LANDING HELP

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bristheone

Filing Flight Plan
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bristheone
Just started my landings, and can't seem to successfully do my rectangular approach at slow speed without loosing too much speed. Also about twenty-thirty feet from Touch down i tend to pull nose up cuz i realize I'm to fast then push nose down way too much and instructor takes over. Ideas on how to stop myself from doing this? Ive tried but it seems instinct is to screw up the landing.
 
Trim is you friend...and a good instructor. Have you discussed this with your CFI?

What are your basic procedures for the pattern? Gotta have a game plan, right? Here's mine (your's may vary):

Assuming a Cezzna or Peeper, 1,800 rpm on downwind, trim for level flight. Abeam the touchdown point, reduce throttle to 1,200 to 1,400 rpm, give it the first notch (10*) of flaps, throttle and trim for ~400 fpm descent at 75 kts. Turn to base at 45* off touchdown point, second notch of flaps (20* in the Cezzna), trim for 70 kts, check descent rate (adjust throttle if necessary) there should be very little change of trim and throttle. Turn final, flaps to 30* on the Cezzna, flaps full on the Peeper, trim for 65 kts, check descent rate. As you approach the ground get the throttle out and start slowing, about 55 to 60 kts over the threshold is okay. Continue descent to roundout and landing. Yer butt will be about 3 feet off the ground on roll-out so try to be sure the touchdown is in the 3 to 4 foot range. Try to touchdown much higher and things get ugly.
 
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You need to be on speed all the way down and trimmed so that you are not speeding up at 20 feet.
 
It boils down to practice.
Not fun to hear this but it will work itself out over time.
It just kind of starts to click after lots of repetition.

Oh also, trim
 
I'm assuming that your instructor worked with you on climbs, turns, descents, descending turns, etc? If so, there is a reason. Those are fundamentals used in the traffic pattern. Remember what you learned at altitude and apply it to your traffic pattern. Pitch for your airspeed and trim to keep it where you want it.

As the others have said, it takes practice. Once you get close to the ground and are working on the round out/flare you only get a few seconds of practice per landing, so it takes a few to figure things out.

One thing I'm wondering is if you're having trouble judging your height above the ground? You mention leveling off high to bleed speed off but I'm wondering if it is more of a situation where you're subconsciously doing it thinking the ground is rushing up too fast? Getting the correct sight picture can take some practice. It helps if you can see over the instrument panel well so make sure the seat is high enough assuming it is adjustable.
 
bristheone said:
............Ive tried but it seems instinct is to screw up the landing.
Click to expand...

Exactly. There is nothing "natural" about flying. We evolved long before the airplane was invented. Our survival instincts are pre wired. In order to survive today we sometimes have to over ride "survival instincts." You'll be fine. Like everyone is saying just keep at it. Practice and repetition. You are not only learning something new, you are unlearning something old. That takes time and repetition.
 
agree with others.

Trim will help you control/maintain speed with less changes necessary.
 
Don't try to land, just try to fly the plane all the wha down the runway 6" above the deck, once you're runway assured pull the power, keep your aim point on the runway in the same place in your windshield, if it stsrta getting high in your windshield, you're getting too low, and vise versa. Once you nice and low, just look all the way down the runway at the infinity point (the point all the way down the runway which appears to move the least) and with the power out try to fly to that point, wait for the mains to touch.


Once you pull the yoke back,pretend there is a ratchet and you can out it back forward again, if you sink a little just burp in a quick shot of power.

Ailerons to keep you on the centerline,rudder to keep you pointing down the runway.
 
Practice, practice, practice. I posted a very similar thread like this about a year ago. One day it just started clicking. Hang in there.
 
If you are going too slow, go faster. How do you go faster? Push the nose down (either add power or not, still have to push the nose down). Quick glances at the airspeed indicator. Actually, coming in too fast is better than coming in too slow, although of course, coming in just right is what you want.
 
Do some low approaches. Work your power and pitch and fly over the runway a few feet off the ground. Get your sight picture down first then actually try to land the plane.
 
Good advice here so far, but if you need to ask the question here, maybe you need to re-evaluate your instructor... Other than that... It's really just a matter of practice. Learn to trim properly and remember that once you establish an airspeed your altitude is controlled with the throttle, not the yoke... moving the yoke will disturb the airspeed that you've trimmed for earlier... adding and reducing the power will have a negligible effect on speed but will adjust your glide.
 
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Pre-solo student pilot here who is also just starting to work on landings. Has your instructor provided you with step-by-step pattern flying instructions similar to what "Throttle" responded with? If not you should have that. Flying the pattern should be almost mechanical in nature.

Good luck!
 
Two things that helped me. Try not to land and Dr Bruce's butt sink hold off. Every time you feel your butt sink pull back enough to stop the sink. But for either you have to get closer to the runway. Getting as close as you need to be can be scary at first. Ground come up pretty fast. No too long and you'll wonder what all the fuss is about.
 
You need to control your airspeed in the turns, where you are most likely to get into trouble. It seems natural to keep checking the airspeed indicator, but you really need to be looking out the window. So, set up a situation where you can look out the window and see your airspeed.

First, you are going to make a turn from downwind to base. Check ahead for oncoming traffic and to the right for traffic. Then look to the left and pick out an aiming point over your left shoulder on or near the horizon. Quick glance at airspeed to make sure you are ok, then watching your nose on the horizon, slide that nose to the left making sure it doesn't drop or rise in the turn, until you are pointed straight at your aiming point. Learn to apply a little rudder pressure in the turn, too. Level the wings, making sure the nose doesn't drop or rise. Quick glance at airspeed again. You should have stayed right on. What is happening is that all those theories you learned about p-factor, left-turning tendencies, spilling lift in a turn, etc. are now being applied in the practical world. But, you don't need to worry about theory. All you have to do is to keep that nose going around steadily and in a controlled manner.

Once you are on base, you should know whether you are high, low, or on target. Adjust the nose slightly if necessary, then repeat the procedure to get turned to final. Naturally, the runway is going to be in line with your target point (adjusted for crosswind). Slide that nose to the left, keeping a steady distance below the horizon, then get lined up properly. Quick check the airspeed. It should be spot on.

Now concentrate on your visual picture for landing.
 
Set up your sight line for the landing with touch down spot,trim to maintain speed,try to not tense up during the final. Takes practice,and patience.
 
I had issues with landing when I was training and I'll tell you what worked for me.

I sat in a chair and flew the pattern in my head. Nothing but me and the chair, I sat there and visualized each step of the process, from pattern entry, to calls necessary (depending on towered or non towered). Power reductions,configurations, flaps, crab angle, I just thought about each step spent the time as though I were in the pattern flying each leg, the downwind, cross wind, final, thinking about when to add more flap, when to turn,airspeeds and where to look. I would do it a couple times for no wind and cross winds. I would "practice" crabbing and slips. I soloed on the second lesson after trying this. I found I worried less about what to do and spent more time reacting to the inevitable adjustments needed when in the pattern. Don't give up, you'll get there.
 
PaulS said:
I had issues with landing when I was training and I'll tell you what worked for me.

I sat in a chair and flew the pattern in my head. Nothing but me and the chair, I sat there and visualized each step of the process, from pattern entry, to calls necessary (depending on towered or non towered). Power reductions,configurations, flaps, crab angle, I just thought about each step spent the time as though I were in the pattern flying each leg, the downwind, cross wind, final, thinking about when to add more flap, when to turn,airspeeds and where to look. I would do it a couple times for no wind and cross winds. I would "practice" crabbing and slips. I soloed on the second lesson after trying this. I found I worried less about what to do and spent more time reacting to the inevitable adjustments needed when in the pattern. Don't give up, you'll get there.
Click to expand...

Athletes do this "visualizing." I'm going to do it next time I've gone a few months without flying and see if knocks a little of the rust off before even getting in the plane. I'll bet it's going to help.
 
Another thing, you don't really flare, at least what it sounds like - upward motion. I think the Brits call it rounding off/out. Much better name IMHO.
 
Just a note, the op states 20-30 feet from touchdown is where the issue is. Too late to fiddle with trim at that stage (for a student pilot).

By that distance/height you should have the plane slowed down to around 60 kts, assuming basic trainer. If you are a bit fast, that's the time to pull the throttle to idle if you haven't yet. If at idle already and still too fast, a little nudge back on the yoke is fine... but hold that nudge. Don't let it go. The plane will settle down, just be patient.

My cfi would constantly say "hold it ... hold it .... hold it..." referring to the yoke position. Nudging back a tad to get it to round out... then "hold it ... hold it .... hold it...".

Never apply forward pressure that close to the ground. Hold it, or nudge it back. Small nudge... see what the plane does. Let her settle.

Landing requires a lot of patience. Just keep on practicing, you will get it!
 
bristheone said:
Just started my landings, and can't seem to successfully do my rectangular approach at slow speed without loosing too much speed.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you're "chasing the needles". Don't expect the airplane to react immediately to a change in configuration or speed. The next time you get the airplane stable at a speed you like, take note of the RPMs, flaps, and pitch. When you want to get back to that state the next time, pull the throttle back to the same RPMs and pitch up a little, get your flaps out, and settle to the same pitch you had the first time. Don't worry about small changes in speed and altitude and just give things a few seconds to reach equilibrium.

bristheone said:
Also about twenty-thirty feet from Touch down i tend to pull nose up cuz i realize I'm to fast
Click to expand...

Pay more attention to your airspeed on final. Pitch for speed, throttle for altitude on final. Hold your pitch and the speed should be be stable. Are you really coming in too fast or do you just perceive that you're fast?


bristheone said:
then push nose down way too much and instructor takes over.
Click to expand...

Don't do this. You don't land by pushing the nose down. You need to work on holding your pitch steady, moving it less, and letting the speed/energy bleed off on its own. You will get better with practice but don't just flail around -- try to understand the relationships between speed, energy, angle of attack, and lift. You're trading them for each other and the exchanges aren't always instant.
 
RobertSubnet said:
Pre-solo student pilot here who is also just starting to work on landings. Has your instructor provided you with step-by-step pattern flying instructions similar to what "Throttle" responded with? If not you should have that. Flying the pattern should be almost mechanical in nature.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

It's definitely done that way sometimes, but I disagree. A too-detailed plan makes you inflexible with actual conditions such as a strong headwind or a modest thermal on final.

Get your speeds right. Not just close. Use whatever inputs you need to do that, and stay lined up and aimed properly. Don't focus on instruments. Maybe an occasional glance. Most importantly, TRIM. That's the most likely problem for the OP.

The goal is to be on speed (61 knots in a 172), full flap, aimed, and stable from 200 feet up. Stable means you could have your hands in your lap, though I don't recommend it literally that close to the ground.
 
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Landings just starting to gel with me(I hope). For me, mine started getting better when I realized you have to get a lot closer to the runway than what I was anticipating, before you start the transition to level flight. Don't fire till you see the whites of their eyes!

I tend to have the opposite problem regarding speed in the pattern, you say you get too slow, and have a hard time keeping speed, I feel like I can never burn off the speed fast enough to get the descent going.

Good luck.
 
Just about every single pilot has had trouble landing in the beginning. Hell, my troubles continued for about 8 months. I had over 40 hours when it finally clicked. I think I had similar issues to you that when you are still high, about 20 feet, you start to flare too high and lose airspeed and then thump hard on the runway. Our natural reaction is to pull up when the ground gets closer. Or you flare at the correct height, but over-flare and balloon and then thump. LOL Or don't flare in time and bounce. You are probably going to experience all of these at some point. I think most of us had the similar feelings of despair with landings at some point, that it would never click. But it does at some point. Like others have said, keep practicing and have patience. The key is to know and follow a good landing procedure, (i.e. 80 kts downwind, 70 base, and 65 final for example).

And honestly, landings are an after-thought now.
 
Yup. If landings are an afterthought, you're getting complacent.

I'm pushing 400 hours now, and they still have my attention. Approach and landing are the riskiest phase of flight.
 
First, airspeed is king. Get your airspeed a right, and the rest of it will become much easier. Only took my CFI telling me that about 70 times before it started to click, lol.

Second, check out this video from Rod Machado: http://youtu.be/Rv5HEJCyTuk
 
ettsn said:
First, airspeed is king. Get your airspeed a right, and the rest of it will become much easier. Only took my CFI telling me that about 70 times before it started to click, lol.

Second, check out this video from Rod Machado: http://youtu.be/Rv5HEJCyTuk
Click to expand...

Airspeed and TRIM. Don't forget trim, or the airplane will fight you all the way down.
 
Clark1961 said:
Trim is you friend...and a good instructor. Have you discussed this with your CFI?

What are your basic procedures for the pattern? Gotta have a game plan, right? Here's mine (your's may vary):

Assuming a Cezzna or Peeper, 1,800 rpm on downwind, trim for level flight. Abeam the touchdown point, reduce throttle to 1,200 to 1,400 rpm, give it the first notch (10*) of flaps, throttle and trim for ~400 fpm descent at 75 kts. Turn to base at 45* off touchdown point, second notch of flaps (20* in the Cezzna), trim for 70 kts, check descent rate (adjust throttle if necessary) there should be very little change of trim and throttle. Turn final, flaps to 30* on the Cezzna, flaps full on the Peeper, trim for 65 kts, check descent rate. As you approach the ground get the throttle out and start slowing, about 55 to 60 kts over the threshold is okay. Continue descent to roundout and landing. Yer butt will be about 3 feet off the ground on roll-out so try to be sure the touchdown is in the 3 to 4 foot range. Try to touchdown much higher and things get ugly.
Click to expand...

This is basically what my instructor has me do. one thing missed, especially for super new folks (students) is that you want to start off at the speed, altitude, and configuration you want, because at our skill levels, it's going to be harder to "make up" for being off from the start.

So I start at 90 kts at TPA. If i'm at 100 kts on the downwind i'll be fighting the whole time to end up at 60 kts over the numbers at the right altitude. Yes, I can make it up, but for someone really new like the poster, maybe focus on starting how you want, then it should be a predictable series of changes you'll make to end up over the numbers at the speed and altitude you want.
 
ettsn said:
First, airspeed is king. Get your airspeed a right, and the rest of it will become much easier. Only took my CFI telling me that about 70 times before it started to click, lol.

Second, check out this video from Rod Machado: http://youtu.be/Rv5HEJCyTuk
Click to expand...

I thought that one was pretty good. I also like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZCBCxHj6Ds

The landing demonstrated isn't the best, but I like how it breaks down the aiming point, flare point and how you adjust your focus out away from the aiming point and down the runway as you transition.

I'm assuming the flare point is what the 'cutoff' is in the video, I've never heard it called that before.
 
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