KCRQ Ground Loop Today

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

Line Up and Wait
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VWGhiaBob
Gosh...old bi-planes are hard to fly! It was a calm day, beautiful, no wind at KCRQ near San Diego. I notice a bi-plane pass by in a bit of a high flare. The tower tells me to line up and wait. I look up and the gorgeous open cockpit plane is bouncing a bit. Then, without warning, the tail swings around, the wing hits the ground, and the right wheel bends over. The poor guy ends up facing the wrong way on the runway.

My weekend is ruined...Airport closed and had to rent a car to come home. Worse, I feel really bad for the guy. I heard he spent years restoring it and flying is is life passion.

Makes me wonder if I will ever get that tailwheel endorsement!
 
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VWGhiaBob said:
Gosh...old bi-planes are hard to fly! It was a calm day, beautiful, no wind at KCRQ near San Diego. I notice a bi-plane pass by in a bit of a high flare. The tower tells me to line up and wait. I look up and the gorgeous open cockpit plane is bouncing a bit. Then, without warning, the tail swings around, the wing hits the ground, and the right wheel bends over. The poor guy ends up facing the wrong way on the runway.

My weekend is ruined...Airport closed and had to rent a car to come home. Worse, I feel really bad for the guy. I heard he spent years restoring it and flying is is life passion.

Makes me wonder if I will ever get that tailwheel endorsement!
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Why wouldn't you?
 
Stuff happens,the plane can be fixed. No reason you can't get the endorsement.
 
Sorry to hear you had to drive back. There is no flight planning to avoid that scenario. I guess we all risk not being able to fly back home for one reason or another.

I've flown into CRQ for a quick lunch. Nice place. Makes me wonder what criteria they use to close the airport vs. tow/drag the plane off the active and resume operations. Probably the same criteria that differentiates between "accident" and "incident" in FAA lingo.
 
They wouldn't let you take off from the taxiway? Usually it doesn't take them too long to clear a runway.
 
Any TW plane can be a challenge. The older planes are especially unforgiving, one moment of lapse in concentration during the landing 'event' and you'll pay the price. I find that the no-wind days are more challenging to land mainly because there's rarely "no wind". No wind=light & variable.

But, getting your TW endorsement can be the single most important training you'll have as a pilot...
 
Hank S said:
Yep. But they sometimes break free on the rollout.
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That is exceptionally rare. Failures of steerable tailwheels (the steering links or castering mechanism) are much more common, though I wouldn't say they are actually common. Probably 95% of ground loops are caused by pilot factors.

OP, saying that witnessing a ground loop discourages you from getting a tailwheel endorsement is like saying that witnessing a PIO and nose wheel failure/prop strike on a trike would discourage you from continuing to fly trikes...and thus continue to fly period.
 
Hank S said:
Yep. But they sometimes break free on the rollout.
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I don't see how unless the pin pull is activated pushing the stick forward and you go all the way with it.:dunno: The detented ones I've had pop out on me, bet never a locking one.
 
Henning said:
I don't see how unless the pin pull is activated pushing the stick forward and you go all the way with it.:dunno: The detented ones I've had pop out on me, bet never a locking one.
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Yep, when I said 'exceptionally rare', I meant I've never actually heard of it happening.

HankS- what is your experience with locking tailwheel failures? What type of aircraft?
 
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Don't be afraid of tailwheels... I started flying aerobatics in a citabria at 12 hours in... By 15 hours into my PPL I was flying coordinated aileron rolls, loops, split s, and immelmans. Falling leaves and spins also turned into just another maneuver.

I really think that every pilot should start in a tailwheel up until solo. Or at least fly 5-10 hours in a tailwheel during the PPL training. Very beneficial to stick/rudder/coordination skills.

Unfortunate about that plane... At least he was okay.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
S Joslin said:
Any TW plane can be a challenge. The older planes are especially unforgiving, one moment of lapse in concentration during the landing 'event' and you'll pay the price. I find that the no-wind days are more challenging to land mainly because there's rarely "no wind". No wind=light & variable.

But, getting your TW endorsement can be the single most important training you'll have as a pilot...
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Tailwheel isn't that bad, and older stuff often has better handling, for example a Stinson, just like driving a caddy, smooth and easy.

It all comes down to training and your background going into tailwheel, take a guy with 1000hrs who learned to fly from the ground up in a tailwheel, vs a retired self proclaimed hot shot airline guy with 15000hrs who just now got his tailwheel endorsement and a pitts. 1000hrs guy probably has a way less likely chance of pranging the plane IMHO.

There is a reason I always recommend students get their PPL in a tailwheel though.
 
How long could it possibly take to clear a biplane from the runway? The "weekend was shot"?
 
Captain said:
How long could it possibly take to clear a biplane from the runway? The "weekend was shot"?
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That's what I was thinking. An airport like CRQ should be able to clear the runway in about an hour or less after an "event" like that.
 
RoscoeT said:
HankS- what is your experience with locking tailwheel failures? What type of aircraft?
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I watched a friend in a Champ suddenly depart the runway well after touchdown. It looked like an exciting ride between the lights and through the weeds. No damage to anything but his pride,and he was still hungry enough to eat and calm enough to fly home afterwards.

Being on final behind him, I didn't have a whole lot of attention to watch for details of when it started. He said the tailwheel came unlocked. Was it a "locking" tailwheel or a "detent" tailwheel? All I know is what he said, several years ago.

Life kept getting in the way of a tailwheel rating, and where I am now,there aren't any available.
 
Hank S said:
I watched a friend in a Champ suddenly depart the runway well after touchdown. It looked like an exciting ride between the lights and through the weeds. No damage to anything but his pride,and he was still hungry enough to eat and calm enough to fly home afterwards.



Being on final behind him, I didn't have a whole lot of attention to watch for details of when it started. He said the tailwheel came unlocked. Was it a "locking" tailwheel or a "detent" tailwheel? All I know is what he said, several years ago.



Life kept getting in the way of a tailwheel rating, and where I am now,there aren't any available.
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Sounds like a BS excuse. I've never seen a locking tailwheel in a Champ. Steerable, but not locking.

Locking tailwheels tend to be found on bigger taildraggers like DC-3s, Beech 18s and some single engine warbirds where hooking up steering cables to the tailwheel would not be practical. The tailwheel is free castering and you lock it in place once you are on the runway about to take off.
 
One of my mains went flat during rollout on landing at KOKV a couple of years ago. Debris on the runway did me in. I managed to keep the plane from groundlooping (Maule MX7-180C), but couldn't taxi clear. They shut the airport down for 5 hours because of this. The airport had a dolly and could easily have moved my plane sooner, but they wouldn't budge it until the FAA gave them a green light. The feds busted their chops over moving a biplane that had ground looped before the feds could inspect the scene several months earlier and the whole airport was jumpy. My incident was not an accident and the mechanic found the piece of bent sheet metal that punctured the tire, but the airport authority still wouldn't move my plane an inch until the feds approved it. It was the 4th of July and the FAA emergency contact was not picking up his phone. Once the FAA was contacted and understood the situation, they approved moving me. Getting the plane over to maintenance only took about 10 minutes once we were cleared. The FAA did come out and inspected the cut tire the next day. So, the delay in clearing the plane is more an issue of getting FAA approval to disturb an accident scene than any physical challenges with moving the plane.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Sounds like a BS excuse. I've never seen a locking tailwheel in a Champ. Steerable, but not locking.

Locking tailwheels tend to be found on bigger taildraggers like DC-3s, Beech 18s and some single engine warbirds where hooking up steering cables to the tailwheel would not be practical. The tailwheel is free castering and you lock it in place once you are on the runway about to take off.
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Haven't examined a Champ tailwheel (although there is a grungy one in the basement), but there are plenty or aircraft with tailwheels which are centered by a spring loaded key that locks the tailwheel in alignment with the rudder until a certain breakout force is achieved.
 
kyleb said:
Haven't examined a Champ tailwheel (although there is a grungy one in the basement), but there are plenty or aircraft with tailwheels which are centered by a spring loaded key that locks the tailwheel in alignment with the rudder until a certain breakout force is achieved.
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Yes, but those aren't true 'locking tailwheels'. They are the steerable tailwheels that I was referring to. They aren't locked into place- when you move the rudder, the tailwheel moves too.

A 'lockable' tailwheel does not move when you move the rudder.
 
Pure calm wind is the worse landings in the Pawnee, give me a little 3knt wind, slight cross, and they roll on.

Those old biplanes are short fuselage and forgiving on grass. On pavement you need to be on your toes.

When I got my first J-3 checkout, before endorsements were required, The instructor told me to keep it on grass, get some experience, and then we'll go get some dual on pavement.
 
BillTIZ said:
Pure calm wind is the worse landings in the Pawnee, give me a little 3knt wind, slight cross, and they roll on.

Those old biplanes are short fuselage and forgiving on grass. On pavement you need to be on your toes.

When I got my first J-3 checkout, before endorsements were required, The instructor told me to keep it on grass, get some experience, and then we'll go get some dual on pavement.
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Yes. Grass is MUCH more forgiving!
 
Fearless Tower said:
Yes, but those aren't true 'locking tailwheels'. They are the steerable tailwheels that I was referring to. They aren't locked into place- when you move the rudder, the tailwheel moves too.

A 'lockable' tailwheel does not move when you move the rudder.
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Agree. I just thought the people in the discussion were talking past each other. So I jumped in and didn't help the situation. It's what I do. ;-)
 
I've lost steering on steerable tailwheel said several times due to lost chains, broken lock pins/detent pins and it is no reason for losing control unless you lost brakes as well.

Navy Stearmans had true locking non-steerable t/w because all carrier a/c had locking t/w. I've never had a true locking t/w failure. Personally, I prefer steerable, but neither is a big deal.

I learned in a Cub Have 1500+ hours and only about 140 is in trikes so I'm pretty comfortable in t/w.


Jim R
Collierville, TN

N7155H--1946 Piper J-3 Cub
N3368K--1946 Globe GC-1B Swift
N4WJ--1994 Van's RV-4
 
BillTIZ said:
Pure calm wind is the worse landings in the Pawnee, give me a little 3knt wind, slight cross, and they roll on.
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When doing wheel landings, I found I got in the habit of rolling one wheel on first - usually the right - even with no crosswind. Especially in my spring-geared Citabrias, I found it made bouncing less likely.

Possibly a bad habit, and unnecessary, but it worked for me.

N3368K said:
I've lost steering on steerable tailwheel said several times due to lost chains, broken lock pins/detent pins and it is no reason for losing control unless you lost brakes as well.
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As an aside, the Scott 3200 tailwheel is a pretty robust unit. There was, however, one u-shaped spring that tended to break with some regularity. When it did, it would not engage on one side or the other. Part #22 below:

3400-diagram.jpg


Not to mention it was a dirty, greasy job to replace it!
 
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Flyhound said:
So, the delay in clearing the plane is more an issue of getting FAA approval to disturb an accident scene than any physical challenges with moving the plane.
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If it is an incident and not an accident, why are they even contacting the FAA for an approval?

It is often better to ask for forgiveness than permission...
 
After my gear up we had the runway clear and everything back to normal in about 45 minutes.
 
It's lack of experience and or poor training. My Stearman and my cessna 195 did not have locking tail wheels that one controlled from the cabin. Rather indents. On a calm day , on asphalt or grass they were not difficult at all . On a windy day it's an entirely different situation. If he intends to continue he may need further training and experience. Once in the air they are easy. 10 or twelve hour check out without lots of landings " ain't gonna cut it". Ground looping a Stearman or a cessna 195 can get very expensive unless your very lucky.
 
A champ will have either a Maule or Scott "steerable-castering" tailwheel. It is steered by a connection to the rudder, and if the pilot wants to turn tightly, he applies full rudder and brake on that side and the wheel pivots a little farther against its steering springs and a mechanism in the steering releases and lets the wheel pivot freely. The airplane can turn with one main wheel locked.

That steering release is what guys are referring to as the "locking" feature on these little airplanes. If the mechanism isn't maintained, or if the steering springs are soft or their chains are slack, the wheel can pivot far enough in the rollout to let the steering function release and the pilot is in trouble. Even a bad shimmy can unlock it.

Not enough tailwheel mechanics out there anymore, I think.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
That's what I was thinking. An airport like CRQ should be able to clear the runway in about an hour or less after an "event" like that.
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You would think so, but even a 172 with a flat tire seems to take at least 45min. I was just about to taxi when this happened. Runway was closed for about 3 hours.

One of the FBOs is contracted by the airport to do all the runway removals. I think they must get paid by the hour because it always takes forever. Even the controllers make jokes about how ridiculous it is.

This particular biplane has had more than one of these little issues. It ended up standing on its nose just about 2 months ago. It was just recently repaired. Scary thing is it's a commercial tour operation.
 
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StinkBug said:
You would think so, but even a 172 with a flat tire seems to take at least 45min. I was just about to taxi when this happened. Runway was closed for about 3 hours.
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:dunno:

A couple $20 furniture dollies, some cargo straps and floor jack...
 
Poor Travel Air.

I have a friend that used to fly the TA's for San Diego Barnstormers and he said those original 1920s style thin wheels could be really unforgiving on pavement. They look nice, but were never meant for modern runways.
 
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StinkBug said:
And because no thread is complete without pics...



12227136_10208069778212403_3427310634201296571_n.jpg
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When did you take those, or did you get those from someone else?

I just looked it up and that same Travel Air had a nose over accident at CRQ on September 16, 2015

Are those photos from the September accident or more recently?
 
Never mind, I just looked it up in the FAA prelim site. Sure enough this is that airplane's second accident in the past 60 days.

Company is Funflights.com

Wonder if the fact that it was s revenue flight made them take longer to clear/reopen the airport?
 
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I took those pics yesterday, and yes this is its second accident in a couple months.
 
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