Just Quit Training

Matthewc66 said:
In reading some of the responses it looks like people want an additional response from me as it was my thread.

After everyones input I will walk away from aviation.

The information I get is the same everywhere. People say you have to learn this way but then they tell you, you will never use it again.

Being this is a dangerous hobby and I don't feel safe after all this time in the plane I will move on.

Thanks for the information..

Matt
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You're doing the right thing. Hope you can find another activity to enjoy.
 
Captain said:
It's a leap, I think, to say that because a guy would like to see the charted elevation of mountians he's flying over that means he'd fly into a wall.

In fact, learning the installed equipment sounds like a good use of time on a 'checkout' flight.
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Not really, if you reread my post, he wasn't looking for the elevation of the peaks, he was trying to figure out IF HE WAS GOING TO CLEAR THE PEAKS. Those are two very different things, one is a question I would answer for him in a second, the other calls his pilotage skills into question and terminates the flight.
 
L.Adamson said:
I still use the paper too. And always pick up current charts for cross country flight planning. I do planning between the paper charts & on-line flight planners. I still draw lines on paper. Fuel & fuel stops are also calculated. Then............it's all entered into my full moving map GPS, in which calculated & actual fuel usage is monitored during the complete flight. Note: much of these flights are over mostly mountains. Perhaps 400-600 miles. I never just blindly follow a magenta line....as sometimes is suggested. In fact, I'll often make deviations from the "planned" magenta line. However, I don't use VORs. I have no nav radios in the aircraft, except for a handheld. I gave up on IFR.............because it seldom has routes, to where I want to go.

The bottom line.............teach paper flight planning, pilotage, and modern navigation (GPS, iPad, etc) as something that goes hand in hand. We don't need to learn all the old ways first, and then just dispense with it all. Using them together is what I do, and believe in.
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I agree with the bottom line you have stated. Some of your previous posts made it seem like no one needs to learn the basics anymore, and that I do not agree with. Learning the basics and tying them into the newer modern way is the better way to do it, IMNSHO. Showing the student the advantages and disadvantages of all methods would be the best way.
 
MSPAviator said:
I don't use Foreflight and didn't use a VFR aviation GPS until less than a year ago. I think you should learn to fly by pilotage and dead reckoning with a paper chart in your lap because if your iPad runs out of batteries or gets lost/stolen/broken, you can still use the old fashioned tools to get where you're going.
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Agreed. My flight school won't even let PPL students touch a plane with a glass cockpit or any of that...there is one plane with a GPS, but it doens't have a map or anything on it.

I feel like I'm a better pilot because of learning the old way. Plus, who needs a glass cockpit when flying VFR in a 172? In a King Air or something, I get it, but in VFR training?
 
And I'd counter that you are the one resorting to childish rationalizations to support your argument. But after flying all over the country in all kind of weather without any of that stuff it's clear (to me anyway) that it all falls into the category of "nice to have" vs. "need to have". I have a lot of it on the 696 and use it on every trip, as well as XM weather and Zaon traffic. It's wonderful stuff that makes it easier, but none of which was available for the first 10,000 hours.



L.Adamson said:
After reading this.....again, and the Air France comment below, it seems as if we're playing kids games, or at least you are.

Yes, the Hendricks crew was a waypoint behind. A decent size moving map, within plain sight, would have "easily" altered the outcome. If you can't see that, or pretend that you can't see it, then there is little to argue with.

Whether you agree or not.............the majority of CFIT occurs, because the crew is not aware, of what's about to happen. I get tired of the myriad of excuses that are offered, as to why the crew "should have known" Facts. are, they didn't. Today's technology easily changes that. Either accept that as reality, or don't. It's pointless, and a waste of my time to argue with.
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You can never have too much information in the air. While gismos and gadgets are a great help, when they go into a mammaries skyward mode, and they will, if you can't use a paper chart and haven't been DR' ing along with notations on your chart you can be in a corner you don't need to be in. I was once treated to an almost complete electrical failure due to a fire, at night, 1200 miles from land. On top with the three good engines we still had we used a mag compass and the stars to find Hawaii. No big deal, unless we had relied solely on electronic aids.
 
Matthewc66 said:
The information I get is the same everywhere. People say you have to learn this way but then they tell you, you will never use it again.
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I don't say that! My post said to stay away from people who say that.
 
Good call.

Matthewc66 said:
In reading some of the responses it looks like people want an additional response from me as it was my thread.

After everyones input I will walk away from aviation.

The information I get is the same everywhere. People say you have to learn this way but then they tell you, you will never use it again.

Being this is a dangerous hobby and I don't feel safe after all this time in the plane I will move on.

Thanks for the information..

Matt
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Matthewc66 said:
People say you have to learn this way but then they tell you, you will never use it again.
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I wonder where you are finding these 'people', I don't see them here.
Your decision to leave aviation is probably a good one.
 
gcd89 said:
Agreed. My flight school won't even let PPL students touch a plane with a glass cockpit or any of that...there is one plane with a GPS, but it doens't have a map or anything on it.

I feel like I'm a better pilot because of learning the old way. Plus, who needs a glass cockpit when flying VFR in a 172? In a King Air or something, I get it, but in VFR training?
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Do be aware, that many schools DO use glass 172's for initial training. In fact, in a test conducted a few years back, the glass students aced the six pac students in recieving their PPL, because they also began with navigation on day one. That's not such a bad idea.

L.Adamson
 
wabower said:
And I'd counter that you are the one resorting to childish rationalizations to support your argument. But after flying all over the country in all kind of weather without any of that stuff it's clear (to me anyway) that it all falls into the category of "nice to have" vs. "need to have". I have a lot of it on the 696 and use it on every trip, as well as XM weather and Zaon traffic. It's wonderful stuff that makes it easier, but none of which was available for the first 10,000 hours.
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This is much of my gripe. The old fuddy duddies in the group, didn't have high tech available for all those initial hours & years. So they seem to push that agenda on to younger people. As if it's a sign or courage or something....

And note: at 61, I'm not making any snide comments about the "older" generation...
 
bbchien said:
The Hendricks crew? Heck, competent "proper" IFR was all that was needed there....
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Exactly. Staying at or above published altitudes is all that is needed. People who use the terrain feature on the G1000 to avoid mountains are using it wrong. I will admit that it is nice to have, but it is not a necessity to safe IFR. The 135 freight drivers in my area safely fly every single day without a moving map..
 
Weird.

BREAK,

93K, thats a mighty fine hair you're splitting! I see your point (I think). You wanted him to look out and just know by sight if he was going to clear or not. Okay, but I can still see a guy throwing down 100+ dollars an hour wanting to maximize the training and figure out knob-ology in a plane he trying to get checked out in.

If I were in the seat I assure you I'd be able to tell by sight if we'd clear, but that wouldn't have been the point of the flight. I understand the point of the flight was to learn the particulars of that specific airplane and that would be figuring out how to get the equipment to do what it's designed to do.

Someone pointed out showing up already knowing. Okay, by that logic all flight training should be eliminated. Just read a bunch of books and then go take a check ride. Obviously that wouldn't work. I could read a G1000 manual eight hours a day for eight weeks and I guarantee the first time in the plane with it I'd have questions.
 
What ever happened to the concept of situational awareness? Do we really think that a pilot who is handed an ipad and an autopilot will ever know what he needs to know in order to have even half-decent fundamentals?

A pilot either knows where he is (and where the rocks are) or he doesn't. If he knows, everthing will work out. If he doesn't know, and understands the risks of continuing under those circumstances, that will probably work out too. It's when he doesn't know what he doesn't know that the stuff splatters, and that can happen with no goodiess or an entire cockpit full of them.

I love the pictures as much as anybody, but also understand how to use the needles and the clock. I've also been left in the dark with nothing working. Have you?

Can you point to any training program that start with fundamentals?

L.Adamson said:
This is much of my gripe. The old fuddy duddies in the group, didn't have high tech available for all those initial hours & years. So they seem to push that agenda on to younger people. As if it's a sign or courage or something....

And note: at 61, I'm not making any snide comments about the "older" generation...
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Henning said:
I currently have 3 Furuno weather fax machines, a bunch of spare parts, and an ancient Pactor modem and shortwave radio to display the NOAA Weather Fax product on my computer. (w/ Single Side Band on a boat I also can get very limited data service)
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Yup. And now Sailmail and all that jazz. Low speed digital HF still works good in the middle of the ocean. But you guys dumped needing radio operators quite some time ago with satellite for the bigger vessels. The merchant marine industry typically hires an electrician these days, not someone who knows Morse. ;)

What's it got to do with Aviation written tests having silly questions about ancient instruments on them that ask specific button-ology? Knowing how the instrument works is more important than which direction to slew it. You can read the heading on the instrument. :)

I always thought it a weird double-standard that FAA would ask that level of detail on a remote slaved compass, but not ask what buttons to push on a Garmin. Heh.
 
wabower said:
Should the fact that the Hendricks crew was one waypoint behind alter the suggestion that the GPS wasn't sufficient to avoid terrain if they had simply been able to read the approach plate and fly the approach as published?
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Let me ask it like this, do you think Hendrick's Motorsports was better off for not having advanced technical/information systems?
 
wabower said:
What ever happened to the concept of situational awareness? Do we really think that a pilot who is handed an ipad and an autopilot will ever know what he needs to know in order to have even half-decent fundamentals?

A pilot either knows where he is (and where the rocks are) or he doesn't. If he knows, everthing will work out. If he doesn't know, and understands the risks of continuing under those circumstances, that will probably work out too. It's when he doesn't know what he doesn't know that the stuff splatters, and that can happen with no goodiess or an entire cockpit full of them.

I love the pictures as much as anybody, but also understand how to use the needles and the clock. I've also been left in the dark with nothing working. Have you?

Can you point to any training program that start with fundamentals?
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I'm sure you are just as aware as I am, that CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) has occurred with pilots of numerous ratings & hours. Very high time, as well as low. Why make assertions that a "goody" such as a large moving map GPS screen with terrain, will make no difference. Oh really? Do you ever read "board of inquires" reports, regarding various CFIT?
 
Captain said:
Weird.

BREAK,

93K, thats a mighty fine hair you're splitting! I see your point (I think). You wanted him to look out and just know by sight if he was going to clear or not. Okay, but I can still see a guy throwing down 100+ dollars an hour wanting to maximize the training and figure out knob-ology in a plane he trying to get checked out in.

If I were in the seat I assure you I'd be able to tell by sight if we'd clear, but that wouldn't have been the point of the flight. I understand the point of the flight was to learn the particulars of that specific airplane and that would be figuring out how to get the equipment to do what it's designed to do.

Someone pointed out showing up already knowing. Okay, by that logic all flight training should be eliminated. Just read a bunch of books and then go take a check ride. Obviously that wouldn't work. I could read a G1000 manual eight hours a day for eight weeks and I guarantee the first time in the plane with it I'd have questions.
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I'm all for showing people all the menues and cool stuff on glass, that was part of the fight. My MAIN purpose on that flight was to determine if we would get the plane back in one piece if I let him rent it by-himself. I asked a direct CFIT question and did not get a rock solid answer of "YES we are going to clear those peaks", I just got a blank stare and more of him fiddling with the panel, hence the flight was terminated and he was not allowed to rent from us until he proved he could be trusted to fly a aircraft safely.

When I ask a PPL holder a generic CFIT, fuel reserve, engine failure, or other critical saftey related question I require a stand fast answer, it ain't open book and it ain't negotiable, but it sure as heck is pass or fail.
 
jpower said:
Where was that photo taken?
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Monument Valley. It's on the border of southeast Utah & Arizona. Lake Powell is on the backside of the mountain in the background. Page, Arizona is to the left. It's my RV6 wing in the pic.
 
L.Adamson said:
Monument Valley. It's on the border of southeast Utah & Arizona. Lake Powell is on the backside of the mountain in the background. Page, Arizona is to the left. It's my RV6 wing in the pic.
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Must be a fantastic place to fly! :yesnod:
 
Jim Logajan said:
I too had wondered why some procedures are still being taught that were designed back when vacuum tubes were all the rage.
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olasek said:
Can you be more specific which ones?
Pilots should no longer learn how to use VOR?
Pilots should not care about basic pilotage skills?
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Teaching the use of a manual E6B. (Some CFIs still seem to demand this on the theory that the one time you'll need it in the air, the battery will be dead - and shortly thereafter - so will you.)

Teaching the use of Loran-C and/or ADF. Guess if you have them installed in that 40 year old plane you have to learn them. Sigh.

Using airplanes whose radios still use half duplex amplitude modulation transceivers. The technology in your average cell phone is vastly cheaper and allows for not only full duplex audio, but digital data. Aviation is stuck in a communications time warp.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Teaching the use of a manual E6B.
Teaching the use of Loran-C and/or ADF. Guess if you have them installed in that 40 year old plane you have to learn them.
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I grant you these are good examples but his post really had nothing to do with them.
 
olasek said:
I grant you these are good examples but his post really had nothing to do with them.
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He wrote "I would like to find a school that trains with Foreflight so I can learn with what I will use in the cockpit." I'm assuming (probably incorrectly) that statement was a result of being told to do fuel usage estimates and diversion computations in the air using paper, pencil, and a manual E6B rather than something more straightforward.

Looks like he has given up, though.
 
Lots of viewpoints...
I don't know for sure what Foreflight or Top Of Climb is, but I can wing it from reading the comments... And, I haven't a clue why calculating where I will be on my route when I reach 8500 feet is a need to know item - then I am not flying corporate executives in a Falcon or a Gulfstream, so there is likely lots I don't know...

I am glad I am not todays student given the apparent emphasis on forms and calculations... I have been banging across this country in various clapped out flying machines since the end of WWII... Yeah, I can use an E6B and I take delight in shooting an ADF approach in a good crosswind - keeps the old brain active...
I'm not a troglodyte though... I have two moving map GPS in the clapped out old Apache and I enjoy knowing where I am without having to pencil in a pair of VOR radials on my dog eared chart - but the chart is there on my lap, even if barely glanced at, just in case...
On our couple of times a year trek from Michigan to Florida and back there is not a whole lot of planning... Check the weather for a few days running to be sure of our flight day weather... Fill up Fat Albert with gas... A couple of suitcases... Decide if I am going East of Atlanta this time, or West... That morning do a DUATS for any scumbag politicians getting in my way at the last minute and then call Flight Services so it is on tape that I did my homework... And away we go... Since the plane has 6 hour tanks and I have a four hour bladder, fuel is never an issue and I don't bother calculating a fuel stop... Somewhere between 3.5 and 4.5 hours I will pick an airport at random and land for fuel and a whiz... Then another 4 hours or so, and we are there... Didn't use a calculator other than my grey matter...

Now, don't try doing things my way or your CFI will burst a blood vessel in his head or go catatonic... You see, I can do things my way because I did it 'their way' and got my Aimans Certificate Of Competency, which allows me to do things my way now...

Take a break from training... You have burned out for the moment...

cheers
 
Matthewc66 said:
Being this is a dangerous hobby and I don't feel safe after all this time in the plane I will move on.

Thanks for the information..

Matt
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Do us a favor and don't take your misinformed attitude to everyone you talk to about aviation. You had an unfortunate experience but it is not the norm.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
x2, aviation may not be for you, try golf, think they have apps for that :rolleyes:

We had a guy a year or so ago, checking him out in a 172 spam can with a G1000, despite being a chart and watch kind of guy, I know my way around a G1000. We were going to be crossing a small mountain range (3-5k AGL); student keep fiddling with the G1000, I asked what he was looking for so I could help him..... he told me he was trying to find the elevation of the peaks so he would know if we were going to clear them!!!!

I asked him to look out the window and tell me if we were going to clear them (we were going to clear by 2k); he looked out the window, looked back at the G1000 and started pushing buttons. :nono:

After that I realized he would fly straight into a brick wall on a CAVU day if that little screen told him to, I terminated the flight and told him to bring her back to the airport, needless to say he was not checked out.
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Two very experienced older pilots flew a C-182 G1000 cockpit straight into the side of a local peak in the dark as they were climbing out of the valley VFR and heading SW. A route they had flown many times. It is believed they were both distracted programming a flight plan into the system and they did not have the terrain view displayed. Poor CRM.
 
Dr. O said:
Lots of viewpoints...
I don't know for sure what Foreflight or Top Of Climb is, but I can wing it from reading the comments... And, I haven't a clue why calculating where I will be on my route when I reach 8500 feet is a need to know item - then I am not flying corporate executives in a Falcon or a Gulfstream, so there is likely lots I don't know...

I am glad I am not todays student given the apparent emphasis on forms and calculations... I have been banging across this country in various clapped out flying machines since the end of WWII... Yeah, I can use an E6B and I take delight in shooting an ADF approach in a good crosswind - keeps the old brain active...
I'm not a troglodyte though... I have two moving map GPS in the clapped out old Apache and I enjoy knowing where I am without having to pencil in a pair of VOR radials on my dog eared chart - but the chart is there on my lap, even if barely glanced at, just in case...
On our couple of times a year trek from Michigan to Florida and back there is not a whole lot of planning... Check the weather for a few days running to be sure of our flight day weather... Fill up Fat Albert with gas... A couple of suitcases... Decide if I am going East of Atlanta this time, or West... That morning do a DUATS for any scumbag politicians getting in my way at the last minute and then call Flight Services so it is on tape that I did my homework... And away we go... Since the plane has 6 hour tanks and I have a four hour bladder, fuel is never an issue and I don't bother calculating a fuel stop... Somewhere between 3.5 and 4.5 hours I will pick an airport at random and land for fuel and a whiz... Then another 4 hours or so, and we are there... Didn't use a calculator other than my grey matter...

Now, don't try doing things my way or your CFI will burst a blood vessel in his head or go catatonic... You see, I can do things my way because I did it 'their way' and got my Aimans Certificate Of Competency, which allows me to do things my way now...

Take a break from training... You have burned out for the moment...

cheers
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I'm a CFI and I see nothing wrong with your way of doing it...It's how I personally fly (computerized flight plans and basic rule of thumb calculations), but the PPL PTS calls for the things to be planned out in a way that requires the use of some sort of E6B (manual or electric), so that is why it is taught. I can't think of one time where I would've needed a manual E6B to save the day (and I've made plenty of fuel and wx diversions...many without a GPS).
 
bbchien said:
The Hendricks crew? Heck, competent "proper" IFR was all that was needed there....
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Let me ask you this question Bruce, do you believe that SVT would have been a poor value investment for Hendricks Motorsport? How about an MX 20+ type MFD device? G-600? What do you honestly rate the value these products would have provided Hendricks Motorsports; an ROI if you will?
 
Legiox said:
I will buy me a Ipad for aviation flying somewhere down the line. I really feel uncomfortable when using a fold out map during cross-country (still in training). I feel like I'm spending to much time refolding map and looking down at it then having my eyes scanning the horizon. Maybe it will come with practice. But i really want one of those ipad leg boards to put on one of my legs. One less thing i have to have cramped up next to me.
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Some but no matter how proficient you become with any other system, the GPS/Moving map will provide you a substantive savings in time required for situational awareness.
 
wabower said:
What ever happened to the concept of situational awareness? Do we really think that a pilot who is handed an ipad and an autopilot will ever know what he needs to know in order to have even half-decent fundamentals?

A pilot either knows where he is (and where the rocks are) or he doesn't.
<break>
Can you point to any training program that doesn't start with fundamentals?
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These are, as you aware, not mutually exclusive issues. It's building block. You start with fundamentals (I'm assuming the doesn't I added in blue) and then add VOR and then add GPS. When they earn their PP they are fully capable and equipped for all technologies even if only iPad. I personally use Wing X Pro w/eSVT on my iPad2.

Right now I'm watching Futurama on Netflix.:D
 
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Might be time to let this thread slip into the abyss.
 
RoscoeT said:
17 year old flight sim X-pert. ;)
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Yeah, so? He may have an advantage with advanced systems. Let me tell you, it takes longer to learn more complex systems. It took me a short while to learn basic navigation on comparison to getting proficient with the 430w/500 combo. A sim pilot comes with advantages and disadvantages.
 
GCA319 said:
I'm a CFI and I see nothing wrong with your way of doing it...It's how I personally fly (computerized flight plans and basic rule of thumb calculations), but the PPL PTS calls for the things to be planned out in a way that requires the use of some sort of E6B (manual or electric), so that is why it is taught. I can't think of one time where I would've needed a manual E6B to save the day (and I've made plenty of fuel and wx diversions...many without a GPS).
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Are you saying I can't do it in my head or setup a proportion on paper if I wanted to? Are you saying I MUST support the royalties of the decendents of LT Philip Dalton?
 
I didn't read all the replies, only about the first page. In that first page were lots of good replies.

There is a reason for learning ded reckoning and pilotage. At the very least, you learn important background information. If you know the basics of flight planning, then you will understand what Foreflight is doing for you. If you understand what Foreflight is doing for you, then when the IPad/IPhone spit up in the middle of a flight you have a chance of finding your way home.

I like having a chance at that. I am only a 150+ hour pilot and I use Foreflight on both my IPhone and my IPad. I also keep a chart and an E6B on the seat next to me and try to keep the chart unfolded to my general area.

If you do not want to learn the basics of aviation, then maybe you are serving yourself and your potential passengers well. Fundamental knowledge is very good in anything you do, you know, like learning the alphabet so you can learn to read. In the case of aviation, however, fundamental knowledge takes on a different priority since this is an activity where you and your passengers can die.

I apologize if I sound like I'm lecturing or condescending, but I think this goes to attitude and judgment. Flying is something that requires a good rating in both these categories.

My $0.02,
 
Jaybird180 said:
Are you saying I can't do it in my head or setup a proportion on paper if I wanted to? Are you saying I MUST support the royalties of the decendents of LT Philip Dalton?
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For a checkride, at least with me, I just want to see that you know how to do it consistently and accurately. How you do it is up to you.
 
Matthewc66 said:
In reading some of the responses it looks like people want an additional response from me as it was my thread.

After everyones input I will walk away from aviation.

The information I get is the same everywhere. People say you have to learn this way but then they tell you, you will never use it again.

Being this is a dangerous hobby and I don't feel safe after all this time in the plane I will move on.

Thanks for the information..

Matt
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I apologize for misjudging you. You do indeed have enough wisdom to know that your attitude will make for a less than safe pilot.

What the Private Pilot Checkride is all about is determining that you will be safe to carry passengers. It seems that the FAA PTS is working by weeding out people with the wrong attitude for flying.

I'm sorry to be harsh. I expect that you are a good guy. Not everyone has the attitude and whatever it takes to safely fly an airplane. I'm sure there are other things you are quite good at and don't put you in a position to hurt someone or worse.

Very best of luck to you! Be safe in whatever you choose to do.
 
Threefingeredjack said:
You can never have too much information in the air. While gismos and gadgets are a great help, when they go into a mammaries skyward mode, and they will, if you can't use a paper chart and haven't been DR' ing along with notations on your chart you can be in a corner you don't need to be in. I was once treated to an almost complete electrical failure due to a fire, at night, 1200 miles from land. On top with the three good engines we still had we used a mag compass and the stars to find Hawaii. No big deal, unless we had relied solely on electronic aids.
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Bravo Zulu. Maybe someday I'll take up celestial navigation.
 
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