King Air C-90

[Henning]

Actually I don't think it was but trying to hide stuff will get you every time if it comes to light.

Really? Companies don't insure the engines and they are excluded from the aircraft policy? Wow, that's hard to believe, but I guess if you trust the pilot, you chose to pay them rather than the insurance.

 

[Everskyward]

Really? Companies don't insure the engines and they are excluded from the aircraft policy?

If you mishandle the engine in your 310 and cause damage to it is it insured?

 

[Henning]

If you mishandle the engine in your 310 and cause damage to it is it insured?

Not the same. The corporation is insuring its intrests vis a vis the flight department. Professional Pilots are part of the flight departments liability structure. IOW, the corporation type policy with engine programs that can run into the millions I would think they would insure themselves against the mistakes of their flight department to limit liability to the parent corporation. But maybe they see the situation remote enough or have other assurances in place to self indemnify for the engines. I don't operate in those flight departments so I don't know what the 'common wisdom' is with regards to insuring them.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I had an interesting discussion with the insurance agent about the -21s which are past TBO on my plane being insured if there was an accident. He said they had just submitted a claim for a corporate operator in the same position that had a gear up and the insurer paid a claim for the engines. I didn't get into the details of how the amount was determined, but was surprised. I understand if I do something dumb, that would be different and I probably don't have the same coverage a large corporate flight department might. I know my Sister-in-Law's company carries $25 million liability on their little jet (KA before that). I have much less.

Best,

Dave

 

[wabower]

You are assuming facts not in evidence. Most part 91 flight departments are no different than yours. From first-hand knowledge here, if a hired pilot torches a Citation's JT15D during start, the owner can sue him if he wants, at which time the pilot will file for bankruptcy. Bottom line is that Siciliano's situation and yours are virtually identical. As the owner/pilot you get to pay for whatever you bend or break. Pratt might cut some slack on parts and labor, but don't bet the egg money on it.

Not the same. The corporation is insuring its intrests vis a vis the flight department. Professional Pilots are part of the flight departments liability structure. IOW, the corporation type policy with engine programs that can run into the millions I would think they would insure themselves against the mistakes of their flight department to limit liability to the parent corporation. But maybe they see the situation remote enough or have other assurances in place to self indemnify for the engines. I don't operate in those flight departments so I don't know what the 'common wisdom' is with regards to insuring them.

 

[Everskyward]

I had an interesting discussion with the insurance agent about the -21s which are past TBO on my plane being insured if there was an accident. He said they had just submitted a claim for a corporate operator in the same position that had a gear up and the insurer paid a claim for the engines. I didn't get into the details of how the amount was determined, but was surprised. I understand if I do something dumb, that would be different and I probably don't have the same coverage a large corporate flight department might. I know my Sister-in-Law's company carries $25 million liability on their little jet (KA before that). I have much less.

I would expect insurance to pay off to some degree on repairs or replacement for an engine damaged in an accident or incident (bird strike for example). Not so much so for something caused by mishandling.

 

[Henning]

I had an interesting discussion with the insurance agent about the -21s which are past TBO on my plane being insured if there was an accident. He said they had just submitted a claim for a corporate operator in the same position that had a gear up and the insurer paid a claim for the engines. I didn't get into the details of how the amount was determined, but was surprised. I understand if I do something dumb, that would be different and I probably don't have the same coverage a large corporate flight department might. I know my Sister-in-Law's company carries $25 million liability on their little jet (KA before that). I have much less.

Best,

Dave

Why would you think that? Do you see an exclusion for your own errors? No such thing, when YOU buy hull coverage as an owner operator you are insuring against your mistakes, that's why the insurance company wants you times and training jacket in order to determine the likelyhood and set your premium. If it isn't specifically excluded from the policy it is covered unless they can show intent to defraud.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Well, you've done much more in the insurance claims area than I. I'm just reading the policy, and I admit it's been a couple months and I'm not an expert in that area. I always thought I was insured for accidents--things over which I have no control. I guess if the engine cooked and there was some mechanical problem that caused it, I could see a claim. If I just watched it or didn't start it properly to begin with as Wayne described above, do you think and insurer would pay for that?

The only aircraft claim I've (actually a partnership I was in) ever had was when a tug broke and pushed a Baron into a beam in a hanger. Insurer came right out and paid for that. Saw where the tug had a weld break. Saw where that pushed the plane to one side. Saw the rash on the stabilizer and took a couple pics. We got if fixed for less than their estimate. They paid promptly. I think they called it a not in motion claim.

Best,

Dave

 

[Henning]

Well, you've done much more in the insurance claims area than I. I'm just reading the policy, and I admit it's been a couple months and I'm not an expert in that area. I always thought I was insured for accidents--things over which I have no control. I guess if the engine cooked and there was some mechanical problem that caused it, I could see a claim. If I just watched it or didn't start it properly to begin with as Wayne described above, do you think and insurer would pay for that?

The only aircraft claim I've (actually a partnership I was in) ever had was when a tug broke and pushed a Baron into a beam in a hanger. Insurer came right out and paid for that. Saw where the tug had a weld break. Saw where that pushed the plane to one side. Saw the rash on the stabilizer and took a couple pics. We got if fixed for less than their estimate. They paid promptly. I think they called it a not in motion claim.

Best,

Dave

If you would please Dave, send me a copy of your policy and I will quote you the wording to settle it clearly in your mind. You are insured against your own errors in judgement as long as there is no fraudulent intent. I payed for a roof a guy destroyed with a snow blower! But the news was telling people to clear the snow. No worries, you get a roof, you're covered for that. Now if you go out after a hailstorm with a ball peen hammer, that's another matter.

 

[Everskyward]

Hot Starts, No Problem I'm Covered...Right?

Wrong. A pilot has a "hot start". The assumption is, if FOD damage is covered, hot starts should also be covered. This is not the case. If you have an engine loss resulting from internal heat, your aircraft hull insurance will not answer. This is specifically excluded in your policy with wording similar to "We will not pay for physical damage to an engine that arises out of heat or the improper operation of a turbine engine."

This is universally true in all turbine aircraft hull policies. Your best insurance is a well-trained, conscientious pilot.

http://www.avweb.com/news/insure/182790-1.html

 

[Henning]

http://www.avweb.com/news/insure/182790-1.html

Excellent, thanks, that's the exclusionary wording to look for. If you don't see that, you are covered. What level of coverage did you buy? Sounds like the system is pretty resistant to error. I don't recall big issues, but the turbine guys would hot load behind the wing for cycle credit. Turbines always choked me.

 

[Everskyward]

Excellent, thanks, that's the exclusionary wording to look for. If you don't see that, you are covered.

Did you not see the last line quoted?

This is universally true in all turbine aircraft hull policies. Your best insurance is a well-trained, conscientious pilot.

Things may have changed since the article was written but I had always been told it was not insurable. If you are on a manufacturer's program you may be able to negotiate a little for the repairs, but certainly not for the total cost.

 

[ronnieh]

What indigo said. Pretty universal. Cook an engine and it will be a CEM. Bird strike, FOD, gear up different story.

 

[wabower]

Excellent, thanks, that's the exclusionary wording to look for.

Then why didn't you just tell Dave what to look for? You think he can't read?

If you don't see that, you are covered. What level of coverage did you buy? Sounds like the system is pretty resistant to error. I don't recall big issues, but the turbine guys would hot load behind the wing for cycle credit. Turbines always choked me.

Are you now suggesting that Ag ops are consistent with normal business/pleasure ops?

 

[Henning]

Did you not see the last line quoted?

Things may have changed since the article was written but I had always been told it was not insurable. If you are on a manufacturer's program you may be able to negotiate a little for the repairs, but certainly not for the total cost.

Oh... that I'm not so sure of. I have never seen a risk that couldn't be covered for a premium.

 

[SCCutler]

Oh... that I'm not so sure of. I have never seen a risk that couldn't be covered for a premium.

That there is a fact. Whether it is financially sound to insure is a business decision, but for every risk, there is an underwriter who will, for enough money, write coverage.

 

[Henning]

That there is a fact. Whether it is financially sound to insure is a business decision, but for every risk, there is an underwriter who will, for enough money, write coverage.

Adjusting is actually very simple. You take the statement and determine if you believe it or not for fraud; let's assume it's cleared as not fraudulent. I read the policy for covered risk and exclusions. If the risk is not excluded it's covered. I am sure that disclaimer is 'minimum policy' with riders available. I can't imagine the insurance industry not have a product available. The system is pretty bullet proof, I wouldn't even think it be that bad, but if it is, you better be really careful.

 

[Everskyward]

Adjusting is actually very simple. You take the statement and determine if you believe it or not for fraud; let's assume it's cleared as not fraudulent. I read the policy for covered risk and exclusions. If the risk is not excluded it's covered. I am sure that disclaimer is 'minimum policy' with riders available. I can't imagine the insurance industry not have a product available. The system is pretty bullet proof, I wouldn't even think it be that bad, but if it is, you better be really careful.

Why don't you call some insurers and try to get a policy for a King Air C90 with coverage for engine temperature damage cause by improper operation and get back to us with the cost?

 

[Henning]

Why don't you call some insurers and try to get a policy for a King Air C90 with coverage for engine temperature damage cause by improper operation and get back to us with the cost?

Because nobody is paying me to waste my or anyone elses' time. If an insurance guy wants to volunteer the information on rates, limitations and premiums to cover the risk, that's fine. Until that time, unless I have a serious client that needs a product, I'm not going to waste my underwriters time. I'm not a 'tire kicker' and my specialty is not selling product, though I would entertain the position.

 

[Everskyward]

Because nobody is paying me to waste my or anyone elses' time. If an insurance guy wants to volunteer the information on rates, limitations and premiums to cover the risk, that's fine. Until that time, unless I have a serious client that needs a product, I'm not going to waste my underwriters time. I'm not a 'tire kicker' and my specialty is not selling product, though I would entertain the position.

So you agree that, if it exists, it would be a specialty product and not something that generally comes with hull insurance policies.

 

[ronnieh]

Yes, Indigo I too want to know who that underwriter is.
Back to Dave's discussion that started all of this. Dave on the ITT do ask someone that knows the -21. Tom Clements is certainly qualified. You said you were going to Sim Com or FSI soon, right? They will have people that know exactly what they are talking about. You do want to take care of that hot section. Both sulfadation and overtemp should be considered They are no cheap parts in them, none at all!
On the N2 (prop RPM) I will make no comment on the RPM to be used but, I might suggest a couple of thoughts. Whatever the minimum N2 is for your application in cruise I would use it. The lower RPM will stress the hubs less due to less centrifugal force. Another thing is the gear boxes. From my limited experience, in the small gear boxes one of the most common failures is the planetary gears galling on the shafts. I would THINK that anything that reduces the speed of these gears might help that problem a little. And of course the cabin will be quieter. Just some things to consider.

 

[Henning]

So you agree that, if it exists, it would be a specialty product and not something that generally comes with hull insurance policies.

Sure, it will be an additional rider/covered risk. I have no idea how common the sale of this product would be.

 

[gismo]

Another thing is the gear boxes. From my limited experience, in the small gear boxes one of the most common failures is the planetary gears galling on the shafts. I would THINK that anything that reduces the speed of these gears might help that problem a little. And of course the cabin will be quieter. Just some things to consider.

Your likely correct point about hub forces nonwithstanding, my understanding of the causes of gear wear suggest that torque, not RPM, is the most significant factor so reducing RPM to save the reduction gears may not prove effective and might actually make things worse. Someone probably has some actual useful statistical data to prove or disprove my theory though.

 

[Ted]

I have a question on sulfidation.

As I recall in flying the Cheyenne and Commander (although it's been a few months since I've been in any turbine) at low altitudes you're several hundred degrees below maximum continuous, and really can't get close without overtorquing. I may be recalling incorrectly, but it's not an altitude I need to fly at since we just go to FL200+ and have no problems getting the temps nice and warm. So this is the nature of my question.

Let's take something like a Caravan or Beech 99, or any of the turbine crop dusters. They're relatively unlikely to fly above 10,000 ft on a regular basis. The Caravans out of here fly at 5,000-6,000 ft for most of their lives. Do these aircraft have more sulfidation issues? Or are they actually able to get the temps high enough that it's not an issue? Is there something different about these engines to optimize for low altitude?

 

[wabower]

Yep, if you apply for life insurance and are past the mortality table limits, the premium is the face amount of the policy plus the load.

The good news is that you only have to pay the premium one time and that you immediately receive a paid-up policy. Nor do such policies require a medical exam. Hell of a deal any way you slice it.

That there is a fact. Whether it is financially sound to insure is a business decision, but for every risk, there is an underwriter who will, for enough money, write coverage.

 

[wabower]

They run cool and operators know they will likely encounter shorter engine intervals as a result. But since they are commercial operators (like package haulers) the engine costs are built into their rates. Some of the condemned blades I mentioned to Dave earlier came from a Caravan.

I have a question on sulfidation.

As I recall in flying the Cheyenne and Commander (although it's been a few months since I've been in any turbine) at low altitudes you're several hundred degrees below maximum continuous, and really can't get close without overtorquing. I may be recalling incorrectly, but it's not an altitude I need to fly at since we just go to FL200+ and have no problems getting the temps nice and warm. So this is the nature of my question.

Let's take something like a Caravan or Beech 99, or any of the turbine crop dusters. They're relatively unlikely to fly above 10,000 ft on a regular basis. The Caravans out of here fly at 5,000-6,000 ft for most of their lives. Do these aircraft have more sulfidation issues? Or are they actually able to get the temps high enough that it's not an issue? Is there something different about these engines to optimize for low altitude?

 

[Ted]

They run cool and operators know they will likely encounter shorter engine intervals as a result. But since they are commercial operators (like package haulers) the engine costs are built into their rates. Some of the condemned blades I mentioned to Dave earlier came from a Caravan.

Thanks, that's what I was figuring would be the case.

 

[Lance F]

Is sulfidation a problem unique to turboprops or is it a consideration for turbojets/turbofan operations too? In the schools I've been to I've never heard of it.

Dave, you started a good thread

 

[Henning]

Yep, if you apply for life insurance and are past the mortality table limits, the premium is the face amount of the policy plus the load.

The good news is that you only have to pay the premium one time and that you immediately receive a paid-up policy. Nor do such policies require a medical exam. Hell of a deal any way you slice it.

Got it, the insurance thinks the risk is high enough to post punitive premiums. That does not go to say though that your underwriter will not cover the risk anyway to earn loyalty. If they are within actuarial budget, they can pay claims anyway even if not required and internally audit those as promotional expenses. They explained it was really good value advertising budget.

 

[Henning]

Is sulfidation a problem unique to turboprops or is it a consideration for turbojets/turbofan operations too? In the schools I've been to I've never heard of it.

Dave, you started a good thread

Most definitely, I've learned a lot. If anyone would like to give me some right seat turbine time to contribute to my education I'd appreciate it . Dave, remember Bob Gerace? Ask him what I'm worth in the right seat.

 

[denverpilot]

The thread has been fun. Woke up all those brain cells from long long ago studying turbines at school.

Seeing Dave get to fly his next "dream plane", even better. Not a lot of folks in my demographic getting that far.

Had a friend tell me today on the phone that another friend was moving out of State to chase a job with "good money". The amount he gave was shockingly low. Way below numbers where I'd even consider taking the risk of having a mortgage, even.

I feel pretty blessed to have my "good" gig and no kids so I can afford a little 182 time and a co-ownership.

Gotta go earn it, but I feel for my friend who's got almost 20 years into his career (which isn't an "uneducated" career either!) and is barely squeaking by. I shudder to think what he probably owes on that sheepskin on his wall.

Sorry to digress a bit there. Still in a little shock. Have known the guy since freshman year of high school.

Congrats again on your bird, Dave. It's gorgeous.

 

[SCCutler]

I am going to ask an aviation insurance broker I know to comment. May be interesting.

 

[Henning]

The thread has been fun. Woke up all those brain cells from long long ago studying turbines at school.

Seeing Dave get to fly his next "dream plane", even better. Not a lot of folks in my demographic getting that far.

Had a friend tell me today on the phone that another friend was moving out of State to chase a job with "good money". The amount he gave was shockingly low. Way below numbers where I'd even consider taking the risk of having a mortgage, even.

I feel pretty blessed to have my "good" gig and no kids so I can afford a little 182 time and a co-ownership.

Gotta go earn it, but I feel for my friend who's got almost 20 years into his career (which isn't an "uneducated" career either!) and is barely squeaking by. I shudder to think what he probably owes on that sheepskin on his wall.

Sorry to digress a bit there. Still in a little shock. Have known the guy since freshman year of high school.

Congrats again on your bird, Dave. It's gorgeous.

I see that as well. Saddest is my favorite guy got really hurt in the real estate bust as an ancillary legal/ title insurance/closing functionary. Really sucks to see the good guys lose out.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Is sulfidation a problem unique to turboprops or is it a consideration for turbojets/turbofan operations too? In the schools I've been to I've never heard of it.

Dave, you started a good thread

Gee Lance, all I had to do was buy and KA and start asking a lot of questions 'bout how to run it! Any time, pardner!

Of course, I just asked some simple questions. It's the other folks participating on here that made it so interesting!

Best,

Dave

 

[Henning]

Is sulfidation a problem unique to turboprops or is it a consideration for turbojets/turbofan operations too? In the schools I've been to I've never heard of it.

Dave, you started a good thread

Interesting question, now I'm curious...

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Re: King Air C90

Nate: If it matters to you, I started from scratch; went belly up in the late 80s and built it all since then the hard way. Started my own business; took a lot of risk; maintained quality standards and got it worked out. I'm not exceptionally smart; maybe bright but not a Mensa type; I just found a place I felt I could really add value; became highly knowledgeable and worked very hard at it. Many folks told me I couldn't do it and there were some pretty rough times. Not much financial support or any really from family. Dad was very proud of me.

I guess what I'm saying is it's something that makes this fine country in which we live, great. One can take many paths in life and be rewarded for their efforts.

I love the song from Les Miserables: I Dreamed a Dream. Do you know it? Victor Hugo can be pretty depressing, but it starts off with someone having a dream and life wearing her down until her dream was turned to shame. I play it for my nieces and family and tell them we still have our dream and will never lose it.

I hope you find your dream and get to live it.

============================================

I dreamed a dream in time gone by
When hope was high
And life worth living
I dreamed that love would never die
I dreamed that God would be forgiving
Then I was young and unafraid
And dreams were made and used and wasted
There was no ransom to be paid
No song unsung, no wine untasted
=========================================

Best,

Dave

 

[RotorAndWing]

the power level you select with the power lever (why they don't call them Throttles in a turbine).

If I've got this seriously wrong, I'd appreciate an education.

Guess Boeing and Airbus had better rename the "Auto Throttle" switch to "power switch" then.........

 

[Alejandro Galioto]

As far as insurance is concerned there are 2 important items to remember when it comes to turbines:

Hot Starts are never covered.

Foreign Object Damage claims are only covered when the foreign object came from outside the engine. So if a bolt comes lose from the engine inlet and goes through the turbine - NONE of the claim is covered - all policies treat that as mechanical failure of the entire engine as a unit.

Best,

AG
True-Course Aviation Insurance

 

[Henning]

Guess Boeing and Airbus had better rename the "Auto Throttle" switch to "power switch" then.........

I have always found that hilarious in the light of the lectures and explanations I have received after calling them 'throttles' as well.

Engineers are funny people.

 

[denverpilot]

Makes the story even better Dave. Of course it matters! So many people out there think they simply can't do things. It's an epidemic.

"If you say you can't do something, you're probably right." (The thread about having to calculate time-to-climb without an iPad here recently, comes to mind.)

Turbines are cool. I do NOT want to feed one anytime soon though!

And Victor Hugo... Yep. Have seen two different Broadway tour casts perform Le Miserables. Always a powerful show. Slightly easier for modern audiences to relate to versus say, Shakespere. But it's all good.

I'll watch anything on a stage. Spamalot was side-splittingly funny for Python fans. The Mrs has a pair of bunny slippers with "sharp pointy teeth and fangs" too, which are hilarious.