Just wow! This guy just can't get his clearance right

At the end of the recording after he asked for the other runway, the controller sighed (at least the narrative said he did) and told the pilot that the procedures were going to be different. I've been reading IFR clearances to pilots for over two decades. I've only just begun to receive them as a pilot.
 
I'm just saying if that is true, there is zero way the pilot would have known that considering the Hubbard Departure doesn't indicate it anywhere.
 
midlifeflyer said:
How does CRAFT make a difference? This pilot's problem was not understanding the contents of the "R". (True of most copy clearance problems.)
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Provides discipline for writing. He could then have said I have everything but R so say it slowly do I can write it. And The controller would have done just that.
 
GLMS_NC said:
Provides discipline for writing. He could then have said I have everything but R so say it slowly do I can write it. And The controller would have done just that.
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Maybe. Maybe not. This guy may even have been using CRAFT. Definitely useful but IMO all it does is give you the order in which the elements of the clearance come. And, for most pilots that is definitely a big help.

Just my perspective, but what I've seen in training, FRs and IPCs, most of the difficulty comes, not with the Clearance limit (the guy knows the destination he filed for). Altitude, Frequency (which he would already have if he looked at the charts), and Transponder code are pretty simple. Where people have trouble is a Route other than "as filed" even one as simple as this one (STAR.transition then Direct - pretty cool for an >800 NM flight!).

Here's the errors I see (and I bet he did a really good self-debrief afterward):
  • Insufficient planning. I'm not talking about the DP. Notice his first transmission. Not knowing the ATIS ID is one thing, but he also complains about not being able to contact CD; just about any reasonable official information he would look at (airport diagram, approach plates, DPs, Chart Supplement, info page on an EFB), says it is only used when the part-time Tower is closed. Also, even if he was anticipating "oh, they'll just give me direct," if you look at the en route chart for the flight Quitman VOR is pretty much on a direct route from KTKI to 7FL6. That's a real lack of planning for a flight that long (more than 800 NM) from an (I assume) unfamiliar airport in a terminal area.
  • The failure to look for potential DPs. Clearly he wasn't expecting one so didn't look at the possibilities. Perhaps he wasn't used to getting them. That wasn't my excuse but I've done that and embarrassed myself. I was given a SID and didn't understand what the controller said so I kept asking which Departure. The airport only had one and it's name was the name of the airport I was leaving! :blush::blush:. I'll bet this flight cured him of that, like it did me.
  • Learning how to write the route. This may or may not have been the result of the thirst two. Hard to say. You kind of need to write the route down like a stenographer. Just take down the sounds you hear and worry about understanding it later. It sounds a bit like he got stuck on Quitman immediately and was never able to get anything else.
Maybe it would fo some folks, but I'm not sure how a big "R" on a scratchpad helps with all that.
 
GLMS_NC said:
Provides discipline for writing. He could then have said I have everything but R so say it slowly do I can write it. And The controller would have done just that.
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I've never really written down CRAFT explicitly. I never found it helpful nor necessary. I certainly do ask for parts of clearances to be repeated prior to readback on occasion. Like "say again altitude" or "say again route after SAC 160 radial" (that last one was a LONG clearance that essentially described the route of T259 without naming it; I filed /G, so I don't know why they didn't just assign it).

It's pretty obvious from reading the clearance what the various parts are.
 
MAKG1 said:
I've never really written down CRAFT explicitly. I never found it helpful nor necessary. I certainly do ask for parts of clearances to be repeated prior to readback on occasion. Like "say again altitude" or "say again route after SAC 160 radial" (that last one was a LONG clearance that essentially described the route of T259 without naming it; I filed /G, so I don't know why they didn't just assign it).

It's pretty obvious from reading the clearance what the various parts are.
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Along those lines. When going to the LA area from NorCal I often take v23 from the linden vor all the way to lax. My clearance could read Lin V23 LAX. Instead I get Lin v23 clovis v23 shafter v23 Gorman v23 lax

I want to just tell the dude I'm typing Lin v23 to lax into my gtn and all those points and a bunch more are going to fill in for me. When they do that I have to write all those vors down and repeat each and remember how to pronounce them since they won't except linden v23 lax... I've tried.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
Along those lines. When going to the LA area from NorCal I often take v23 from the linden vor all the way to lax. My clearance could read Lin V23 LAX. Instead I get Lin v23 clovis v23 shafter v23 Gorman v23 lax

I want to just tell the dude I'm typing Lin v23 to lax into my gtn and all those points and a bunch more are going to fill in for me. When they do that I have to write all those vors down and repeat each and remember how to pronounce them since they won't except linden v23 lax... I've tried.
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Interesting. Is this when filing that same route? IOW, if you filed a flight plan that was LIN v23 LAX would they do the same or just say, "cleared as filed"?
 
MAKG1 said:
It's pretty obvious from reading the clearance what the various parts are.
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You're right. And for many, the order of a clearance becomes as internalized as the order of ATIS, an approach clearance from vectors, and the need to get the weather before one ever figures out what approach to expect or ask for.

But for others, even though I'm pretty much on record as not liking mnemonics, I understand they do help some people keep things straight and help with the readback. I just don't see how it would make a difference in the case of this pilot.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Interesting. Is this when filing that same route? IOW, if you filed a flight plan that was LIN v23 LAX would they do the same or just say, "cleared as filed"?
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Usually they'll give you the departure and transition then as filed when you first pick up the clearance, but once you get going they will reroute you. They always do. Even if your original clearance had that airway in it, they read the whole thing to you.

Not a big deal, especially during a rerouted because it doesn't take any of my time. But for the controller's sanity. If only they knew it was wasted time
 
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