John King Denied Medical

Morgan3820 said:
As you said, my health, my call.
Doctors do relatively little. A cardiologist friend of mine observed that in about half of heart attacks, death is the first symptom. The rest live.
If the FAA was more reasonable and less stupid things would be better.
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Ask your cardiologist friend if someone who has a heart attack or seizure should forego any medical attention to determine cause or damage.
 
azure said:
By that logic, I (and my Cardinal) could just go "fly anyway". :(

I don't think "high profile" is really relevant here.
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...and what's the percentage of pilots in Alaska that don't even have certificates? (I hear it's high).
 
dans2992 said:
...and what's the percentage of pilots in Alaska that don't even have certificates? (I hear it's high).
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That story always floats but never seems to be corroborated. The issue there of course is that there literally aren't roads to some places and people use airplanes like cars in some areas of AK, so it's a bit of an anomaly. Cutting someone off from literally getting home isn't very politically correct up there in areas where airplanes are tools and not a luxury.
 
dmspilot said:
Gleim is the accounting guy.

My understanding is that in the 80s the Kings did a traveling weekend groundschool that became quite popular, so they decided to put it to video. Not sure what they were doing before then.
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I thought I read somewhere that he was into competitive martial arts prior to the flying gig
 
Wasn't their first successful training business making accounting courses? Or was that Gleim?
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That was old Irwin Gleim. Gleim is still in that business.

I was under the impression it was the Kings but one of them made their nut from the hoard of people who wanted to pass accounting tests not the relatively small number of pilots taking tests in comparison.
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They pretty much only have made pilot courses. They have dabbled in A&P videos, too. (though there is confusion because there is also a King School of Aeronautics which is a different operation that is an A&P training operation). They made a ham radio license course at one point.
 
No lie, in 1982 I was sent to work a tower in RI (Quonset) during the FAA controller strike and while TDY there I did some flight instruction. One guy I did some with mentioned "we" (he & I) ought to make some VHS courses on flight training. I of course brushed it off. Who knew?

Besides, my motto has always been "My luck when my ship comes in I'll be at the airport".
 
dans2992 said:
...and what's the percentage of pilots in Alaska that don't even have certificates? (I hear it's high).
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I knew just as many people flying without any certificate in Alaska as I knew in the lower 48.
 
Zeldman said:
I knew just as many people flying without any certificate in Alaska as I knew in the lower 48.
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Yup. I knew a few at the field where I instructed in Alabama, and owned their plane too.
 
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Zeldman said:
I knew just as many people flying without any certificate in Alaska as I knew in the lower 48.
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I'll bet,,If you want to get ramp checked, try being the stranger at Merrill field or lake hood.
 
Question on the NTSB hearing/ decision.

If John looses, is there a chance to get it overturned or is that the end of it?

Who would he appeal to?
 
After appealing with the FAA you go to an NTSB administrative law judge. After that you can appeal to the NTSB board itself. After running out of the administrative remedies, you can take it to Federal District Court. he problem is, that unless there's some procedural error or Constitutional challenge, he won't win there. As Bob Hoover and a few other people like FlyteNow can tell you, the law is that the agency gets to set their own regulations and they are the presumed correct source for interpreting them.
 
flyingron said:
After appealing with the FAA you go to an NTSB administrative law judge. After that you can appeal to the NTSB board itself. After running out of the administrative remedies, you can take it to Federal District Court. he problem is, that unless there's some procedural error or Constitutional challenge, he won't win there. As Bob Hoover and a few other people like FlyteNow can tell you, the law is that the agency gets to set their own regulations and they are the presumed correct source for interpreting them.
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We should also be careful to point out that many people think this is like criminal law appeals processes where there's a some profit motive to go ahead and allow the appeal more often than not, for the attorneys and judge involved.

There's nearly none in administrative law. The ALJ may simply decide not to hear the case and the full NTSB declines cases all the time without anything more than a staffer reading them and sending the denial.

Of course that sort of denial happens in the traditional court appeals system too, but it's much more common in administrative and regulatory law. It may be "over" already even if an appeal is filed.
 
Morgan3820 said:
My take away is do not tell anyone anything. He went to the hospital and now it is on the record. One event does not make a trend. Say I told the FAA that I got dizzy by standing up. I know that it was because I was dehydrated and stood up too fast but the FAA won't care. If he had not gone he would have his 3rd class.
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Yep, I had an unexplained syncope due to fatigue and dehydration. Doctor agreed it wasn't a problem. But to prove a negative to the FAA was too hard and expensive. I decided on the Light Sport rather than take a chance on denial. Eight years later and never another instance.
 
ejensen said:
Yep, I had an unexplained syncope due to fatigue and dehydration. Doctor agreed it wasn't a problem. But to prove a negative to the FAA was too hard and expensive. I decided on the Light Sport rather than take a chance on denial. Eight years later and never another instance.
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I always wondered why you did, but never felt it my business to ask. Plus, your airplane is nifty anyway. I can't think of many Private rated folk flying with medicals who wouldn't enjoy it!
 
MauleSkinner said:
Ask your cardiologist friend if someone who has a heart attack or seizure should forego any medical attention to determine cause or damage.
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Of course he would have him go to the doctor, it is how he makes a living.

So, after a hot summer day, dehydrated, I sit down and have few brews, then get dizzy standing up, should I then run to the ER and then report it to the FAA?

I'm just saying that a little common sense is needed because the FAA has none.
 
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Morgan3820 said:
Of course he would have him go to the doctor, it is how he makes a living.

So, after a hot summer day, dehydrated, I sit down and have few brews, then get dizzy standing up, should I then run to the ER and then report it to the FAA?

I'm just saying that a little common sense is needed because the FAA has none.
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I didn't say anything about being dizzy from dehydration & alcohol. There's a big difference between that and a seizure or heart attack, and applying common sense would seem to require getting checked out after the seizure or heart attack, regardless of the FAA's position.

If I'm going to fly illegally, I'd rather do it without a medical knowing that I'm healthy than with an invalid medical not knowing whether or not the condition will recur.
 
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Feinting or blacking out because you're dehydrated or hot or whatever, is not an unexplained LOC, let alone a seizure.

Again, there are clear FAA standards on this and based on the public press, John doesn't meet them. The courts are not going to overrule the FAA's standards. They can not under the law. That's not how this work. John's wasting his time.

Unless there is more to this case than as stated, John's lawyers are reprehensible if they didn't tell him there's no possibility of a positive outcome.
 
I love my wings but dang I'm afraid if I had a history of seizures (even rare ones) I would be ok with hanging it up.
 
flyingron said:
Feinting or blacking out because you're dehydrated or hot or whatever, is not an unexplained LOC, let alone a seizure.
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Even if explained, it's enough to put you through a whole lot of FAA pain though!
 
denverpilot said:
I always wondered why you did, but never felt it my business to ask. Plus, your airplane is nifty anyway. I can't think of many Private rated folk flying with medicals who wouldn't enjoy it!
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I'm glad I found it. The old planes that meet LSA are way too slow and cramped for me. The euro stuff has no room for anything but a small day pack. And I could live with 120 knot cruise on 6.2 gph.
 
flyingron said:
Feinting or blacking out because you're dehydrated or hot or whatever, is not an unexplained LOC, let alone a seizure.

Again, there are clear FAA standards on this and based on the public press, John doesn't meet them. The courts are not going to overrule the FAA's standards. They can not under the law. That's not how this work. John's wasting his time.

Unless there is more to this case than as stated, John's lawyers are reprehensible if they didn't tell him there's no possibility of a positive outcome.
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Technically they could overrule (the only way to challenge administrative law) but the chance of them doing so is infinitesimally small. There is plenty of precedent for deferring to expert judgement, and the agency is presumed to be expert.
 
Did he even actually have a seizure? Last week my mother collapsed on the front porch after downing a large cold frappachino. She had been sick with a cold that day and hadn't eaten much. My two sisters were there; one said "Stroke! I'll call 911." The other said "Seizure! Her arms are moving around." She regained consciousness and vomited. The ambulance came, said she was dehydrated, took her to the ER where they did a CT scan and gave her fluids. The diagnosis was "she fainted". No mention of seizure or even dehydration. She recovered and went home. Next day followup with her GP, who said "I don't believe she had a seizure nor was dehydrated. I believe she had a vagus nerve reaction from drinking all that cold drink too fast on an empty stomach. Her arms were waving around because that's what old people might do when they faint."

So my question is, if someone has a "seizure" while out with family, can it be subsequently back-diagnosed by residual tracings on an EEG? Or do the doctors simply take the word of family members on what it looked like?
 
Rushie said:
So my question is, if someone has a "seizure" while out with family, can it be subsequently back-diagnosed by residual tracings on an EEG? Or do the doctors simply take the word of family members on what it looked like?
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The problem is that once the doc documents it as a seizure based on the word of family members, the burden of proof is on the individual to prove it wasn't.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The problem is that once the doc documents it as a seizure based on the word of family members, the burden of proof is on the individual to prove it wasn't.
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Yes and in that case not at all possible. It would be like trying to prove you didn't sing a certain song on that day. Only if you had 24 hour video surveillance could you prove a negative like that, and we're not quite there yet, are we?
 
Morgan3820 said:
My take away is do not tell anyone anything. He went to the hospital and now it is on the record. One event does not make a trend. Say I told the FAA that I got dizzy by standing up. I know that it was because I was dehydrated and stood up too fast but the FAA won't care. If he had not gone he would have his 3rd class.
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I know some older pilots who practice this philosophy - they never divulge a thing and keep getting their 3rd class medicals. In other words, they lie by omission. It's got me thinking that anytime I see a person older than, say, +/- 70 with a medical, they're probably not telling their AME the whole truth.
 
Although I would prefer it if the FAA would accept the findings of doctors who have actually examined the patient, this sounds like a workable compromise for someone who always flies with another pilot anyway.
 
I'm wondering whose cornflakes hhe wizzed in.
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I also know that a trip to the ER costs money. Diag'd as one code, they get a certain amount for. Coded as something else, they get less. It is a business. I would code what gets me the most money as long as I could explain it.
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My trip to the ER was, in the end, treated as a back muscle issue with a follow up of 10 weeks of PT. So how would the FAA rate it?
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Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm screwed.
 
silver-eagle said:
I'm wondering whose cornflakes hhe wizzed in.
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I also know that a trip to the ER costs money. Diag'd as one code, they get a certain amount for. Coded as something else, they get less. It is a business. I would code what gets me the most money as long as I could explain it.
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My trip to the ER was, in the end, treated as a back muscle issue with a follow up of 10 weeks of PT. So how would the FAA rate it?
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Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm screwed.
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Why would you be screwed?
 
denverpilot said:
Wonder how many folks in the same position who aren't famous, can't get any traction and give up.
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Even if EVERYONE gets the same dispensation, it will only benefit those who exclusively fly with another qualified pilot on board.
 
Palmpilot said:
Even if EVERYONE gets the same dispensation, it will only benefit those who exclusively fly with another qualified pilot on board.
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That restriction would make the certificate useless to any of us. It only works for him since he flies a two-pilot jet with his wife and they both need to have a medical to fly it.
 
MassPilot said:
That restriction would make the certificate useless to any of us. It only works for him since he flies a two-pilot jet with his wife and they both need to have a medical to fly it.
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Exactly.
 
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