Landing 32 and 14!? What would you do?

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akhosh2

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akhosh2
The Facts:
Wind 6 knots From 330.
Airport recommends Landing runway 14 when winds are calm.
Uncontrolled Airport.

This past weekend I was practicing pattern work. After obtaining the weather the winds were from 330 at 6 knots. Upon turning to the CTAF at the Uncontrolled airport i noticed the 4 planes in the pattern were landing runway 14 even with the given winds... I know the airport recommends landing 14 in calm wind but I personally don't count calm for anything above 4 knots.

I feel my first mistake was just falling in line. I proceeded to take and use 14 like the rest in the pattern pilots even with the winds.

Next, two aircraft joined the CTAF from about 10 miles out and stated that they are lining up for a 45 for 32 (as the should properly assume based on the wind). I announced my downwind for 14 to ensure they knew what was actually being used. The other pilots then proceeded to announce there position with respect to landing 14 as well.

I immediately made a full stop to avoid any conflict between my aircraft and those inbound. After about 5 minutes the inbound aircraft changed there approach to 14... I still waited for them to land to ensure I avoided any conflict.

Once they were on the ground we continued to use 14 as other aircraft were.

What is one supposed to do in this situation? The airport is uncontrolled. The winds favor one runway but everyone is using another....? what would you have done, would you have made a comment on the CTAF? What would it have been?
 
If I needed to land on 32, I would've so stated that on the radio and invited others to join me if they prefer not to see traffic head-on.

Personally, I don't have issues with landing downwind, but you're probably quite happy you're not me. ;)
 
kgruber said:
I've turned the pattern around many times.

Just do it.
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kgruber,
What verbiage would you use to do this properly/effectively over the CTAF to get the other traffic to full stop and change direction?
 
MauleSkinner said:
If I needed to land on 32, I would've so stated that on the radio and invited others to join me if they prefer not to see traffic head-on.

Personally, I don't have issues with landing downwind, but you're probably quite happy you're not me. ;)
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Personally , in a mooney downwind on a 2200 foot runway I do have issues therefore I would not land downwind. It invites problems of a financial nature.
 
I have guided aircraft in the pattern (in shawnee, as the unicom operator) to flip directions a couple times on days fronts moved over, I just kept telling them the wind directions as they changed then recommended the other runway. For aircraft...not sure. I would probably mention it on the way in and ask if we were still using runway 14. Doesn't seem to take much to get people to switch although I've only done it from the ground.

The two aircraft didn't full stop, they did some maneuvering and turned the other direction, I didn't catch how though. I'd imagine departing the pattern and re-entering would be the safest way but not the fastest.
 
akhosh2 said:
kgruber,
What verbiage would you use to do this properly/effectively over the CTAF to get the other traffic to full stop and change direction?
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Simply announcing that you are going to land 32 is more often than not enough to change the lemming effect.

If they don't change they don't change, but if you aren't comfortable with the situation it is your prerogative to do what you feel safe.

There really isn't any specific verbiage that I am aware of in this situation.
 
According to TAF Terminal Aerodrome Forecast

Calm winds (three knots or less) are encoded as 00000KT.

from FAASafety.gov
For headwind components below 5 knots, treat all winds as calm.

So, the FAA does not even agree on what is "calm" winds.

You did the right thing, when in doubt be safe. When it comes to other people, even if you are "right" you may be creating an "unsafe" condition.
Turning the pattern around or landing with opposing traffic are potential problems for everyone.
 
If you don't feel good about landing 14, land 32.

Just communicate, no biggie, "hey guys winds are favoring 32, mind switching to 32"

I've done that a few times, never had a issue.
 
Happens every week or so at my home airport. Unless there's a > 10 knot tailwind, we land and depart 31. Every now and then someone announces they are inbound 13 because it has a 5 knot headwind. If I hear it I'll advise them otherwise. Some ignore it, some dont. Those who ignore it usually end up in a go-around.

Runway 13 has a pretty reasonable downhill slope. Combine that with the trees and buildings that change the wind and its usually too many factors to fight. Much easier to deal with a slight tail wind and an uphill slope
 
gitmo234 said:
Happens every week or so at my home airport. Unless there's a > 10 knot tailwind, we land and depart 31. Every now and then someone announces they are inbound 13 because it has a 5 knot headwind. If I hear it I'll advise them otherwise. Some ignore it, some dont. Those who ignore it usually end up in a go-around.

Runway 13 has a pretty reasonable downhill slope. Combine that with the trees and buildings that change the wind and its usually too many factors to fight. Much easier to deal with a slight tail wind and an uphill slope
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Depends on the plane and the pilot, yeah a go around or you getting yourself hit.
 
Same same here.... People are gonna land every which way. Call out your intent, reaffirm your intent, call all your legs and put it on the ground.

I fell into this trap once... And really landed long, stood on the brakes, chirped a tire or two and swore I'd never fall into that trap again. Everyone except me was doing touch and goes. They had no idea (or found out later) there was a 10 it tailwind.
 
akhosh2 said:
kgruber,
What verbiage would you use to do this properly/effectively over the CTAF to get the other traffic to full stop and change direction?
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First, understand that you don't get to play air traffic controller at a non-towered airport just because you decide your way is the correct one. Only thing you can do is what you thinks is correct for you and announce what you are doing.

That said, I have heard and sometimes used "The winds appear to favor Runway X" as an hinting intro to the self report of intended entry into the pattern.
 
Seanaldinho said:
This sounds like destin...?
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When was the last time you saw 4 knot winds at Destin in May? :eek: And since he didn't say two people ask "any traffic in the area please advise" I couldn't be Destin! :mad2::mad2:
 
Around here wind less than 10 knots means the traffic is whatever runway is closest to my hanger or tiedown.
 
overdrive148 said:
The two aircraft didn't full stop, they did some maneuvering and turned the other direction, I didn't catch how though. I'd imagine departing the pattern and re-entering would be the safest way but not the fastest.
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They probably continued upwind, and turned x-wind accross the numbers, then turned downwind for the other direction. :dunno:
That's what I'd have done anyway. ;)
 
N747JB said:
When was the last time you saw 4 knot winds at Destin in May? :eek: And since he didn't say two people ask "any traffic in the area please advise" I couldn't be Destin! :mad2::mad2:
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I use to be untying the airplane at 7 am and occasionally the winds would be that low. But you make a good point with the ATITAPA :rofl:
 
With a 60 Kt. landing speed the difference between a 10 knot tail wind vs 10 knot head wind is double the kinetic energy with regard to a fixed object on the ground.
 
The winds where not calm,would have used 32 to a full stop. The arriving aircraft where intimidated,when in reality ,they where choosing the proper runway.
 
I suppose all it takes is one plane starting off in calm conditions using 14, and everyone else just falls in line with wind building to favor the opposite direction.

At my home drone 34 is the preferred runway, and everyone has their own definition of "calm". Sometimes get planes trying to take off and land opposite directions. One time I was just lifting off from 16, and a guy came in on base trying to land 34. I got pretty loud pretty quick on the radio. It's one of those opposite direction patterns too, my left x-wind and his right base. Would put us nose to nose.
 
That radio stuff is annoying. I have had two close calls with aircraft and both instances were people not using or having broken radios. One was a glider on final with an intersecting airport. Their radio was broken which explained the garble I was getting every now and then as I called out my position. The other was a CAP bird who took off as I was crosswind. He went about 500 feet under me. Never a radio call to be heard. I know I was on the right frequency because others on the channel at the field confirmed he made no radio calls
 
I think you did just fine, especially since there were more planes already in the pattern, just get yourself out of the mix. There is no set runway to use at an uncontrolled airport. You can also call out, "Hey, how about we turn this pattern around with the new wind and use 32?" Typically that gets it done pretty easily.
 
The taildragger I fly really hates landing with a tailwind over 5knts.
It increases the landing distance considerably, and the wings quit flying very quickly leading to some quick footwork to keep everything pointed down the runway.

I would let those in the pattern for a downwind runway that I prefer to land into the wind.
 
JimNtexas said:
Around here wind less than 10 knots means the traffic is whatever runway is closest to my hanger or tiedown.
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Sounds eminently reasonable to me. That's exactly the reason that, for years, only transients doing practice take offs and landings seemed to use the north-south runway at KFTG, no matter how hard the wind was blowing cross wind to 8-26. Too far to taxi to FBO, fuel, hangars and tie-downs.
 
6kts is a non issue but in a 90* crossing wind my habit is to fly the base leg into the wind so assuming a standard pattern THAT would determine my choice of runway.
 
One thing you can do is ask what the winds are doing down at the surface, or obviously check the windsock if you're close enough. It may be that the ASOS is reporting 330 at 6 but the windsock is just flopping around at the end of the runway.

In other words, there could be a reason traffic is using the "wrong" runway, particularly if that direction is favorable for other reasons (runway slope, trees, etc).

Or, more likely, the first guy into the pattern took 14 and it just "stuck" even as the winds picked up. Don't be afraid to suggest changing. It may be that the other pilots are all wishing someone would speak up.
 
I would have announced in the clearest possible voice that I was making standard entry for 32, and continue to announce 32 landing in each transmission and landed on 32. I don't fly other pilots planes for them, I fly mine. If there's a conflict, it's up to the parties in the air to resolve it. I might have to go around, the other traffic might have to go around, we both might have to go around, but if the wind favors runway 32 by ~12 knots, I'm taking the upwind appr and landing every time.

Sorry.

YMMV, don't try this at home, pro driver closed course, objects in mirror are larger, and may cause anal leakage.
 
Seanaldinho said:
I use to be untying the airplane at 7 am and occasionally the winds would be that low. But you make a good point with the ATITAPA :rofl:
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I heard a jet call ATITAPA on Friday, with 3 in the pattern all announcing position and everybody doing a good job with seperation! :mad2:
 
I'd go elsewhere until it got sorted out. Call me chicken****, I can stand it.
 
Sometimes it's a spectator sport:

A couple years ago I watched two planes come into an uncontrolled field and land downwind. The first guy was a local, he landed downwind so he'd have a short taxi to his hangar, his buddy was right behind him.

First guy lands, no problem, rolls out and pulls off the rwy right in front of his hangar. Second guy goes way long, goes around, and tries again. Same result, goes around and tries again. Same thing. First guy comes on the radio and mentions the tail wind, second guy says, "Oh, THAT'S the problem..."
 
akhosh2 said:
kgruber,
What verbiage would you use to do this properly/effectively over the CTAF to get the other traffic to full stop and change direction?
Click to expand...

Henning said:
...... You can also call out, "Hey, how about we turn this pattern around with the new wind and use 32?" Typically that gets it done pretty easily.
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That does it in our area. Occasionally I'll 360 outside the pattern until things get sorted out. I wouldn't recommend self announcing and barreling towards the opposite runway as has been recommended here a couple of times (hope and change won't work).
 
N747JB said:
I heard a jet call ATITAPA on Friday, with 3 in the pattern all announcing position and everybody doing a good job with seperation! :mad2:
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Thats all situation normal then. The worst part is, sometimes you hear eglin even tell them before the freq change " I see three in the pattern currently"
 
Seanaldinho said:
Thats all situation normal then. The worst part is, sometimes you hear eglin even tell them before the freq change " I see three in the pattern currently"
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It hasn't changed in the 25 years I've been flying down here! :rolleyes:
 
Unit74 said:
Same same here.... People are gonna land every which way. Call out your intent, reaffirm your intent, call all your legs and put it on the ground.

I fell into this trap once... And really landed long, stood on the brakes, chirped a tire or two and swore I'd never fall into that trap again. Everyone except me was doing touch and goes. They had no idea (or found out later) there was a 10 it tailwind.
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Yep. I landed once with a tailwind, but it was a short field approach and ended up in a go-around as I watched half the runway go underneath me. No sock at the airport, assumed the wind was the same as the airport I'd just left 5 miles away. Bad assumption. The go-around was less than stellar as well due to the tailwind... Instructor chewed my ass big time and I deserved it.

I don't land with a tailwind period end of story, ever. 6 knots is significant enough that I can't understand given the direction, why everyone would be using 14 instead of utilizing a near-direct headwind by using 32.
 
kgruber said:
I've turned the pattern around many times.



Just do it.
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Agreed. Usually all it takes is someone hinting that they're going to go the other way in the great tango, and everyone will switch.

No point in being a lemming in life or in the pattern.
 
steingar said:
I'd go elsewhere until it got sorted out. Call me chicken****, I can stand it.
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I am pretty quick to bug out and let others sort things out with one less aircraft in the way, so you can call me chicken too, it doesn't bother me.

I have on two occasions in the past three years been sitting at one end of the field ready to take off into the wind only to hear someone landing downwind, I can live with that, but then I hear a second aircraft announce landing into the wind. Basically two aircraft calling final head on with the other. I have calmly stated, "I just heard an aircraft on final for 2 and an aircraft on final for 20, yall might want to sort this thing out." I do not want to be an airtraffic controller but neither do I want to watch what might unfold in front of me or on top of me. I also once had an aircraft behind me get angry over my unwillingness to jump into the frey till they had sorted things out. I didn't get to upset over that either.
 
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