landing help

Catalo

Catalo

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Catalo
I've been up the last two days with my instructor and logged about 20+ landings. I can't seem to get them consistent. if my approach is all over the place and is just bad i fix it last minute and the landing is center line and pretty smooth. However if the approach is stable lines up with the run way i either bounce it, sideload it or land on all 3. I was having issues with my crosswind correction today too much rudder. i should be soloing in the next week. my instructor said my landings are safe they just aren't consistent or all that smooth. any tips on maybe helping fix that? thanks
 
Not without flying with you so I can see what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong.
 
my biggest issue is a consistent flare. the rest of it isnt 100% but its still safe and within reason. My flare seems to be whats screwing me up. i either wait to long and have a hard landing or i flare too soon and ballon.
 
Are you trying to guess where the runway is, height wise? Focus on looking down the runway and let the runway come to the plane. In training I was trying to judge my height above the runway to gauge my flare and always ended up with a hard landing. Once I stopped doing this and just let the plane settle into the runway without forcing it, I had a remarkable improvement.

Just my own two cents from my experiences.
 
Use. The. Force.


your instructor wants safe, not perfect.
 
The important thing is you're safe. Just practice practice practice. You'll get it. There's a thread on here about students feeling like they were the worst their cfi had ever seen. It made me feel better to read and see that my mistakes were common among students.
 
Henning said:
Trim, trim, trim. Trim for 1.3Vso speed on final.
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i try to keep it trimmed properly. my speed stays at just about 65 knots. i just can't seem to get the flare down.
 
Consider that I am still a student and am working on my landings also. What has helped me is to concentrate on a consistent pull on the yoke. What I was doing was either pulling to a certain point, then stopping the pull and would land hard/flat, or I would pull too fast and balloon. For me, it is working on the slower consistent pull. I am still working on it, but that has helped.
 
mikeinbama said:
Consider that I am still a student and am working on my landings also. What has helped me is to concentrate on a consistent pull on the yoke. What I was doing was either pulling to a certain point, then stopping the pull and would land hard/flat, or I would pull too fast and balloon. For me, it is working on the slower consistent pull. I am still working on it, but that has helped.
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i'll try working on that.
 
Catalo said:
i try to keep it trimmed properly. my speed stays at just about 65 knots. i just can't seem to get the flare down.
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Keep trimming a it more, there's not much you're likely flying that doesn't land in the 40s. 65kts is fast for trying to land a 152/172/PA-28 below max gross so you have to hold level as you bleed that speed over the runway.

Learning to judge the flare is the same issue everyone has, you'll eventually get it. One thing I do when checking myself out is to roll down the runway full length in landing attitude. That burns in the sight picture that you're trying to transition to.
 
Henning said:
Keep trimming a it more, there's not much you're likely flying that doesn't land in the 40s. 65kts is fast for trying to land a 152/172/PA-28 below max gross so you have to hold level as you bleed that speed over the runway.

Learning to judge the flare is the same issue everyone has, you'll eventually get it. One thing I do when checking myself out is to roll down the runway full length in landing attitude. That burns in the sight picture that you're trying to transition to.
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so then i should be coming in slower? im usually at 65knts on final 60 on short final then pull power when the runway is made.
 
Catalo said:
it's a 172sp 180hp
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The engine is at idle, so it's power doesn't matter.

177RGs and 182s work well at 60 knots, too. That's 200 and 235 HP, respectively.

What does matter is weight. You're probably several hundred pounds below max.
 
One thing helped me. I think I got it from the AOPA board, before the blue board started.

Try not landing. Fly down the runway a few feet up and let the speed bleed off. Keep slowly pulling back till it won't fly any more. You just landed. I think it was Dr. Bruce who talked about the butt sink method. Feel you butt sink, pull back a little till your down.

Oh, and it will take quite a few hours after the check ride to really feel good about most landings. They're never all perfect.
 
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Last week I was at Olsen. Its a 28ft wide paved strip. I did a power off 180 to a slip and landed centerline and it was a nice smooth landing. My runway now is 150x5001. Could it be a site picture issue?
 
A lot of CFIs jump in too fast with landings IMO. My regular instructor and my dad (who is also a CFI) had me ask for low approaches and we did dozens of approaches just hovering over the runway, keeping the nose aligned with the centerline, using ailerons for drift, and working the throttle to go as low as possible without touching the runway. I did this before I even started doing any types of landings and it really helped me stay coordinated and get that sight picture down during the flare and approach. Maybe try this. It really helped me and I think you can benefit from it as well.
 
ejensen said:
One thing help me. I think I got it from the AOPA board, before the blue board started.



Try not landing. Fly down the runway a few feet up and let the speed bleed off. Keep slowly pulling back till it won't fly any more. You just landed. I think it was Dr. Bruce who talked about the butt sink method. Feel you butt sink pull back a little till you down.



Oh, and it will take quite a few hours after the check ride to really feel good about most landings. They're never all perfect.
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This helped me. Do everything in your power to keep the aircraft off the ground. Fly close to the ground but do not let it touch. Eventually you will run out of energy and land.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
No two landings are the same. When you flare your focus point should change down the runway along the horizon this should help toy feel the flare.
 
Catalo said:
so then i should be coming in slower? im usually at 65knts on final 60 on short final then pull power when the runway is made.
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Find your real speed for your weight conditions. Go up and do a landing stall noting the speed at the break. Go into the AFM to the CAS-IAS conversion table and find the corresponding CAS. Now multiply that by 1.5, 1.3, & 1.2 and conver those numbers back to IAS. These are your downwind (1.5Vso) and different speeds for final in the plane as you are flying it. These speeds change with weight, and the book speed is for Max Gross, you'll notice the number you come up with is lower.


The question is, "Are you trimmed for that 65 and 60 kts, or are you holding that pitch with muscle?"
 
I get into the habit where I start over thinking things and then it all goes to crap. Today for example I was doing steep turns for my CFI and they were good but he said I could work on keeping it within +- 50 ft. So when I was up solo I started doing all kinds of crazy steep turns and it felt more like acrobats then a check ride maneuver. This was because I started using A LOT of back pressure to pull me through and it was a hot mess. So I slowed it way down, back to the basic maneuver stuck the bank at 45 and made small adjustments and did them within PTS standards hitting my wake both times.

I went through this with landing as well. I fixed it two ways... one is I spent probably 4-5 hours on a Flight Simulator practicing a momentum of flaring. A bit of a challenge because you can't replicate the movement exactly but I noticed that I was trying to go from pitch down to a pitch up in about 2 seconds. So I focused on slowing it down in the game. The second think I did was not focus on RPMs, or what my AGL is at downwind, base, final ect. I focused almost entirely on nailing my speed, in that plane it was 60 or so on final.

So correct speed coupled with slowing down the flare I started nailing landings. Now I do it really without thinking about it, I watch my speed and make small adjustments to throttle or pitch to stay slightly above glide path. Realizing there's a lot of runway if I'm to fast I might do a slow flare and hold it at certain angles until the plane eases down and then I'll start increasing the flare. If I'm going too slow then maybe I do a faster flare to get me in a pitch up attitude before touching the runway.

Odd thing is once you get 'good' at one thing, something else you need to improve pops up.
 
...see if this video helps any. It helped me a ton when I was having a similar problem. My CFI explained this concept to me and then pointed me to the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5HEJCyTuk

As others mentioned though - if you don't have a stabilized approach (and Rob stresses the importance) then you'll have problems.

A good landing is a slow landing...
 
Thanks all the help. I had my pre solo check today. Did 4 landing. First one was good a little off center, second was a greaser. 3rd normal and 4th was power off 180. It was a little flat but otherwise good. I have my solo this Friday.
 
ejensen said:
One thing helped me. I think I got it from the AOPA board, before the blue board started.

Try not landing. Fly down the runway a few feet up and let the speed bleed off. Keep slowly pulling back till it won't fly any more. You just landed. I think it was Dr. Bruce who talked about the butt sink method. Feel you butt sink, pull back a little till your down.

Oh, and it will take quite a few hours after the check ride to really feel good about most landings. They're never all perfect.
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This. I found the same to be very helpful.
 
Catalo said:
my biggest issue is a consistent flare. the rest of it isnt 100% but its still safe and within reason. My flare seems to be whats screwing me up. i either wait to long and have a hard landing or i flare too soon and ballon.
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Paraphrased from an instructional video:

Perfect patterns make perfect landings, constantly correcting for airspeed/altitude etc is not how you want to be in the pattern and will divide your focus from making a nice smooth landing.

Stop flaring, small trainer aircraft don't flare, a 747 flares, Cessnas do not. Instead, use the word "transition". You transition to slow flight down the runway. This is the reason we practice slow flight, because the configuration and controls are practically identical in slow flight as they are in landing configuration (flaps etxtended, low airspeed, high AOA). Try to find a nice loooong runway with your instructor, get set up for the numbers on final and instead of trying to land, slow flight down the runway trying to keep it a foot from the deck. Without approaching the critical angle of attack, keep the nose up and essentially try to keep the plane from touching down. As your airspeed bleeds off (with power at idle) and thrust/lift will no longer be able to overcome weight/drag, you will slowly settle to the ground.

Hopefully that tidbit will help. And don't worry, consistency takes time and even very experienced pilots will botch a landing more often than most will admit!
 
I've posted to below advice to a few people looking for landing advice....

The key to landing I found is to let the plane land when it's ready. I look at landing like this. First, we want to slow the plane down. So any plane pitched down is not going to slow down naturally. The plane needs to level off first. So leveling the plane a few feet above the runway is step one. Then, the plane starts to sink. As some have mentioned, this is when you should gradually start to pull back just enough to return the plane to about the same angle as on initial take off. Don't jerk on the controls just gradually pull back. I think of this part as all I'm doing is ensuring the main wheels touch first. After pulling back the plane does the rest and touches down on the mains in a slight nose up attitude approximately the same attitude as initial climb out.

Planes are designed to fly and that's what they want to do. So I just think of the landing part as an agreement between me and the plane that we are done flying for today but just like anything else in life, both parties have to agree for the outcome to be successful!
 
Catalo said:
I've been up the last two days with my instructor and logged about 20+ landings. I can't seem to get them consistent.
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1. What the others have said about flying low over the runway works.
2. Measure the distance from the top of your head to the ceiling in fingers or hands, and make sure you're in the same position each time you fly.
3. Don't just flare and wait for the runway to come meet you ... keep flying

My problem was the second one early on ... once I made sure my sight picture wasn't changing, things got better. As you fly more, measuring won't be as important.
 
If you're short, consider whether you could use a boost for a better sight picture. I'm 5'6, and in most (but not all) of the 172s at my school, I need the extra two inches of a thick stadium cushion under me with the seat adjusted all the way up. Had similar pre solo landing inconsistencies, this fixed them immediately.
 
NOVA_Jim said:
If you're short, consider whether you could use a boost for a better sight picture. I'm 5'6, and in most (but not all) of the 172s at my school, I need the extra two inches of a thick stadium cushion under me with the seat adjusted all the way up. Had similar pre solo landing inconsistencies, this fixed them immediately.
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I'm currently 6'1" hopefully height isn't the issue. Thank you though

The sight picture thing does seem like it may be an issue. I'll work on keeping it consistent.
 
I have had similar issues. Its been said here already, but not quite in this fashion: Round Out, Eyes Out, Throttle Out.

Make your descent, then round out in ground effect, get your eyes down the runway, fly the plane, and make sure your throttle is out, you should end up on the runway in a pretty good position.

I found I was focusing too close to the plane when I needed to have a larger picture so I can actually see how far down I am. I ballooned a bunch, or plopped down too much. As soon as I was told the roundout eyes out throttle out... it worked and my last couple landings were fine. I'm going back up tomorrow... We'll see if it was a fluke.
 
I'd argue that your order is wrong for the typical trainer in a stabilized approach landing profile. Throttle out, round out, eyes out.

Flyer86 said:
I have had similar issues. Its been said here already, but not quite in this fashion: Round Out, Eyes Out, Throttle Out.

Make your descent, then round out in ground effect, get your eyes down the runway, fly the plane, and make sure your throttle is out, you should end up on the runway in a pretty good position.

I found I was focusing too close to the plane when I needed to have a larger picture so I can actually see how far down I am. I ballooned a bunch, or plopped down too much. As soon as I was told the roundout eyes out throttle out... it worked and my last couple landings were fine. I'm going back up tomorrow... We'll see if it was a fluke.
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asechrest said:
I'd argue that your order is wrong for the typical trainer in a stabilized approach landing profile. Throttle out, round out, eyes out.
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Agreed.

In general, I aim to have power to idle by at least 50', preferably 100' or more.

I have found both for my students and myself it makes one less thing to futz with so you can be concentrating on other more important stuff.
 
The best thing your instructor can do is allow you to make some low approaches and fly a few feet above the runway.. when you get comfortable with that then chop the power at anytime and will will land! :) Don't try and have a glorious perfect flare for now.. just get those 2 rear wheels to touch first!


Here is a video from the other night of me landing in my Cherokee 140.. I was a little fast and floated down the runway some.. but as you can see it's not a huge flare but rear wheels did touch first..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTb5arUSsoI


not all landings are gonna be perfect! Don't stress about it !
 
Thanks for all the help everyone. I solo'd last Friday. Something must have clicked because my landings seem to be much more consistent and smooth. Now if only that dang centerline was about 3 feet left...
 
Catalo said:
Thanks for all the help everyone. I solo'd last Friday. Something must have clicked because my landings seem to be much more consistent and smooth. Now if only that dang centerline was about 3 feet left...
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Congrats....trim was my biggest friend...power idle, nose up trim..hold the center (attempt anyways) and try to keep it flying as long as possible...

My first solo cross country was my break through, strange airport, no instructor.. I didn't have a choice but to get it right if I wanted to get home :wink2:
 
As someone transitioning from a Warrior (o-320 engine) to a Comanche (o-540 engine) I can attest to the importance of trim. The warrior you can manage without being properly trimmed. The Comanche is impractical to land smoothly without proper trim.

I bring this up because the sooner you get into a good routine, necessary or not, the easier future work will be
 
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