Katrina

[The Old Man]

Yeah, lotta good having the rwy above water. So you land the plane. Then what? The area for parking airplanes off the rwys looks pretty soggy to me. No place to put the airplanes.

Judy

I'm not sure even landing there is doable. Lakeview is outside the levees on the shoreline. All the wave action on Ponchartrain washed over the airport. The potential for washouts under the concrete is very real.

 

[Greebo]

As a matter of perspective, the Tsunami in Indonesia happened on Dec. 26 and it took weeks before relief efforts could really get underway. While we're on "home turf" this time, the task is massive and the logistics ... unbelievably difficult.

Lets do try to keep the politics to a minimum while the crisis is still underway. There is a time and place for analysis and criticism and while people are stranded and starving isn't it. I too am dismayed at what I see as a lack of organization - but for now its time to lend whatever help we can and make do with what we've got. Playing politics right now is not going to help, its only going to hurt.

Its easy to criticise from afar - lets not succomb to the temptation to yield to our bases and least civilized reactions. There are plenty of other places on the net where one can go to play politics and be uncivil.

 

[gkainz]

Thanks, Chuck. Also keep in mind that our news media seems to have forgotten how to find, report and broadcast good news. It just doesn't happen very often. So, we get to see the worst of the worst, and accept it as the norm... subtle brainwashing...

 

[Jeff Oslick]

The troubles the Gulf coast is seeing have their origins in political and economic decisions made many years before this storm hit. To try to blame on any one current group or organization or administration, local, state or federal is pretty short-sighted.

It has now been 4 years and who knows how many billions of dollars thrown at the so-called "Department of Homeland Security" since 9-11-01. The fact that the government is still so phenomenally incompetent at providing relief in a situation that was entirely foreseeable (and yes, it was entirely foreseeable, I have studied natural disasters extensively as a geologist) speaks volumes about the wasted resources and incompetence of the leaders in our government (both civilian and military) by their failure to adequately plan for such inevitable events. The fundamental problem is an unwillingness among both politicians and bureaucrats (and probably humans in general) to plan for anything that they don't think is likely to affect them in more than a few years.

This incompetence will be proven conclusively when they attempt to rebuild New Orleans exactly the same as it was before. They may get away with it for a few years, but I don't think they can/will expend the resources needed to adequately protect this city from rising sea levels, subsidence of the the Gulf Coast, loss of wetlands, and the continued threat from hurricanes. This will happen again, it is only a matter of time.

Jeff

 

[wsuffa]

The troubles the Gulf coast is seeing have their origins in political and economic decisions made many years before this storm hit. To try to blame on any one current group or organization or administration, local, state or federal is pretty short-sighted.

All the way back to before the civil war. Really.

The problem didn't happen in a day, and it isn't going to be solved in a day.

I'd sure like to see some organization to the process, in which case there is an army of displaced folks (and many more folks around the country) that could help clean up the region. Put some of the relief money into paying a wage to these displaced folks in return for their help cleaning up the region. Helps on two fronts: gives them jobs (gets them off the street), and helps restore the region more quickly.

Can't do it without organization or a plan, though. And that's where the military can & should help. Really. There are few organizations better than the military for organizing, directing, and managing large groups of people (that have various levels of education). Discipline and command/control is what the military does best.

 

[Bill]

There are few organizations better than the military for organizing, directing, and managing large groups of people (that have various levels of education). Discipline and command/control is what the military does best.

Great plan, but there is no way the congress critters are going to let the military rebuild when they can spread those dollars to their home constituent companies and supporters.

 

[SCCutler]

All the way back to before the civil war. Really.

The problem didn't happen in a day, and it isn't going to be solved in a day.

I'd sure like to see some organization to the process, in which case there is an army of displaced folks (and many more folks around the country) that could help clean up the region. Put some of the relief money into paying a wage to these displaced folks in return for their help cleaning up the region. Helps on two fronts: gives them jobs (gets them off the street), and helps restore the region more quickly.

Can't do it without organization or a plan, though. And that's where the military can & should help. Really. There are few organizations better than the military for organizing, directing, and managing large groups of people (that have various levels of education). Discipline and command/control is what the military does best.

WPA, Bill, a great idea.

But the concept of requiring productive effort in exchange for governmental redistribution of assets from the productive sector is anathema to politicos now.

 

[wsuffa]

Great plan, but there is no way the congress critters are going to let the military rebuild when they can spread those dollars to their home constituent companies and supporters.

Maybe, but using a command-control structure during the cleanup phase is not a bad thing. Besides, there may be more money in mil contracts for home constituents (think Halliburton).

 

[wsuffa]

WPA, Bill, a great idea.

But the concept of requiring productive effort in exchange for governmental redistribution of assets from the productive sector is anathema to politicos now.

Yeah, sorta, but that money is going to be spent regardless. Let's use folks that were formerly productive, but now idled, and let's keep the still productive folks working to grow the economy.

I'm suggesting short-term (clean-up), as I think once reconstruction begins there will be plenty of private sector work.

But the real focus ought to be on command-control. Even if you use private sector to do the work, you still have to have command-control. The military is tops at that.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

A lot of folks have been discussing what the media is not showing in NO. Here's a post form a guy with a son in the NG. Sounds like there's much more to relief than dealing with the nartual disaster.

Dave
======================================

Friends:

Christie and I spoke with our son just a couple of hours ago. He is in the LA National Guard and is in New Orleans. We were elated to hear his voice, but distressed by the news he related. He has been in the CBD since getting to NO. Wednesday night his squad was holding in the NO Convention Center when they were attacked by a large group carrying AK-47s. They had to fire fight their way out and made it to the Superdome. He said they have been receiving fire the entire time he has been in the CBD. This morning as they made their way from the Superdome to Bourbon/Canal area, he spent 6 clips of ammo in protecting himself. Once reaching the area, they realized that the Riverwalk was ablaze. He says that there are bodies everywhere and most have died from gunfire, not the storm. Those of us who know this element of NO have ignored it in the past and stayed away from the areas they frequent, but now they are trying to kill our young men and women who are making an effort to save those need help.

Please keep these young people in your thoughts and prayers! And let's please question our politicians why they think that is necessary to keep us in the dark to the real picture of what is going on in NO. Their denials make me want to puke! Our son said that although he was trained to do what he is now doing, he would have never believed that he would be doing it in LA. It is very perplexing for him and all those in his squad. Thanks for listening.

 

[wsuffa]

Dave,

It just gets worse and worse.

I am so disgusted with folks in San Antonio right now, I can hardly see straight. I just made a short trip down to the hangar to pick up the keys to the plane after some maintenance. I was listening to a local talk radio station on the way.

(Background: San Antonio is receiving on the order of 25,000 refugees from N.O. They will be housed at the old Kelly AFB for the forseeable future. THere are a number of businesses that have offered jobs to folks coming here: there is a crawler on a couple of the local TV stations listing the employers/jobs.)

In 20 minutes, I heard at least 3 callers to the local talk show today giving the NIMBY attitude to the refugees.

"Well, what happens later? Those people might stay here, and our market can't support any jobs for them"

"We shouldn't let them attend our schools, we should create a school from an abandoned building near them. They might carry diseases and we don't have the teachers".

And this from the Superintendant of the North East ISD (NEISD is a more affluent part of town):
"We're looking at creating a charter school just for them that they can attend instead of being bussed to our schools. We wouldn't want them too far from their parents" [well, excuse the he!! out of me! Don't we bus students that LIVE HERE to those same schools????]

I am so embarrassed to be associated with this city.

 

[rsleeds]

Dave,

It just gets worse and worse.

I am so disgusted with folks in San Antonio right now, I can hardly see straight. I just made a short trip down to the hangar to pick up the keys to the plane after some maintenance. I was listening to a local talk radio station on the way.

(Background: San Antonio is receiving on the order of 25,000 refugees from N.O. They will be housed at the old Kelly AFB for the forseeable future. THere are a number of businesses that have offered jobs to folks coming here: there is a crawler on a couple of the local TV stations listing the employers/jobs.)

In 20 minutes, I heard at least 3 callers to the local talk show today giving the NIMBY attitude to the refugees.

"Well, what happens later? Those people might stay here, and our market can't support any jobs for them"

"We shouldn't let them attend our schools, we should create a school from an abandoned building near them. They might carry diseases and we don't have the teachers".

And this from the Superintendant of the North East ISD (NEISD is a more affluent part of town):
"We're looking at creating a charter school just for them that they can attend instead of being bussed to our schools. We wouldn't want them too far from their parents" [well, excuse the he!! out of me! Don't we bus students that LIVE HERE to those same schools????]

I am so embarrassed to be associated with this city.

Sorry to hear all of that Bill. Here in Houston, I've heard nothing but the opposite. Luckily, it's the minority voice - unfortunately, we have to hear it.

 

[astanley]

I sit here in New England, watching the coverage on TV, the internet, the 'blogs, the paper, everywhere.

I've watched (not experienced) hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of horrific footage from various natural disasters and wars from around the world (Jessie took a "Culture and It's Response to Disaster" class in college, all documentaries) and every single one chilled me to the bone. But I was always comforted, on a subconcious level, that so frequently these things happened in third world countries, lacking resources, finance, or ability, or even all three.

This disaster, this event, is beyond the comprhension and scope of what we have ever thought or seen on our soil. We all sat, shocked, afraid, angered and wondering on 9/11. Blue skies slit by silver streaks of pure evil as they carried out their terror. But we've all seen storms, we've all see what happens when the Earth turns against herself. To see it happen here, in a way that we all knew, we all talked about, shocked us all. It shocked and surprised our government.

We had a cash collection at work, which all of us chipped in to, regardless of ability to pay or contribute. Even a print operator, making $9 an hour, kicked $200 into the bucket.

I'm not sure quite why I'm posting this, but this just feels so massive. Massive because I never, ever projected the US onto a tragedy like this. I have always prepared (we have crisis kits in our house, in kayak bags ready to go), but never really projected the anarchy that reigns in NO. This just screws with the most basic of feelings.

-Andrew

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Bill:

You've probably read, Dallas is taking in 25,000; there is no doubt it will impact our city. In addition, there are many thousands more in hotels, with relatives, etc. The 25,000 is just the number going to shelters.

I hear you with the NIMBYs. I hope someone slaps em down. No tolerance for this kind of ignorance. It could be us or a family member trying to go elsewhere but for the grace of God.

The press coverage is not balanced. They are trying but don't comprehend what's really going on. Not hearing a thing from a reporter out where shots are being fired. There is some coverage of looting, but it's all qualified with--they have to get food somewhere. I agree on the food part, but not the electronics stores! Certainly not with muggings, rapes and murders. NY Times has reported that many chose to say when they could have left, not the indigent, but others. I'm sure they had no idea the Levis would burst. But, it's caused a real miss and risk of life for rescuers to have to go in an pull them out. No plan to get the indigent and non-ambulatory out--how could this be?

I don't think anyone perceived what a massive rescue effort would be required: 90,000 square miles of disaster area is an awful lot of ground to cover. 80% of NO flooded adds additional challenges. The talking heads just chirp about the sky falling; no technical understanding of what it takes to active Guard units, equip them--especially with special gear, coordinate activities over this large an area; land aircraft with facilities inoperative; etc. I understand them complaining, but there should be some attempt to explain why the response is taking time. (I'd like to know also!)

I'm doing a little by helping a couple families that have come up here in a small way but feel very inadequate.

Best,

Dave

 

[fgcason]

I'm not sure even landing there is doable. Lakeview is outside the levees on the shoreline. All the wave action on Ponchartrain washed over the airport. The potential for washouts under the concrete is very real.

Maybe it's just me but I think what N.O. really needs is seaplanes. Dozens of them. Forget the questionable concrete surface. Nearly the whole city turns into a giant runway at that point. You could then get supplies in and survivors out.

 

[mikea]

NEW ORLEANS, Sept 3 (Reuters) - People left homeless by Hurricane Katrina told horrific stories of rape, murder and trigger happy guards in two New Orleans centers that were set up as shelters but became places of violence and terror.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N03464940.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/

Now they just need to hold the body count off until the media moves on to the story of the next dead blonde white woman.

It's going to be many thousands dead.

 

[wsuffa]

Now they just need to hold the body count off until the media moves on to the story of next dead blonde white woman.

It's going to be many thousands dead.

"many" as in "tens of"

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Some perspective on what's going on from a friend in Baton Rouge.

Dave
=============================
First, a little history:
My dad went to N.O. the morning after Hurricane Betsy (1965). New Orleans was floaded. From boats they tied the floating bodies to telephone poles so they would not float off. It was nasty and they were already puffing up. Since that day, EVERYONE knew that it would happen again and be worse since the water would be deeper as a result of the now-constructed, higher levies. For 40 years I have heard that the accepted, predicted, expected death toll would be several hundred thousand from the inevitable event you are getting a glimpse of. The amazing thing to me is that the death toll might be held under 50,000.

It could easily reach that number. The MAIN reason the death toll might be kept under 50,000 is two-fold: 1) the vast majority of people do evacuate, and 2) the rescue response has been incredibly quick and effective.

I don't know anyone around here who is surprised at what happened or its scope or the vast destruction or number of trapped people. What most are surprised at is how many survivors there are and how people without a clue can be so critical. There were a lot of people in denial.

The helicopters are all that can get into many places. They make really good TV video. Folks climbing onto a ratty boat or wading through oily water do not look really good on TV. Both choppers and boats are hauling people to dry land, in many cases to waiting busses.

These folks are in the bus and on their way in minutes, not hours.

Here's the issue. EVERYTHING is being used to get people out. Here's the deal. There were a LOT of stranded people. Those who could get themselves to the relative safety of the Dome or the Convention Center or an overpass sticking up out of the water were asked to do so. They are no longer in the water with the gators and snakes. The folks still in the water are at higher risk than those on dry land or at the Dome.

We gotta go get them out of the water first. They are in a more dire situation. Those are taken directly to busses.

Busses could not physically get to the Dome or the Convention center until later yesterday. They have been hauling people out of those areas all day today.

Let me remind everyone that there was NO warning; no planning time...

just oh ****, look what happened! From my close view, the response has been unbelievably good and phenominally rapid... the national news media notwithstanding.

BTW, a C-5 orbiting overhead while air-refueling TWO choppers at once is an impressive sight over your hometown.

Walter

 

[mikea]

Haliburton got a cleanup contract for the Navy.

http://chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3335685

Hey. as long as you got people nearby do you think you can also take on...

 

[Richard]

Haliburton got a cleanup contract for the Navy. Do you think they bid?

http://chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3335685

Let's nip this in the bud: there are but a small handful of companies worldwide which are 'qualified' to handle such work. It is not uncommon for those companies to have open contracts for such work when the need arises. I forget the official term for this, but these 'open' contracts cut through much red tape and allow for the company to mobilize their assets quickly. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Halliburton had already begun mobilizing before Katrina even reached shore. And if they didn't get the contract, such mobilization would be absorbed as cost of business or charged towards future contracts.

Those other 'qualified' companies are not crying foul to any no-bid letting of contracts; they have their share of the work too. In fact, those other companies may had even turned down the contract because it would have interfered with other work already in progress or about to commence. Also, those other companies could themselves be hired as sub-contractors on the contract in question.

Bottom line: no harm has been done to John Q. No underhanded shady dealings here. The size of these companies and the size of their contracts really put them into a whole 'nother universe. I damn well wouldn't want Louie and his five brothers getting the contract because they were low bidder.

 

[Richard]

Let me put this perspective. A very significant amount of New Orleans, Biloxi, and much of the gulf states will have to be not only rebuilt but demolished before that rebuilding can take place. While thinking of just how much work that entails be sure to include above- and below ground utilities and infrastructure like roads, bridges, and dikes, pump stations, treatment plants, railyards, shipping terminals, warehouses, schools, stores, commercial bldgs, and on and on.

By what do you measure the scope of this work? Whatever yardstick you use it better be massive. How about Boulder Dam? Or Denver's new aprt? Or the Freedom tower or whatever they're calling it these days? See, it's four years later and they have yet to agree on the design of a single building. One building! Remember, we don't have four years to decide how a region must be rebuilt.

Down south we're talking about whole cities and outlying areas. Denver's aprt took, what, 10 years after the first shovel broke ground. Costly design changes and costly delays, even after all that it still isn't what was first envisioned. But that is one aprt. Multiple that by a factor of 10. Does that cover it? 100x, is that enough? Truth be told, I cannot begin to fathom the scope of work required to rebuild in the aftermath of Katrina. I suspect those whose job it is to know don't know either.

Who is to do the work? A piecemeal approach (a la hurricane Andrew aftermath) done by thousands of independant contractors was a fiasco for which we are still paying. Shoddy work with huge cost overruns. And that was mostly SFR construction. Utilities and highrises are different.

A better rebuilding method would be to name only a few contractors to have full authority of the work. Which companies have the assets to do that? Oh, be sure to include the clause which states it all must be completed before 20xx.

Perhaps it is still to early to say this but have you considered this may well be the reconstruction of the south which has been long awaited?

 

[Tom-D]

Germany survived a lot worse than this, the ability of people to survive is unbelievable, The South will be re-built, one building at a time, one insurance check at a time.



It will be a great amount of work, But Hey! we are Americans that IS what WE do.

 

[Henning]

I got some more details on the barge from my brother in response to my questions. He said:

"She is around 400' long and about 20' wide. The 450 designation represents
450,000 bbls of product storage... Luckily she is empty....

I don't know if we can get her off the bar in one piece - we may do a lot of
damage pulling her off. I don't think we can pick her with cranes.

The last resort is to cut her up in place.

We shall see what our insurances want to do..."

Best way is just to undercut it with water jets. It's pretty much just sand and silt for a good ways down in that region so it not a big deal, take a few days and a few big pumps.

 

[RogerT]

WE'RE OK!

Great news, Steve. Wondered how you made out.

N.O. is just a heartbreaker. Guess we won't be visiting
there for a while.


RT

 

[Diana]

Well, at 5:45 pm today the hurricane was officially over at my house when the line crews energerized the branch line to the house after re-stringing the poles on my neighbor's property.

Yay! What a relief that must be for you guys.

Lotsa opportunity for volunteerism for the next several months down this way...

Steve, I would like to do something, but don't know what. I've considered helping as a nurse, but don't have a license to practice in the states down there. Do you have any suggestions?

 

[corjulo]

No good deed goes unpunished....

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050907/D8CFMBGO2.html



PENSACOLA, Fla. (AP) - Two Navy helicopter pilots were reminded of the importance of supply missions after delivering their cargo and then rescuing 110 hurricane victims in New Orleans instead of immediately returning to base, the military said Wednesday.

One of the pilots was temporarily assigned to a kennel but that was not punishment, said Patrick Nichols, a civilian public affairs officer at Pensacola Naval Air Station. "They were not reprimanded," Nichols said. "They were counseled."

This was originally reported by the New York Times. They rescued over 100 people. This is disgraceful.

 

[corjulo]

Sorry to hear all of that Bill. Here in Houston, I've heard nothing but the opposite. Luckily, it's the minority voice - unfortunately, we have to hear it.

Me, a bluest of blue State liberal, has a completely different view of Texas in light of the way they have stepped up to the plate in this Crisis. They have shown a civic and Christian spirit I certainly won't forget.

Just thought they should now we in the north east are truly impressed.

 

[ausrere]

No good deed goes unpunished....

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050907/D8CFMBGO2.html



PENSACOLA, Fla. (AP) - Two Navy helicopter pilots were reminded of the importance of supply missions after delivering their cargo and then rescuing 110 hurricane victims in New Orleans instead of immediately returning to base, the military said Wednesday.

One of the pilots was temporarily assigned to a kennel but that was not punishment, said Patrick Nichols, a civilian public affairs officer at Pensacola Naval Air Station. "They were not reprimanded," Nichols said. "They were counseled."

Looks like the Navy may be backtracking...

http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=229869331

 

[corjulo]

A lot of folks have been discussing what the media is not showing in NO. Here's a post form a guy with a son in the NG. Sounds like there's much more to relief than dealing with the nartual disaster.

Dave
======================================

Friends:

Christie and I spoke with our son just a couple of hours ago. He is in the LA National Guard and is in New Orleans. We were elated to hear his voice, but distressed by the news he related. He has been in the CBD since getting to NO. Wednesday night his squad was holding in the NO Convention Center when they were attacked by a large group carrying AK-47s. They had to fire fight their way out and made it to the Superdome. He said they have been receiving fire the entire time he has been in the CBD. This morning as they made their way from the Superdome to Bourbon/Canal area, he spent 6 clips of ammo in protecting himself. Once reaching the area, they realized that the Riverwalk was ablaze. He says that there are bodies everywhere and most have died from gunfire, not the storm. Those of us who know this element of NO have ignored it in the past and stayed away from the areas they frequent, but now they are trying to kill our young men and women who are making an effort to save those need help.

Please keep these young people in your thoughts and prayers! And let's please question our politicians why they think that is necessary to keep us in the dark to the real picture of what is going on in NO. Their denials make me want to puke! Our son said that although he was trained to do what he is now doing, he would have never believed that he would be doing it in LA. It is very perplexing for him and all those in his squad. Thanks for listening.

Dave
I was taken in by this also. But then I started checking into it.

That post is popping up all over the internet, Google it. Likely a fake. Story is a little too perfect. , Its actually kind of disgusting that people feel a need to urban legion this thing already. That or they feel a need to shift blame.

That statement about most of the dead are from gunshots is particularly ridiculous. Some have been, but MOST. This is down right racist propaganda right out of a fascist play book

 

[gibbons]

No good deed goes unpunished....

"Nichols said Udkow was in no way being punished by being put in charge of a temporary kennel in Pensacola for pets of military personnel who had been evacuated from hurricane-stricken areas."

Yea, right.

 

[SCCutler]

I am flying to Louisiana tomorrow morning to deliver some computers for a hospital, and some other stuff. Pleased to do this small thing.

 

[Richard]

I am flying to Louisiana tomorrow morning to deliver some computers for a hospital, and some other stuff. Pleased to do this small thing.

Spike, that is great news. I feel compelled to be there but don't know how to explain to my wife that the bills weren't paid this month. The best I can do at this time is to send money to several charitable orgs. You be safe and know you are in my prayers.