Jumped on the radio

[Ghery]

Well, some folks need to re-read the AIM and A/FD once in a while. Took the Arrow up for a quick 'enjoy the nice weather' excursion after work today. A couple trips around the patch at home and then up to PWT for a T&G before going home. Approaching PWT from the south, rwy 1 active. A few planes in the pattern (but reasonably spread out). Called a straight in at 10 miles out. Called again at 7 and 5. After the 5 mile call some guy comes up on frequency and says straight ins aren't allowed. Oh yeah? Since when? Nothing in the A/FD prohibits them at that field. Been doing them there for years. Challenged him and he comes back saying they're OK "traffic permitting". Yeah, whatever. Fit in with the flow, did my T&G, extended the up wind for traffic entering the downwind from the north turned and went home. I guess after 6 years of this it was time for someone to play radio cop at an uncontrolled field. Wonder what he would have done if I had played NORDO? Not listening there would be stupid, but nothing said I had to talk.

 

[ScottM]

When you call for your straight in aren't you also supposed to make the annoucement "any traffic in the area please advise"??

You're right they are not prohibited but it is usually nicer to try to get into the traffic flow of a standard pattern as people will expect that action and look for the traffic there.

 

[gismo]

You'll never hear me jumping on a pilot via radio for making a straight in (or any other legal approach for that matter) but I did play pattern cop briefly the other day. I was flying the Baron to a small uncontrolled field where I get most of my maintenance done. The strip has one runway 33-15 and I was flying due west with a north wind. I made my first call about 12 miles west and shortly after broadcast that I was enterring left crosswind for 33. Right after that a woman in a Piper called 5 miles east (first call) enterring a right downwind for rwy 33. This made no sense to me as I should have just passed the Piper and never saw it at all. As I made my call turning left downwind (all rwys are left traffic there) I finished the transmission with "AFaIK there is a left traffic pattern at (airport name). There was no reply but right when I was about turn base a male voice from the same Piper called 2 mile final for 33. I couldn't see the traffic so I remained on downwind. When I got about 4 miles past the end of the runway I spotted the Piper on something like a 6 mile final (they had to have been at least 8 miles out when they called the 2 mile final) so I extended even further and followed them in. I practically had to bite my tongue to keep from querring the pilots (man and wife I later learned) about there illegal pattern but I let it slide since I figured they'd ignore me on the ground as well as they did in the air. Later I wondered if they simply had the volume on the radio turned down too low.

 

[Ghery]

When you call for your straight in aren't you also supposed to make the annoucement "any traffic in the area please advise"??

You're right they are not prohibited but it is usually nicer to try to get into the traffic flow of a standard pattern as people will expect that action and look for the traffic there.

Scott,

I timed my arrival to fit into the flow, such as it was. At the time I was on short final there was another aircraft entering the 45 for the right downwind for rwy 1 and another coming straight into the downwind from the north. And, from the sound of the voice, the radio cop was the plane landing ahead of me. There was yet another plane in the pattern as well. Typical nice weather day at that airport. With my radio calls there should have been no confusion about where I was. Oh, and my distances were based on GPS to field center.

Oh well, weather permitting I'll have a nice quiet XC on Friday to PUW.

 

[SCCutler]

When appropriate, I am never afraid to execute a straight-in, nor do I keep it a secret. If there is other traffic and it appears that there is the slightest chance of a conflict, I offer accommmodations as reasonably required, and it all works out fine.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Sometimes if another pilot feels cramped for no good reason, it helps if you say "we have you, no factor".

 

[robsingles]

I will only do straight in approaches on practice insturment app's. or when I hear no traffic on the CTAF and no one speaks up when I ask. If one aircraft is in the pattern it is the standard pattern for that airport. I remember being that solo student with enough pressure on me already than to deal with a much faster airplane on a straight in....

 

[bbchien]

Right after that a woman in a Piper called 5 miles east (first call) enterring a right downwind for rwy 33. This made no sense to me as I should have just passed the Piper and never saw it at all. As I made my call turning left downwind (all rwys are left traffic there) I finished the transmission with "AFaIK there is a left traffic pattern at (airport name). There was no reply but right when I was about turn base a male voice from the same Piper called 2 mile final for 33. I couldn't see the traffic so I remained on downwind. When I got about 4 miles past the end of the runway I spotted the Piper on something like a 6 mile final (they had to have been at least 8 miles out when they called the 2 mile final) so I extended even further and followed them in. I practically had to bite my tongue to keep from querring the pilots (man and wife I later learned) about there illegal pattern but I let it slide since I figured they'd ignore me on the ground as well as they did in the air. Later I wondered if they simply had the volume on the radio turned down too low.

It is in these situations that you realize just how unfunctional many of our brethren are. Just be glad he/she made the call.

I've heard numerous pilots who can't work a VOR declare 10 east (they're ten west)....

Now remember Lance, the traffic pattern in a part 105 airport is advisory only, nonregulatory, and it's "see and be seen."

 

[gismo]

It is in these situations that you realize just how unfunctional many of our brethren are. Just be glad he/she made the call.

I've heard numerous pilots who can't work a VOR declare 10 east (they're ten west)....

Now remember Lance, the traffic pattern in a part 105 airport is advisory only, nonregulatory, and it's "see and be seen."

"advisory only, nonregulatory"??? Was that sarcasm? We're talking right vs left traffic here.

 

[bbchien]

"advisory only, nonregulatory"??? Was that sarcasm? We're talking right vs left traffic here.

No Lance, it's for real. Check it out. That's why I do my super defensive circle overhead approach. I kid you not.

And they can do it NORDO if they want, of course.

 

[gismo]

No Lance, it's for real. Check it out. That's why I do my super defensive circle overhead approach. I kid you not.

And they can do it NORDO if they want, of course.

I'm missing something here. Has the FAA rescinded the "make all turns in the pattern to the left unless..." when I wasn't looking?

 

[jesse]

I'm missing something here. Has the FAA rescinded the "make all turns in the pattern to the left unless..." when I wasn't looking?

Not that I know of. I was under the understanding that the direction of the pattern was required....How you enter it is not.

 

[bbchien]

Not that I know of. I was under the understanding that the direction of the pattern was required....How you enter it is not.

Lance, left turns are "required" if there are any turns. But your piper pilot made not turns, landing straight in. Turns are not required.

Some years ago at a neighboring county airport I was approaching for landing. At TPA abeam, after having made my calls and looking, I was confronted with a radial engine with a pair of sunglasses on top, an ag guy departing the QUICKEST path to his field, NORDO of course. I ended up doing a violent pullup and recovering from a stall at 700 agl.

The FSDO's answer was, "That field has no scheduled air service. The pattern is advisory, it's See and be Seen." And that was all.

 

[poadeleted20]

Lance, left turns are "required" if there are any turns. But your piper pilot made not turns, landing straight in. Turns are not required.

...However, Lance says the Piper pilot said she was making a right downwind entry. Nevertheless, on a straight-in, you must be established on final well outside the pattern area, and that one's adjudicated by the full NTSB on appeal from an ALJ judge's decision. You can't make a right downwind, and then claim it was just maneuvering for the straight in. Of course, if the plane did, as Lance says, establish itself on a straight-in at least 6 miles out, that straight-in was done legally, even if the pilot(s) didn't accurately report what they were doing.

 

[gismo]

...However, Lance says the Piper pilot said she was making a right downwind entry. Nevertheless, on a straight-in, you must be established on final well outside the pattern area, and that one's adjudicated by the full NTSB on appeal from an ALJ judge's decision. You can't make a right downwind, and then claim it was just maneuvering for the straight in. Of course, if the plane did, as Lance says, establish itself on a straight-in at least 6 miles out, that straight-in was done legally, even if the pilot(s) didn't accurately report what they were doing.

That pretty well sums it up. I have serious doubts about the Piper's position reports because there's no way they went from 3 miles behind me (5 east of rwy 33) to a 5 mile final in less time than it took me to fly a short crosswind and a downwind unless they were running flat out downhill. But the first and second calls (5 east, right downwind) would indicate some right turns in the pattern to end up on final. For all I know the actual path was simply a turn to a straight in final several miles beyond the pattern (which would have been fine) but that's not what was transmitted.

 

[poadeleted20]

That pretty well sums it up. I have serious doubts about the Piper's position reports because there's no way they went from 3 miles behind me (5 east of rwy 33) to a 5 mile final in less time than it took me to fly a short crosswind and a downwind unless they were running flat out downhill. But the first and second calls (5 east, right downwind) would indicate some right turns in the pattern to end up on final. For all I know the actual path was simply a turn to a straight in final several miles beyond the pattern (which would have been fine) but that's not what was transmitted.

The whole thing, including the incompatible calls and the transmissions in two different voices suggests a student training situation with the student making some errors and the instructor scrambling to clean up the mess.

 

[gismo]

The whole thing, including the incompatible calls and the transmissions in two different voices suggests a student training situation with the student making some errors and the instructor scrambling to clean up the mess.

Perhaps, but the FBO operator (my mechanic) said they were husband and wife and I got the impression that the wife was a PPL, but you may be right.

 

[poadeleted20]

Perhaps, but the FBO operator (my mechanic) said they were husband and wife and I got the impression that the wife was a PPL, but you may be right.

Husband and wife? Even worse than instructor/student, especially if she's flying and he wants to be in charge.

 

[jdwatson]

Recently, I was practicing in the pattern making all the usuall calls, up-wind, crosswind, downwind, mid-field, abeam numbers, base, as I call my turn to final I notice on the MX-20 the ADS-B alert for traffic. I look up, there's a Piper on final right in front of me as depicted on the MX-20, so cool... Not one radio call. She was shooting the ILS-4 to RWI... after that, her instructor/safety-pilot took over the calls. Head on a swivel saves the day, but that ADS-B alert and the display sure was cool.

 

[Witmo]

Recently, I was practicing in the pattern making all the usuall calls, up-wind, crosswind, downwind, mid-field, abeam numbers, base, as I call my turn to final I notice on the MX-20 the ADS-B alert for traffic. I look up, there's a Piper on final right in front of me as depicted on the MX-20, so cool... Not one radio call. She was shooting the ILS-4 to RWI... after that, her instructor/safety-pilot took over the calls. Head on a swivel saves the day, but that ADS-B alert and the display sure was cool.

Do you really call upwind, mid-field, abeam numbers in addition to calling each leg of the traffic pattern? Unless in a response to a specific request, those additional calls seem rather excessive. What do you mean when you call "upwind?" If in fact you are on a departure leg, you are not on the upwind.

 

[poadeleted20]

Do you really call upwind, mid-field, abeam numbers in addition to calling each leg of the traffic pattern? Unless in a response to a specific request, those additional calls seem rather excessive.

If it's quiet on the freq, I call each turn in the pattern (since you're most visible in the turn). Never can tell when someone else tunes in unless they like jamming the freq with "any traffic in the vicinity..."

 

[gismo]

If it's quiet on the freq, I call each turn in the pattern (since you're most visible in the turn). Never can tell when someone else tunes in unless they like jamming the freq with "any traffic in the vicinity..."

I generally do the same. You never know when someone's just listening and not talking. And Usually once you are down to pattern altitude you aren't covering a huge area with your transmissions.

 

[jdwatson]

Do you really call upwind, mid-field, abeam numbers in addition to calling each leg of the traffic pattern? Unless in a response to a specific request, those additional calls seem rather excessive. What do you mean when you call "upwind?" If in fact you are on a departure leg, you are not on the upwind.

In general, I don't make all those calls, but that day I was all alone in the pattern, it was hazy and there were other aircraft in the vicinity. RWI, W03, ETC, LHZ are pretty popular places to practice, especially instrument approaches at RWI. Most of this information wasn't in the original post.

I usually call downwind, base, final & short-final while in the pattern. I use the Transitioning to the Pattern from AVweb to get in the pattern. You're correct about calling "upwind" while in the pattern, I call that while transitioning.

 

[Witmo]

In general, I don't make all those calls, but that day I was all alone in the pattern, it was hazy and there were other aircraft in the vicinity. RWI, W03, ETC, LHZ are pretty popular places to practice, especially instrument approaches at RWI. Most of this information wasn't in the original post.

I usually call downwind, base, final & short-final while in the pattern. I use the Transitioning to the Pattern from AVweb to get in the pattern. You're correct about calling "upwind" while in the pattern, I call that while transitioning.

I looked at the AVweb article and there's much to discuss here. I don't like the call "outbound on the 45 for Rwy 27." What the heck is that! If you're going to fly an upwind leg why not descend and turn crosswind once you've cleared for any pattern traffic? If I want to overfly the center of the field I'd do it 500 above TPA and announce overhead the field at XXXX feet transitioning to the left/right downwind Rwy 27 off the 45 and dispense with calling outbound on the 45. I'd delay a descent until I was clear the downwind and ready to turn around onto the 45 (agree here). I don't see the point of the flying upwind at all if you intend on flying across the pattern and entering via the 45.

 

[Witmo]

I generally do the same. You never know when someone's just listening and not talking. And Usually once you are down to pattern altitude you aren't covering a huge area with your transmissions.

At pattern altitude I hear all the pattern calls from a busy airfield 77nm away (except maybe "short final").

 

[jdwatson]

I use the AVweb technique because it fits well with my IFR training. I start my descent in the 180 degree turn back to the 45. Conditions allowing, by the time I finish the turn, I'm at TPA, on the 45 and configured for the pattern. I really like this technique at new airports. For me, it yields a consistent traffic pattern, situational awareness and good landings.

I concede it's not as time & fuel efficient as those who directly join the pattern from whence they came. YMMV.

 

[n20junkie]

i fly straight in's all the time, it really ****es off some of the guys, usually CFI's that feel that the FAA gave them a license to instruct anyone any time as they see fit, even over the radios. If you tell me something over the radio besides a position report, or that my plane is losing sheetmetal panels, then we will have a nice conversation on the ground, and i can show you what the army taught me about instruction, and butt chewings for being stupid over the radios.