Just read my first VIP TFR - Wow...

hopmedic

hopmedic

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So Obama is in Atlanta today (the TFR just started a bit ago), so I got the email from AOPA about the TFR. For the first time, I actually read it top to bottom.

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_2_1554.html
http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_2_1554.html

THE FOLLOWING OPERATIONS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED WITHIN THIS TFR: FLIGHT TRAINING, PRACTICE INSTRUMENT APPROACHES, AEROBATIC FLIGHT, GLIDER OPERATIONS, SEAPLANE OPERATIONS, PARACHUTE OPERATIONS, ULTRALIGHT, HANG GLIDING, BALLOON OPERATIONS, AGRICULTURE/CROP DUSTING, ANIMAL POPULATION CONTROL FLIGHT OPERATIONS, BANNER TOWING OPERATIONS, SIGHTSEEING OPERATIONS, MAINTENANCE TEST FLIGHTS, RADIO CONTROLLED MODEL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS, MODEL ROCKETRY, UNMANNED AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS (UAS), AND UTILITY AND PIPELINE SURVEY OPERATIONS.
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Seriously? Model aircraft flyers are expected to check for TFRs before taking out their models? I mean I'm surprised about ultralight and hang gliding, because I never would have expected guys taking off from their field in a PPC for example, would be checking before they go up to take in the view, but model aircraft??

I'm sure the rest of you being pilots aren't surprised a bit by this, but not being a pilot and never having read a TFR, I am. Wow.
 
Model airplanes....

Cop 1: Freeze punk.

Cop 2: Now land that aircraft immediately and get face down on the ground.

Cop 1: Looks like we've got ourselves a jr. freedom fighter here.

Cop 2: Just look at all the model airplanes around here, this is some kind of frickin Al Qaeda air force training base.

Kid: But, but, we're just playing in the park. We didn't do anything wrong, we swear.

Cop 1: Yeah, that's what they all say until they strap a bomb on their balsa wood cruise missile.

Kid: I want my mom.

Cop 2: Your mom can visit you in GITMO.
 
they have been told that these can pop-up and they should look for them before going out to fly . . . . now - in the real world. . . .I have never heard of model airplanes or rocket enthusiasts being seized by the USSS . . .
 
Alexb2000 said:
Model airplanes....

Cop 1: Freeze punk.

Cop 2: Now land that aircraft immediately and get face down on the ground.

Cop 1: Looks like we've got ourselves a jr. freedom fighter here.

Cop 2: Just look at all the model airplanes around here, this is some kind of frickin Al Qaeda air force training base.

Kid: But, but, we're just playing in the park. We didn't do anything wrong, we swear.

Cop 1: Yeah, that's what they all say until they strap a bomb on their balsa wood cruise missile.

Kid: I want my mom.

Cop 2: Your mom can visit you in GITMO.
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It would be funny if it weren't so possible...
 
comanchepilot said:
they have been told that these can pop-up and they should look for them before going out to fly . . . . now - in the real world. . . .I have never heard of model airplanes or rocket enthusiasts being seized by the USSS . . .
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Problem is, I go into Fry's, where they have 27 different aisle displays of various different sizes of helicopters, and I doubt the directions say anywhere to look at the FAA's web site. And that's assuming I'd read the directions... :yikes:
 
I just thought of something else... No seaplane operations either... What if I have an RC Amphib? Will I have to serve TWICE the time??? :yikes:
 
Alexb2000 said:
Model airplanes....

Cop 1: Freeze punk.

Cop 2: Now land that aircraft immediately and get face down on the ground.

Cop 1: Looks like we've got ourselves a jr. freedom fighter here.

Cop 2: Just look at all the model airplanes around here, this is some kind of frickin Al Qaeda air force training base.

Kid: But, but, we're just playing in the park. We didn't do anything wrong, we swear.

Cop 1: Yeah, that's what they all say until they strap a bomb on their balsa wood cruise missile.

Kid: I want my mom.

Cop 2: Your mom can visit you in GITMO.
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Hahahahha it's funny because it's plausible.

Which is actually kinda sad.
 
The AMA notifies modelers just like AOPA. It's hard to find kids at an rc model field, mostly 50+ yo men. I doubt anything would come from it, but no one flies at insured and sanctioned rc fields during a TFR.
 
As I sit in my office under this oppressive TFR, I feel the weight of Big Brother engulfing me. The man is here on a money grubbing mission, not to carry out the affairs of state. Ridiculous.
 
How about those Cox model planes with the control string attached that can only fly in a circle? You know that half ounce of fuel in that little engine could cause an explosion or something.

:rolleyes:
 
So what does the FAA do to those RC modelers that get caught flying in a TFR? I'm sure relatively few have pilot certificates that can be yanked.
 
Not all modelers are AMA. I wonder how many blade CX2s will be lifting off in backyards while the king is in hotlanta? We obviously need more restriction.

The whole calamity of it all is the operation that created all of this TFR nonsense is the only operation allowed within the 11 NMR TFR. Plus TFRs essentially tell Alqueda exactly where the oresident is going to be. Government stupidity at its finest.
 
Anthony said:
How about those Cox model planes with the control string attached that can only fly in a circle? You know that half ounce of fuel in that little engine could cause an explosion or something.

:rolleyes:
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Probably okay unless you are radio controlled.
 
CnBeta said:
Not all modelers are AMA. I wonder how many blade CX2s will be lifting off in backyards while the king is in hotlanta? We obviously need more restriction.

The whole calamity of it all is the operation that created all of this TFR nonsense is the only operation allowed within the 11 NMR TFR. Plus TFRs essentially tell Alqueda exactly where the oresident is going to be. Government stupidity at its finest.
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Agreed. I don't think that small ARF models are a concern and would be shocked by enforcement action. I've always assumed the model RC TFR is there to allow immediate interdiction should a model appear someplace of concern. Basically, by making such a large prohibition on RC and model rockets two potential (albeit unlikely) threats can be dealt with aggressively at first suspicion. Increasingly cheap and capable GPS navigation and remote viewing systems don't help.
 
Anthony said:
How about those Cox model planes with the control string attached that can only fly in a circle? You know that half ounce of fuel in that little engine could cause an explosion or something.

:rolleyes:
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They're ok to fly right next to AF1. It says "Radio Controlled". :rofl:

This whole thing just makes me want to go out and find the biggest rocket I can find, go downtown, and launch it. :idea:

If I'm not a pilot, what can they do? Am I responsible to know the TFR? Yes, I get the email, but what authority does the FAA have over me if I am not a pilot and not flying an aircraft?
:nonod: :nono: :no: :mad2:
 
CnBeta said:
Plus TFRs essentially tell Alqueda exactly where the oresident is going to be. Government stupidity at its finest.
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I am opposed to the TFRs like everyone else on this website, but the quoted reason is, IMHO, laughable. It is naive to think that Al Q or any other terrorist organization/individual needs a list of TFRs to determine where POTUS is.

CnBeta: I am not coming after you. This argument has been posted many times by many people and it has never held water in my viewpoint.

-Skip
 
hopmedic said:
If I'm not a pilot, what can they do? Am I responsible to know the TFR? Yes, I get the email, but what authority does the FAA have over me if I am not a pilot and not flying an aircraft?
:nonod: :nono: :no: :mad2:
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I think that is a valid question, but remember in addition to taking away flying privileges of pilots, they (SS/DHS)can also attach criminal charges to anything they deem a threat.

We are now dealing with:

stasi.jpg
 
I am glad the Obama TFRs dont mess with our flight ops. Used to make me so mad when I was a CFI.
 
Welcome to the freaking Land of the Free (only if the Government says so) :nonod:
 
I'd be interested in seeing an RC aircraft get intercepted by an F-16 :yesnod:
 
hopmedic said:
Model aircraft flyers are expected to check for TFRs before taking out their models? I mean I'm surprised about ultralight and hang gliding, because I never would have expected guys taking off from their field in a PPC for example, would be checking before they go up to take in the view, but model aircraft??
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The FAA is almost certainly exceeding its authority when it issues such broad TFRs. If you go read the statute that creates the FAA, you'll find that its authority covers only navigable air space. While the definition of navigable air space is left in part to the FAA itself, in several past court cases that reached the U.S. supreme court there were fundamental limits placed on how inclusive the FAA could define that important term. I provided links to some of the court cases I found on this subject (hardly exhaustive) in this post:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=930433&postcount=31

Just speculating, but the FAA may be deliberately issuing TFRs containing threats of action that it knows cannot be upheld in court, but it may have no intention of actually carrying through with them since it is really relying on FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) to accomplish its end goals.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Like this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvqhLawLXNE
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AWESOME!

Jim Logajan said:
The FAA is almost certainly exceeding its authority when it issues such broad TFRs. If you go read the statute that creates the FAA, you'll find that its authority covers only navigable air space. While the definition of navigable air space is left in part to the FAA itself, in several past court cases that reached the U.S. supreme court there were fundamental limits placed on how inclusive the FAA could define that important term. I provided links to some of the court cases I found on this subject (hardly exhaustive) in this post:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=930433&postcount=31

Just speculating, but the FAA may be deliberately issuing TFRs containing threats of action that it knows cannot be upheld in court, but it may have no intention of actually carrying through with them since it is really relying on FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) to accomplish its end goals.
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Gotcha! Thanks!
 
Jim Logajan said:
The FAA is almost certainly exceeding its authority when it issues such broad TFRs. If you go read the statute that creates the FAA, you'll find that its authority covers only navigable air space. While the definition of navigable air space is left in part to the FAA itself, in several past court cases that reached the U.S. supreme court there were fundamental limits placed on how inclusive the FAA could define that important term. I provided links to some of the court cases I found on this subject (hardly exhaustive) in this post:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=930433&postcount=31

Just speculating, but the FAA may be deliberately issuing TFRs containing threats of action that it knows cannot be upheld in court, but it may have no intention of actually carrying through with them since it is really relying on FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) to accomplish its end goals.
Click to expand...

Technically it's not the FAA issuing the TFRs, it's the security authorities (DHS, USSS, TSA). The FAA is merely the conduit by which the TFR is communicated.

Really no different than an airport manager that closes a runway and has the FAA issue a NOTAM. The FAA didn't issue the runway closure, it communicated the closure via the NOTAM.
 
Sac Arrow said:
So what does the FAA do to those RC modelers that get caught flying in a TFR? I'm sure relatively few have pilot certificates that can be yanked.
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The FAA has nothing to do with it, it's Homeland Security. The FAA is just a tool to disseminate the information.
 
wsuffa said:
Technically it's not the FAA issuing the TFRs, it's the security authorities (DHS, USSS, TSA). The FAA is merely the conduit by which the TFR is communicated.
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Not according to the statutes as I understand them, or according to the AIM, which tries to explain the origin and authority behind TFRs in section 3-5-3 in which it states, in part:
"Except for hijacking situations, when the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.137(a)(1) or (a)(2) are necessary, a temporary flight restrictions area will only be established by or through the area manager at the Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) having jurisdiction over the area concerned. A temporary flight restrictions NOTAM involving the conditions of 14 CFR Section 91.137(a)(3) will be issued at the direction of the service area office director having oversight of the airspace concerned. When hijacking situations are involved, a temporary flight restrictions area will be implemented through the TSA Aviation Command Center. The appropriate FAA air traffic element, upon receipt of such a request, will establish a temporary flight restrictions area under 14 CFR Section 91.137(a)(1)."
​
Otherwise the FAA accepts recommendations for TFRs from other agencies - and so far as I can tell none of the others have been delegated any direct authority over US airspace. Section 3-5-3 in the AIM has all the other details:

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0305.html

The FAA's parents, the DOT or the president, could also presumably directly dictate TFRs, but DHS and its child TSA are a different cabinet than the DOT. The DHS and TSA are probably as welcome to mess in the FAA's or DOT's affairs as the FAA or DOT's is welcome to mess in the DHS or TSA affairs.

Agency turf is no doubt closely guarded by all involved, so I think it unlikely that the FAA acts as a simple conduit for TFRs in the way some here claim.
 
I had heard the model verbiage was added after some group announced they's use models to interrupt that NATO conference in Chicago.

The powers that be wanted to be able to hang Federal charges on them if they even flew. Thus, the new wording in various VIP TFRs.

Or so I heard.
 
hopmedic said:
If I'm not a pilot, what can they do? Am I responsible to know the TFR? Yes, I get the email, but what authority does the FAA have over me if I am not a pilot and not flying an aircraft?
:nonod: :nono: :no: :mad2:
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ClimbnSink said:
Go fly a kite people:lol::rolleyes::sad:
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The FAR's cover model aircraft, kites, etc.

The only question is what kind of penalty can they impose and the NOTAMS claim "49 USC 46307" allows criminal penalties.
 
denverpilot said:
I had heard the model verbiage was added after some group announced they's use models to interrupt that NATO conference in Chicago.

The powers that be wanted to be able to hang Federal charges on them if they even flew. Thus, the new wording in various VIP TFRs.

Or so I heard.
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The limits on model aircraft have been in there all along IIRC.
 
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