tested and the results averaged. Each specimen must be supported horizontally. The exposed surface when installed in the airplane must be face down for the test. The specimen must be exposed to a Bunsen burner or Tirrill burner with a nominal 3/8 -inch I.D. tube adjusted to give a flame of 1 1/2 inches in height. The minimum flame temperature measured by a calibrated thermocouple pyrometer in the center of the flame must be 1550 deg. F. The specimen must be positioned so that the edge being tested is three-fourths of an inch above the top of, and on the center line of, the burner. The flame must be applied for 15 seconds and then removed. A minimum of 10 inches of the specimen must be used for timing purposes, approximately 1 1/2 inches must burn before the burning front reaches the timing zone, and the average burn rate must be recorded.
(f) Forty-five degree test. A minimum of three specimens must be tested and the results averaged. The specimens must be supported at an angle of 45 degrees to a horizontal surface. The exposed surface when installed in the aircraft must be face down for the test. The specimens must be exposed to a Bunsen or Tirrill burner with a nominal 3/8 inch I.D. tube adjusted to give a flame of 1 1/2 inches in height. The minimum flame temperature measured by a calibrated thermocouple pyrometer in the center of the flame must be 1550 deg.F. Suitable precautions must be taken to avoid drafts. The flame must be applied for 30 seconds with one-third contacting the material at the center of the specimen and then removed. Flame time, glow time, and whether the flame penetrates (passes through) the specimen must be recorded.
(g) Sixty-degree test. A minimum of three specimens of each wire specification (make and size) must be tested. The specimen of wire or cable (including insulation) must be placed at an angle of 60 degrees with the horizontal in the cabinet specified in paragraph (c) of this appendix, with the cabinet door open during the test or placed within a chamber approximately 2 feet high x 1 foot x 1 foot, open at the top and at one vertical side (front), that allows sufficient flow of air for complete combustion but is free from drafts. The specimen must be parallel to and approximately 6 inches from the front of the chamber. The lower end of the specimen must be held rigidly clamped. The upper end of the specimen must pass over a pulley or rod and must have an appropriate weight attached to it so that the specimen is held tautly throughout the flammability test. The test specimen span between lower clamp and upper pulley or rod must be 24 inches and must be marked 8 inches from the lower end to indicate the central point for flame application. A flame from a Bunsen or Tirrill burner must be applied for 30 seconds at the test mark. The burner must be mounted underneath the test mark on the specimen, perpendicular to the specimen and at an angle of 30 degrees to the vertical plane of the specimen. The burner must have a nominal bore of three-eighths inch, and must be adjusted to provide a three-inch-high flame with an inner cone approximately one-third of the flame height. The minimum temperature of the hottest portion of the flame, as measured with a calibrated thermocouple pyrometer, may not be less than 1,750 deg.F. The burner must be positioned so that the hottest portion of the flame is applied to the test mark on the wire. Flame time, burn length, and flaming time drippings, if any, must be recorded. The burn length determined in accordance with paragraph (h) of this appendix must be measured to the nearest one-tenth inch. Breaking of the wire specimen is not considered a failure.
(h) Burn length. Burn length is the distance from the original edge to the farthest evidence of damage to the test specimen due to flame impingement, including areas of partial or complete consumption, charring, or embrittlement, but not including areas sooted, stained, warped, or discolored, nor areas where material has shrunk or melted away from the heat source.

[Amdt. 23-23, 43 FR 50594, Oct. 30, 1978, as amended by Amdt. 23-34, 52 FR 1835, Jan. 15, 1987; 52 FR 34745, Sept. 14, 1987; Amdt. 23-49, 61 FR 5170, Feb. 9, 1996]​

How does that apply to CAR 3? If we send a test article to a DER who is only rated for Part 23 and not CAR 3, they will burn it?

 

[Tom-D]

Yep, I figured as much..

Good Night Tom.

Well your the one that changed the thread to what I would do, and can't prove there is a requirement for burn certs.

So show me where the regulations say I can't use my judgment for the interior fabric.

 

[Tom-D]

FAR 23.853:
Appendix F to Part 23 — Test Procedure

​

Acceptable test procedure for self-extinguishing materials for showing compliance with Secs. 23.853, 23.855 and 23.1359.
(a) Conditioning. Specimens must be conditioned to 70 degrees F, plus or minus 5 degrees, and at 50 percent plus or minus 5 percent relative humidity until moisture equilibrium is reached or for 24 hours. Only one specimen at a time may be removed from the conditioning environment immediately before subjecting it to the flame.
(b) Specimen configuration. Except as provided for materials used in electrical wire and cable insulation and in small parts, materials must be tested either as a section cut from a fabricated part as installed in the airplane or as a specimen simulating a cut section, such as: a specimen cut from a flat sheet of the material or a model of the fabricated part. The specimen may be cut from any location in a fabricated part; however, fabricated units, such as sandwich panels, may not be separated for a test. The specimen thickness must be no thicker than the minimum thickness to be qualified for use in the airplane, except that:
(1) Thick foam parts, such as seat cushions, must be tested in 1/2 inch thickness;
(2) when showing compliance with Sec. 23.853(d)(3)(v) for materials used in small parts that must be tested, the materials must be tested in no more than 1/8 inch thickness;
(3) when showing compliance with Sec. 23.1359(c) for materials used in electrical wire and cable insulation, the wire and cable specimens must be the same size as used in the airplane. In the case of fabrics, both the warp and fill direction of the weave must be tested to determine the most critical flammability conditions. When performing the tests prescribed in paragraphs (d) and (e) of this appendix, the specimen must be mounted in a metal frame so that (1) in the vertical tests of paragraph (d) of this appendix, the two long edges and the upper edge are held securely; (2) in the horizontal test of paragraph (e) of this appendix, the two long edges and the edge away from the flame are held securely; (3) the exposed area of the specimen is at least 2 inches wide and 12 inches long, unless the actual size used in the airplane is smaller; and (4) the edge to which the burner flame is applied must not consist of the finished or protected edge of the specimen but must be representative of the actual cross section of the material or part installed in the airplane. When performing the test prescribed in paragraph (f) of this appendix, the specimen must be mounted in metal frame so that all four edges are held securely and the exposed area of the specimen is at least 8 inches by 8 inches.
(c) Apparatus. Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this Appendix, tests must be conducted in a draft-free cabinet in accordance with Federal Test Method Standard 191 Method 5903 (revised Method 5902) which is available from the General Services Administration, Business Service Center, Region 3, Seventh and D Streets SW., Washington, D.C. 20407, or with some other approved equivalent method. Specimens which are too large for the cabinet must be tested in similar draft-free conditions.
(d) Vertical test. A minimum of three specimens must be tested and the results averaged. For fabrics, the direction of weave corresponding to the most critical flammability conditions must be parallel to the longest dimension. Each specimen must be supported vertically. The specimen must be exposed to a Bunsen or Tirrill burner with a nominal 3/8 -inch I.D. tube adjusted to give a flame of 1 1/2 inches in height. The minimum flame temperature measured by a calibrated thermocouple pryometer in the center of the flame must be 1550 deg. F. The lower edge of the specimen must be three- fourths inch above the top edge of the burner. The flame must be applied to the center line of the lower edge of the specimen. For materials covered by Secs. 23.853(d)(3)(i) and 23.853(f), the flame must be applied for 60 seconds and then removed. For materials covered by Sec. 23.853(d)(3)(ii), the flame must be applied for 12 seconds and then removed. Flame time, burn length, and flaming time of drippings, if any, must be recorded. The burn length determined in accordance with paragraph (h) of this Appendix must be measured to the nearest one-tenth inch.
(e) Horizontal test. A minimum of three specimens must be tested and the results averaged. Each specimen must be supported horizontally. The exposed surface when installed in the airplane must be face down for the test. The specimen must be exposed to a Bunsen burner or Tirrill burner with a nominal 3/8 -inch I.D. tube adjusted to give a flame of 1 1/2 inches in height. The minimum flame temperature measured by a calibrated thermocouple pyrometer in the center of the flame must be 1550 deg. F. The specimen must be positioned so that the edge being tested is three-fourths of an inch above the top of, and on the center line of, the burner. The flame must be applied for 15 seconds and then removed. A minimum of 10 inches of the specimen must be used for timing purposes, approximately 1 1/2 inches must burn before the burning front reaches the timing zone, and the average burn rate must be recorded.
(f) Forty-five degree test. A minimum of three specimens must be tested and the results averaged. The specimens must be supported at an angle of 45 degrees to a horizontal surface. The exposed surface when installed in the aircraft must be face down for the test. The specimens must be exposed to a Bunsen or Tirrill burner with a nominal 3/8 inch I.D. tube adjusted to give a flame of 1 1/2 inches in height. The minimum flame temperature measured by a calibrated thermocouple pyrometer in the center of the flame must be 1550 deg.F. Suitable precautions must be taken to avoid drafts. The flame must be applied for 30 seconds with one-third contacting the material at the center of the specimen and then removed. Flame time, glow time, and whether the flame penetrates (passes through) the specimen must be recorded.
(g) Sixty-degree test. A minimum of three specimens of each wire specification (make and size) must be tested. The specimen of wire or cable (including insulation) must be placed at an angle of 60 degrees with the horizontal in the cabinet specified in paragraph (c) of this appendix, with the cabinet door open during the test or placed within a chamber approximately 2 feet high x 1 foot x 1 foot, open at the top and at one vertical side (front), that allows sufficient flow of air for complete combustion but is free from drafts. The specimen must be parallel to and approximately 6 inches from the front of the chamber. The lower end of the specimen must be held rigidly clamped. The upper end of the specimen must pass over a pulley or rod and must have an appropriate weight attached to it so that the specimen is held tautly throughout the flammability test. The test specimen span between lower clamp and upper pulley or rod must be 24 inches and must be marked 8 inches from the lower end to indicate the central point for flame application. A flame from a Bunsen or Tirrill burner must be applied for 30 seconds at the test mark. The burner must be mounted underneath the test mark on the specimen, perpendicular to the specimen and at an angle of 30 degrees to the vertical plane of the specimen. The burner must have a nominal bore of three-eighths inch, and must be adjusted to provide a three-inch-high flame with an inner cone approximately one-third of the flame height. The minimum temperature of the hottest portion of the flame, as measured with a calibrated thermocouple pyrometer, may not be less than 1,750 deg.F. The burner must be positioned so that the hottest portion of the flame is applied to the test mark on the wire. Flame time, burn length, and flaming time drippings, if any, must be recorded. The burn length determined in accordance with paragraph (h) of this appendix must be measured to the nearest one-tenth inch. Breaking of the wire specimen is not considered a failure.
(h) Burn length. Burn length is the distance from the original edge to the farthest evidence of damage to the test specimen due to flame impingement, including areas of partial or complete consumption, charring, or embrittlement, but not including areas sooted, stained, warped, or discolored, nor areas where material has shrunk or melted away from the heat source.
[Amdt. 23-23, 43 FR 50594, Oct. 30, 1978, as amended by Amdt. 23-34, 52 FR 1835, Jan. 15, 1987; 52 FR 34745, Sept. 14, 1987; Amdt. 23-49, 61 FR 5170, Feb. 9, 1996]​

good reference for some one who needs to know.

 

[RotorAndWing]

How does that apply to CAR 3? If we send a test article to a DER who is only rated for Part 23 and not CAR 3, they will burn it?

The key words is "Equivalent Level of Safety". You could do the test this way and it exceeds the requirement for the CAR3.

BTW, any fabric supplier for automotive interiors will supply the certification documents upon request and with that you have the approved data that's needed.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Well your the one that changed the thread to what I would do, and can't prove there is a requirement for burn certs.

So show me where the regulations say I can't use my judgment for the interior fabric.

OK, fair enough. Again, please give us an example of how you would make that logbook entry.

It's a very simple request.