Ken Burns "Vietnam" Documentary Series Begins Tonight

Gerhardt said:
I remember in the first Gulf invasion we had a number of folks around here in the reserves who were sucking down the benefits, but when called for duty said they didn't agree with it and refused to report. I felt during that time periothen, and I feel today, that they should have been deported to an uninhabited island and left for eternity. You don't sign up to serve when called, but only if you feel like it.
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I was an active duty advisor to an ANG Combat Comm Sq during the late 80s when the unit was put on alert. I forget what was going on during that time period (prob middle east) but recall one of the full time guard guys whining about not wanting to go off to war or whatever was going on then. I told him you've been taking that check every month for how many years now, time to earn it bud. He clammed up but was ****ed. Really ticked me off.
 
Vietnam was going on for pretty much all my childhood. My much older cousin was killed there, which turned that side of the family into being strongly anti-war. They may have been that way before, but I don't remember.

My first job out of college was populated by a large percentage of VN veterans. As I recall, most, if not all, thought the whole thing had been a mistake and were not pleased with the government that had sent them there. I have had a long-term friendship with one of these people, and he was one of the few people I knew, besides myself, who were against the invasion of Iraq at the time it happened.

I have found the first two episodes interesting. I never knew much, if anything, of the backstory.
 
I don't think it's Burns' intent to question or embellish the valor or patriotism of those who served or didn't serve. I think it's his intent to illustrate the multiple political forces and make a cool-headed map of the decisions determining the course of events so that this and future generations can learn from them. So far my impression is he does a hell of a job of that in this work.

The importance of honest dedicated journalism of the time, and now, couldn't be made more clear.
 
Interesting story in the local (KC) newspaper the other day. A high school classmate of one of the "Viet Nam" narrators wrote a column about how that group of school friends ended up, or didn't end up, being drafted or enlisting. The guy in the documentary sharing his story about why he still needs a night light is one of the guys from the writer's graduating class. Ken Burns said about him, “I have this recurring thought that, if some evil genie took away all our interviews but one, the one we would keep would be John Musgrave, and we’d make a different film and call it, The Education of John Musgrave.”
 
Matthew said:
Ken Burns said about him, “I have this recurring thought that, if some evil genie took away all our interviews but one, the one we would keep would be John Musgrave, and we’d make a different film and call it, The Education of John Musgrave.”
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Wouldn't that just be a re-make of Tom Cruise's Born on the 4th of July?
 
Wow, those Johnson recordings are priceless. I've never heard the recordings between Johnson and McNamara and his NSA. Didn't realize he had such misgivings about our role there either. A lot of footage in this series I've never seen before.
 
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Telling that the marine said he could deal and accept mistakes but when McNamara knew we couldn't win in 1965 and then kept it going....he could never forget or forgive that. Sound familiar, like maybe Afghanistan?

McNamara tried to make peace with the military with his book a few years ago but he just dug the hole deeper. Johnson & McNamara, what a pair. No use for either of them.
 
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Really enjoying Burns' new series. It seems pretty objective to me and highlights what an extremely complicated affair it was.
 
retpd2001 said:
Be skeptical of Ken Burns’ documentary: The Vietnam War

by Terry Garlock
For many years I have been presenting to high school classes a 90 minute session titled The Myths and Truths of the Vietnam War. One of my opening comments is, “The truth about Vietnam is bad enough without twisting it all out of shape with myths, half-truths and outright lies from the anti-war left.” The overall message to students is advising them to learn to think for themselves, be informed by reading one newspaper that leans left, one that leans right, and be skeptical of TV news.

Part of my presentation is showing them four iconic photos from Vietnam, aired publicly around the world countless times to portray America’s evil involvement in Vietnam. I tell the students “the rest of the story” excluded by the news media about each photo, then ask, “Wouldn’t you want the whole story before you decide for yourself what to think?”

One of those photos is the summary execution of a Viet Cong soldier in Saigon, capital city of South Vietnam, during the battles of the Tet Offensive in 1968. Our dishonorable enemy negotiated a cease-fire for that holiday then on that holiday attacked in about 100 places all over the country. Here’s what I tell students about the execution in the photo.



Enemy execution by South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police, 1968

“Before you decide what to think, here’s what the news media never told us. This enemy soldier had just been caught after he murdered a Saigon police officer, the officer’s wife, and the officer’s six children. The man pulling the trigger was Nguyen Ngoc Loan, South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police. His actions were supported by South Vietnamese law, and by the Geneva Convention since he was an un-uniformed illegal combatant. Now, you might still be disgusted by the summary execution, but wouldn’t you want all the facts before you decide what to think?”
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Utter tripe. A pity I wound up seeing it. A bigger pity that this gentleman is allowed to influence the minds of young people.
 
I realized of the commentators last night:

Galloway
Caputo
O'Brien

that I've read their books.
 
I had never heard that Nixon was in contact with the South Vietnamese leadership during the '68 campaign, causing them to back out of peace talks in hopes of a better deal after the election.

What a treasonous bastard ****.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
I had never heard that Nixon was in contact with the South Vietnamese leadership during the '68 campaign, causing them to back out of peace talks in hopes of a better deal after the election.

What a treasonous bastard ****.
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Tricky Dicky.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
I had never heard that Nixon was in contact with the South Vietnamese leadership during the '68 campaign, causing them to back out of peace talks in hopes of a better deal after the election.

What a treasonous bastard ****.
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Oh he did more, a lot more. He wasn't resigning for his health.
 
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I took the night off. I'll double up tomorrow night to catch up.

My wife made the comment last night, the same thing I was thinking: "And this is what we watched on the TV news every night."
 
Matthew said:
I took the night off. I'll double up tomorrow night to catch up.

My wife made the comment last night, the same thing I was thinking: "And this is what we watched on the TV news every night."
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We watched on the news with a very different flavor of BS. I couldn't finish the first episode. Objective the new stuff isn't.
 
Matthew said:
I've been waiting for the time period when my dad was there (66-67). I was 6-7 at that time. Probably will touch on that with tonight's episode. I was old enough to know he was "in the war" but not old enough to understand what was going on. As it went on, and I got older, I was more aware of both the war and the political and social changes going on around me. It was an interesting time to grow up.
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I am in the same cohort, Dad served 65-66 when we were 4-5. Last year my brother& I went to VN and visted the places he fought-- Da Nang, camp Carrol, The Rockpile. He couldn't come but we were able to talk about it when we returned. It was insispensable in understanding and relating to him.
 
hankrausch said:
I am in the same cohort, Dad served 65-66 when we were 4-5. Last year my brother& I went to VN and visted the places he fought-- Da Nang, camp Carrol, The Rockpile. He couldn't come but we were able to talk about it when we returned. It was insispensable in understanding and relating to him.
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My dad headed over and left a pregnant wife and two young kids at home. Tough time to go. He was in or near Pleiku. He doesn't mind talking about those days and he tried to make as many reunions as possible until he found it too tough to travel. He still does remember the guys that are "forever young", the guys that will always be 18 or 19 because that's as old as they ever got. He has stories about many of them. A couple guys were captured at 18 or so and since '66 was early in the war, by the time they were released they had missed so much of their lives and so much of the rest of the world had changed.
 
Clark1961 said:
We watched on the news with a very different flavor of BS. I couldn't finish the first episode. Objective the new stuff isn't.
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For those of us that don't remember the first time around, what is missing?
 
PPC1052 said:
For those of us that don't remember the first time around, what is missing?
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Of course perspective changes with time. The evening news at the time would report casualty numbers, where some fighting was located, and maybe show video of fighting. The war protests would also have coverage. There was some objectivity but it was within a system that was biased to support "official" government positions. At the time it was difficult for the mainstream to see that bias.

This new round of "reporting" seems to take the nearly polar opposite on bias. The terrorists became freedom fighters so-to-speak. The truth lies somewhere in the middle with many poor choices made by all participants. The sad part is that templates for peaceful, organic change existed. Of course those templates are still ignored today by many groups.
 
Clark1961 said:
There was some objectivity but it was within a system that was biased to support "official" government positions. At the time it was difficult for the mainstream to see that bias.
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Walter Cronkite, "the most trusted man in America", added his opinions and they were sometimes opposite of the government's.
 
Matthew said:
Walter Cronkite, "the most trusted man in America", added his opinions and they were sometimes opposite of the government's.
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I look at it as the system was reporting within the framework created by the government. Westmoreland wanted to fight a war of attrition so info supporting that position was supplied to the press. Yes some of the atrocities from both sides were reported. My Lai still sticks in my mind even though I was barely old enough to understand what happened. The trial received a lot of press so that probably had something to do with it. Kent State was similar in some regards. Of course the thing that really jaded me with respect to the government's ability to generate propaganda was Nixon's peace with honor announced just before an election. The war wasn't important, re-election was.
 
Clark1961 said:
I look at it as the system was reporting within the framework created by the government. Westmoreland wanted to fight a war of attrition so info supporting that position was supplied to the press. Yes some of the atrocities from both sides were reported. My Lai still sticks in my mind even though I was barely old enough to understand what happened. The trial received a lot of press so that probably had something to do with it. Kent State was similar in some regards. Of course the thing that really jaded me with respect to the government's ability to generate propaganda was Nixon's peace with honor announced just before an election. The war wasn't important, re-election was.
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lessons were learned. When the Gulf War broke out, the 'news' was tightly controlled by the Army
 
pmanton said:
I was there----. The final episode covering the Wall left me in tears.
Paul
CW-2 USA Ret
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That was a tough part, but a necessary part.

It really is like what was described - you don't really see until you are there, and then it really hits, hard. If you haven't been there, go.
 
I went to see the Wall with my two kids years ago. Found a classmate's name, VP of our class. His father owned the Pontiac dealership in town and I imagine he could have got out of the service w/ his father's money and pull. Always admired him for volunteering instead of going off to college. I think there were a couple of other guys names there too.

I always thought LBJ was scum but there were a few things I didn't realize or knew about Nixon concerning VN. Definitely a bigger scum.
 
The series brought back many memories for me. A very few good most not good. I was disappointed that the real cause of the war was never discussed. Few people know that the South China Sea overlays a huge puddle of oil. The Japanese invaded Vietnam in WarII hoping to take the oil for Japan. The French, after the war allowed Shell Oil to drill. When I was in Vietnam in 1970, I stood on the shore of the South China Sea and watched them drill. The oil platforms were south of Saigon and the area was secured by ARVNs. Very few US troops got to that area. I am sure the the oil interests kept the pressure on Washington to keep the war going so they would not have their interests nationalized.
 
Yes Japan invaded countries to get the raw materials that Japan lacked. Did it to Korea and just about cut down every tree in the country. A large part of China too.
 
Walt said:
The series brought back many memories for me. A very few good most not good. I was disappointed that the real cause of the war was never discussed. Few people know that the South China Sea overlays a huge puddle of oil. The Japanese invaded Vietnam in WarII hoping to take the oil for Japan. The French, after the war allowed Shell Oil to drill. When I was in Vietnam in 1970, I stood on the shore of the South China Sea and watched them drill. The oil platforms were south of Saigon and the area was secured by ARVNs. Very few US troops got to that area. I am sure the the oil interests kept the pressure on Washington to keep the war going so they would not have their interests nationalized.
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Good thing we learned our lesson so that doesn't happen again
 
luvflyin said:
Good thing we learned our lesson so that doesn't happen again
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I know. The first Gulf War was done correctly, but man, like 16 years in Afghanistan and counting...
 
Oil was part of it but the other thing Vietnam had a lot of, which was in even more demand during WWII, was rubber.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Oil was part of it but the other thing Vietnam had a lot of, which was in even more demand during WWII, was rubber.
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Was VN like Korea where rubbers were issued free? Just wondering.... :popcorn:
 
Been there done that,they didn't give you a T shirt,thought the film was well done. Got a healthy respect for Bourbon .
 
I saw a story in the local paper a day or two ago on John Musgrave, the Marine with the story about the night-light. He said his phone has been blowing up from all the texts and messages he's been getting.

That guy had quite a story.
 
Was VN like Korea where rubbers were issued free? Just wondering.... :popcorn:

Yeah I put a rubber over my rifle muzzle and kept my watch in another.

LBJ was wearing the lapel pin for the Silver Star. Google LBJ Silver Star for an eye opener.
 
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