Korean 777 Down in SFO

Backpedaling?

No, it is WRONG to ASSUME that race is the cause here without external evidence. That is the complete absolute sum total of everything I said here on the topic.

And you're assuming that it plays a role here. DID cultural norms play a role in defeating CRM in this accident? If you claim you know the answer right now, you're either one of the four pilots involved, or you're relying on a racist assumption.

I did not say ANYWHERE that race had a factor. If you can't understand how cultural norms would effect CRM then perhaps you don't have any kind of a grasp as to what it is and how it is used in Part 121 flying.

"Kumbah ya my lord, Kumbah ya ........"
 
Gentlemen, I was being kind. I already know that Wayne is so self-absorbed that he couldn't be bothered to realize that he copied-and-pasted in his earlier post 411 the same thing that Rex Kramer copied-and-pasted a day earlier in post 385. (Neither of which is the post I was being snarky about.) I saw no reason to mention his odd duplication then, but finally decided to make note of the self-irony on seeing him posting yet another copy-and-paste chest-pounding diatribe outraged at the obvious.

But it is true these things are over my head. For example, I really don't know what to make of the following, though, since it seems to imply the author of the quoted text might not be untainted by the same sins he feels has been committed in this "accident":

"During my twenty-three years with FedEx, I was a Captain Line Check

Airman for over fifteen of those years and have performed IOE with literally a couple hundred pilots who were moving into the B-727.
[...]
We have destroyed nine widebody aircraft at FedEx in the past fifteen or sixteen years . . . all . . . every one . . . due to poor flying skills."


Jim,
Not very many people here agree with you. Why do you think that is ?
Art
 
I did not say ANYWHERE that race had a factor. If you can't understand how cultural norms would effect CRM then perhaps you don't have any kind of a grasp as to what it is and how it is used in Part 121 flying.
There's a big difference, though, between agreeing that cultural norms COULD affect CRM and reaching the conclusion that they were primarily, or even significantly, to blame in THIS particular case.
 
I don't object to "culture" being worked (correctly) into training and human factors responses to the accident, provided independent evidence really does point to that as a factor. I do object to culture being blamed in the absence of other evidence. The latter is indeed racist, and more importantly, useless in preventing accidents. And it WAS done in this thread. If you don't think an assumption about race "explaining" this accident is racist, I'd be very interested in what you think racism is. No, it is not limited to burning crosses on people's lawns.

No one has made a claim that culture is to blame in the absence of other evidence... or that culture or race "explain" the accident.

The issue of culture being a factor in training, CRM and hierarchical behavior has been active.. and must (along with every other potential contributor to the accident chain) be.

"Culture" can be derived from national origins, societal norms, membership in vocationally-aligned groups, geographic, you name it. If it's a factor, it must be considered. If it's cited without cause or consideration of other factors, it's out of line.

If you call someone a "racist" because they point out the possibility that culture may have contributed to a deficiency in training or behavior, you are either (1) utterly clueless about the difference between race and culture, or (2) being purposely obtuse for some odd purpose. Either way, not helpful to a reasonable discussion and, frankly, needlessly inflammatory.

Also, don't forget that not everyone is as exquisitely articulate as you are, and it is possible that someone wrote something in good faith, using words which are susceptible of multiple meanings, but which you (for whatever sinister reason) interpret as racist. It is unkind to presume offensive intent.

Bottom-line: we don't know what caused this accident, but every possible cause, or contributor thereto, needs to be on the table, and when an environment which is hostile to full and open discussion of the factors is created (by, for example, unfounded accusations of racism), the investigation, and the safety benefits derived therefrom, is compromised.
 
So I have a stupid question Re: news reports this morning. Let's say you are on a plane that crash landed inside of a major airport and you're outside milling about as the fire trucks are racing toward you.

Why the hell do you call 911? They already KNOW there is a plane crash!!
 
I would never judge someone who just walked out of a crashed plane. Who knows what that feels like and what's going on in your head. The vehicles took two minutes to get there -- not bad but to a survivor this may have felt like forever, since, well, that time is only measured in hindsight. Most people don't know how emergency systems work on an airport -- in a car accident, I'd call 911 right away so it's not surprising many folks would do the same in a plane crash.
 
I am ethnically Korean, born in the US, and consider myself culturally American though I am sure I like my Samsung LED TVs and Korean BBQ as much as anyone from Korea.
I have a Samsung phone and Bulgogi is my FAVORITE. Not Korean though. =)
 
I would never judge someone who just walked out of a crashed plane. Who knows what that feels like and what's going on in your head. The vehicles took two minutes to get there -- not bad but to a survivor this may have felt like forever, since, well, that time is only measured in hindsight. Most people don't know how emergency systems work on an airport -- in a car accident, I'd call 911 right away so it's not surprising many folks would do the same in a plane crash.
I can attest to that an a small way. Once a co-worker had a heart attack. I started CPR and got one colleague to call 911, the other to call the first-responders (first-aid experts in our company). When the first-responders came, I handed off to them, they handed off to the ambulance a minute later when they arrived. It seemed like forever to me but I was astounded to find that, from start to when the ambulance left with the patient, the elapsed time was only 15 minutes! It felt like hours to me.
 
Opps, misunderstood the post, Thought he was referring to bystanders. I am sure the crash victims were calling relatives to let them know they were ok, or just to talk to someone close for comfort.

I am sure there was a mix of nationalities on that flight. Any word on how many were arriving home out of the total number?
 
So I have a stupid question Re: news reports this morning. Let's say you are on a plane that crash landed inside of a major airport and you're outside milling about as the fire trucks are racing toward you.

Why the hell do you call 911? They already KNOW there is a plane crash!!

because while CFR was johnny on the spot, the held back EMS for an extended period of time, delaying care. There were critically injured folks there... and in case anyone looking at the video hasn't noticed, Civilian CFR does not exit the truck and go deal with victims..

My experience is that while the cab may have 4 seats, they are staffed with one or two FF total per truck.. enough to drive and operate the turret.

its the military guys who have 4 to a truck, and exit the vehicle with handlines if needed, and interact with the victims.

They were calling for ambulances to make contact. It wasn't about drama.. it was about need, and excessive delay.
 
I was under the impression that during the period of time I was talking about, a high percentage of airline pilots were white. I don't think that pointing out the excessive deference to the captain that existed in pre-CRM days constitutes racism against whites.
It wasn't a race issue at all but rather one of US cultural norms. But you seem to know that....
Do you equate cultural norms with race?

For example, do Koreans who are born and raised in the U.S. adhere to Korean cultural norms to as great a degree as those who were born and raised in Korea?
....and then you mindlessly go and dig the hole a little deeper.

I would suggest that a 'Korean', born and raised in the US is an American and adheres to the cultural norms of America. Just as any 'white' born and raised in the US, or any 'black' born and raised in the US. Assume that as a default, adjust if necessary.

Please, just try to be a bit more mindful in your speech out of simple courtesy to your fellow Americans and American pilots.
 
It wasn't a race issue at all but rather one of US cultural norms. But you seem to know that....

....and then you mindlessly go and dig the hole a little deeper.

I would suggest that a 'Korean', born and raised in the US is an American and adheres to the cultural norms of America. Just as any 'white' born and raised in the US, or any 'black' born and raised in the US. Assume that as a default, adjust if necessary.

Please, just try to be a bit more mindful in your speech out of simple courtesy to your fellow Americans and American pilots.
Thankfully, the cultural soup that makes up the United States is what makes the United States so great. I grew up in the Northeast and went to College in the deep south, and did my training in the mid Atlantic areas, and was in the Air Force in the Southwest and Midwest, and can tell you that the cultural norms and behavior differ from one area to another. For that matter it can differ from one household to another household. The term American(which to some of my friends who are not from the US but other countries in the western hemisphere is "racist" in that it commonly refers to the US and none of the countries that make up the western hemisphere) refers to many different cultural "norms", behaviors, backgrounds, and upbringing.
 
I wonder if Jeff Foxworthy, a self proclaimed "redneck" and comedian is being racist in his "you might be a redneck" routine. :stirpot:

Cheers
 
There's a big difference, though, between agreeing that cultural norms COULD affect CRM and reaching the conclusion that they were primarily, or even significantly, to blame in THIS particular case.

Not really. We should all know that cultural norms can and does affect CRM because CRM is about people and so are cultural norms. That is just saying that different people approach CRM differently because they come from different cultures.

I don't think it's a huge jump from there to say that something that we should all know was almost certainly a link in the accident chain.

We still are looking for verification from the black box analysis, but that will come with time. From the current existing data, I think we already know enough to say that bad airmanship was the start of the chain and a cultural norm of not correcting a senior was probably a link.
 
I wonder if Jeff Foxworthy, a self proclaimed "redneck" and comedian is being racist in his "you might be a redneck" routine. :stirpot:

Cheers

Another guy is now being racist towards idiots.

If you can get arrested for hunting or fishing without
a license, but not for being in the country illegally ...
you might live in a country run by idiots.

If you have to get your parents’ permission to go on
a field trip or take an aspirin in school, but not to get
an abortion ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If the only school curriculum allowed to explain how
we got here is evolution, but the government stops
a $15 million construction project to keep a rare spider
from evolving to extinction ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If you have to show identification to board an airplane,
cash a check, buy liquor or check out a library book,
but not to vote who runs the government ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If the government wants to ban stable, law-abiding
citizens from owning gun magazines with more than
ten rounds, but gives 20 F-16 fighter jets to the crazy
new leaders in Egypt ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If, in the largest city, you can buy two 16-ounce sodas,
but not a 24-ounce soda because 24-ounces of a
sugary drink might make you fat ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If an 80-year-old woman can be stripped searched
by the TSA but a woman in a hijab is only subject to
having her neck and head searched ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If your government believes that the best way to
eradicate trillions of dollars of debt is to spend trillions
more ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If a seven year old boy can be thrown out of school
for saying his teacher’s "cute," but hosting a sexual
exploration or diversity class in grade school is perfectly acceptable ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If hard work and success are met with higher taxes
and more government intrusion, while not working
is rewarded with EBT cards, WIC checks, Medicaid,
subsidized housing and free cell phones ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If the government's plan for getting people back to
work is to incentivize NOT working with 99 weeks
of unemployment checks and no requirement to
prove they applied but can’t find work ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If being stripped of the ability to defend yourself
makes you more "safe" according to the government ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.
 
Another guy is now being racist towards idiots.

If you can get arrested for hunting or fishing without
a license, but not for being in the country illegally ...
you might live in a country run by idiots.

If you have to get your parents’ permission to go on
a field trip or take an aspirin in school, but not to get
an abortion ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If the only school curriculum allowed to explain how
we got here is evolution, but the government stops
a $15 million construction project to keep a rare spider
from evolving to extinction ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If you have to show identification to board an airplane,
cash a check, buy liquor or check out a library book,
but not to vote who runs the government ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If the government wants to ban stable, law-abiding
citizens from owning gun magazines with more than
ten rounds, but gives 20 F-16 fighter jets to the crazy
new leaders in Egypt ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If, in the largest city, you can buy two 16-ounce sodas,
but not a 24-ounce soda because 24-ounces of a
sugary drink might make you fat ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If an 80-year-old woman can be stripped searched
by the TSA but a woman in a hijab is only subject to
having her neck and head searched ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If your government believes that the best way to
eradicate trillions of dollars of debt is to spend trillions
more ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If a seven year old boy can be thrown out of school
for saying his teacher’s "cute," but hosting a sexual
exploration or diversity class in grade school is perfectly acceptable ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If hard work and success are met with higher taxes
and more government intrusion, while not working
is rewarded with EBT cards, WIC checks, Medicaid,
subsidized housing and free cell phones ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If the government's plan for getting people back to
work is to incentivize NOT working with 99 weeks
of unemployment checks and no requirement to
prove they applied but can’t find work ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.

If being stripped of the ability to defend yourself
makes you more "safe" according to the government ...
You might live in a country run by idiots.
I think you have insulted all of us idiots in the world as even we cannot be that stupid.

Oh and I would add to your unemployment rantthat the unemployment division in FLorida will continue paying you as long as you say you are not working. One of my exemployees who abandoned her job because she did not like the hours has pulled that scam off for the last 18 months.
 
Oh and I would add to your unemployment rantthat the unemployment division in FLorida will continue paying you as long as you say you are not working. One of my exemployees who abandoned her job because she did not like the hours has pulled that scam off for the last 18 months.

Her 99 weeks aren't up yet--that's 23 months.

Do you think the Korean unemployment rate is going up by four (former) pilots? Or will any action by the airline have to wait for the final report?
 
Do you think the Korean unemployment rate is going up by four (former) pilots? Or will any action by the airline have to wait for the final report?
It's Korea....those dudes could easily end up in jail after this.
 
Her 99 weeks aren't up yet--that's 23 months.

Do you think the Korean unemployment rate is going up by four (former) pilots? Or will any action by the airline have to wait for the final report?
I guess my point that she is working while on unemployment(which she should have not even gotten because she abandoned her job and was not fired) albeit as a liscensed massage therapist was lost in my rant. When I found out she was working I called unemployment to tell them and they could care less and would not even investigate it despite me offering them proof including a number of her clients who told me about her job and told me they would testify that she was working.
 
Oh and I would add to your unemployment rantthat the unemployment division in FLorida will continue paying you as long as you say you are not working. One of my exemployees who abandoned her job because she did not like the hours has pulled that scam off for the last 18 months.

They will also look for every reason they can find to pay benefits rather than denying them. I had someone quit and be nice enough to give me a written resignation. I knew she already worked a different job when I got the unemployment claim. Took several calls including supervisors and the threat to go through with a hearing to convince them not to pay the benefit to someone who voluntarily quit.
 
NTSB: Asiana pilot instructed passengers not to evacuate
http://youtu.be/bUMXJFTmJjw


Wow.

Passengers was told by the crew to stay on plane after crash? Passengers were only allowed to leave after fire was seen?


Less people might have been burned and burned less if the egress started as soon as the plane came to a stop.
 
Not really. We should all know that cultural norms can and does affect CRM because CRM is about people and so are cultural norms. That is just saying that different people approach CRM differently because they come from different cultures.
No, it's saying that these individuals f'ed up in large part because of the culture in which they were (presumably) raised. Whatever we know about the culture in general terms, to apply it to individuals you don't know (and don't really know the extent to which their experience is typical of people in that society) seems to require a pretty big assumption.

I don't think it's a huge jump from there to say that something that we should all know was almost certainly a link in the accident chain.

We still are looking for verification from the black box analysis, but that will come with time. From the current existing data, I think we already know enough to say that bad airmanship was the start of the chain
Exactly, we are still looking for the results of the FDR and CVR analysis. It's pretty clear from the statements released today that bad airmanship on at least the IP's part played a big role here.
and a cultural norm of not correcting a senior was probably a link.
Only if you're talking about the other two in the jumpseats, and I haven't seen ANY evidence to this point about what they specifically did or didn't do. For all we know, they might have been asleep.
 
They will also look for every reason they can find to pay benefits rather than denying them. I had someone quit and be nice enough to give me a written resignation. I knew she already worked a different job when I got the unemployment claim. Took several calls including supervisors and the threat to go through with a hearing to convince them not to pay the benefit to someone who voluntarily quit.

I had one "retire" and claim unemployment! He came around and told everyone goodbye and everything, then asked me if we could let him go! I told him no, we really needed him to work! Of course I was glad to get rid of him, but I didn't fire him! Anyway, we had to spend 2 days in hearings to get him denied, he was in his early 70's and figured he could supplement his SS with unemployment for 2 years!:mad2: Luckily he was denied.
I had one I let resign instead of firing him for theft, I got his unemployment claim last week! :dunno:
The system is rigged towards the lazy and corrupt! :no:
 
I had one I let resign instead of firing him for theft, I got his unemployment claim last week! :dunno:

Hey, same here, still waiting for that shoe to drop. You stole from me, now you gonna steal some more via the goverment sponsored theft that is the unemployment insurance system :mad2:.
 
I had one "retire" and claim unemployment! He came around and told everyone goodbye and everything, then asked me if we could let him go! I told him no, we really needed him to work! Of course I was glad to get rid of him, but I didn't fire him! Anyway, we had to spend 2 days in hearings to get him denied, he was in his early 70's and figured he could supplement his SS with unemployment for 2 years!:mad2: Luckily he was denied.
I had one I let resign instead of firing him for theft, I got his unemployment claim last week! :dunno:
The system is rigged towards the lazy and corrupt! :no:
True so true. For the one I discussed before, we had a hearing, over the telephone. She had herself as a witness, I had myself, my office manager, my professional staff, and five or six of her coemployees. Despite all the evidence to the contrary including the fact that we had to mail her belongings to her after she stopped showing up for work, my routine of giving fired personal two weeks of severence pay, and a host of other evidence showing she had abandoned her job, the unemployment person felt we were less believable. Afterwards I found out this is pretty much the normal routine, as Fl has figured out that if they keep them on the unemployment rolls they stay off of welfare, and unemployment is business supported and the amount the employer pays is a rising percentage of your gross payroll dependent on the number of unemployment claims against you found in favor of the employee. Socialism supported by capitalism.
 
Afterwards I found out this is pretty much the normal routine, as Fl has figured out that if they keep them on the unemployment rolls they stay off of welfare, and unemployment is business supported and the amount the employer pays is a rising percentage of your gross payroll dependent on the number of unemployment claims against you

Ooops, you spilled the secret.

The only way I can makes sense of the zeal with which the UI folks push my money out of their door is that they get a cut on everyone they approve.
 
...a cultural norm of not correcting a senior was probably a link.

I'm not so sure about that. If I understood R&W correctly, it sounds like the check airman was the person culturally entitled to deference, even though he was acting as co-pilot. :dunno:
 
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