JetBlue and American... What will the fines be?

[denverpilot]

So of course we're all aware of the weather-induced JetBlue stranding of folks in an aircraft for seven hours again.

(Anerican also did it, but their PR folks seem to have much much more of a clue, so far. They're shutting up.)

http://www.businessinsider.com/jetblue-flight-stuck-tarmac-7-hours-apology-2011-10

We also all know the Captain was basically begging for help on the radio. You gotta love Dave Pascoe and LiveATC.net.

Here's what I just heard that shocked me...

ABC News has a recording of the JetBlue COO stating that he expects better from "crews and operations" from an apology video he apparently posted.

Holy crap. He's blaming the crew who was begging for help -- for his department's screw ups and takes no blame himself.

Wow. Leadership 101. Your staff's screw-ups are YOUR screw ups, ass-hat. And even calling these events screw-ups

Even worse, anyone listening to ABC will believe this crap if they don't hear the follow-on with the radio recording of the crew asking for not only help, but the police to handle unruly pax at one point. He says he's got a paraplegic and a diabetic both with medical issues and help still doesn't arrive.

I'm trying to find a link to his apology video but haven't found it yet. I wouldn't be too surprised if someone with at least two brain cells to rub together in JetBlue executive management, pulls it and replaces it.

Yeah, there's plenty of blame to go around, but this prick doesn't even appear to be aware of the recording of his own crew asking for help, as he stabs them in the back.

It's this kind of BS that makes me want to hurl when I read salary and stock compensation numbers for asshats like this guy.

I hope JetBlue gets fined the full $27K per passenger, and the company lawyers find a way to take it right straight out of the COO's pocket. Anyone not willing to keep informed enough about what information is out already and blames their crews in this situation, isn't worthy of having a "leadership" title.

What a dip****.

 

[SCCutler]

Nate:

What you said.

/s/ Spike

 

[Anthony]

Yes, they guy is a twit. He needs to take responsibility.

 

[Geico266]

I don't get it. There has to be a way to get people off of an airplane. Period. Get some buses, a ladder, open the freakin door and get the people off. Certainly, someone can figure out something better than keeping humans beings locked up in an airplane against their will for 7 hours? Are you kidding me?

 

[Anymouse]

I don't get it. There has to be a way to get people off of an airplane. Period. Get some buses, a ladder, open the freakin door and get the people off. Certainly, someone can figure out something better than keeping humans beings locked up in an airplane against their will for 7 hours? Are you kidding me?

I haven't looked too deep into the story, but from what I understand that the police did show up and boarded the airplane. That means they had some stairs next to the plane for a short while. So, why couldn't they simply escort the passengers down the stairs and into the terminal? The RJs do that all the time.

Also, if all the planes on on a hold, that means there's probably empty planes sitting at the gates. Push one back, and let the other plane empty out.

It ain't rocket science.

 

[Anthony]

Are there any regs that would not allow deplaning there?

 

[EppyGA]

Are there any regs that would not allow deplaning there?

I think the AA plane was a flight from France and supposedly there was no customs folks to clear them so they couldn't de-plane. Of course we knew who each person was, had their passport number, etc but couldn't let them off while we let folks cross the border everyday and we have no idea who they are.

 

[wsuffa]

I think the AA plane was a flight from France and supposedly there was no customs folks to clear them so they couldn't de-plane. Of course we knew who each person was, had their passport number, etc but couldn't let them off while we let folks cross the border everyday and we have no idea who they are.

THen the airline must weigh the fine for keeping 'em on board against the fine and possible criminal charges for letting 'em leave. They can always contest an FAA fine by pointing the finger at DHS/CBP.

Then again, having stood in line for 90 minutes more than once at major US airports waiting to clear Immigration & Customs (as a returning citizen), they may well have been better off staying on the plane.....

 

[iflyatiger]

I posted this on the red board and it fits right in to this tread also..

Really, what is wrong with the people in charge ?

Poverty stricken 3rd world countries can have airstair trucks at their airports that handle commercial traffic but it seems no one here can think of or implement something so logical and simple...

If an airport gets any money from the faa and is an airport were commercial flights could land as an alternate then they should be required to have the capabilities to offload passengers.

I feel for the people on those planes and I guess I also fear that happening to me..

 

[jtheune]

Rather then bashing the airline why is no one bashing the airport? They control the ground movement and the placement of things like air stairs.

 

[catmandu]

The only thing I trust is what I heard on LiveATC. Everything else is media speculation and corporate spin. Maybe down the road we can figure out who to blame, if anyone.

 

[wsuffa]

The only thing I trust is what I heard on LiveATC. Everything else is media speculation and corporate spin. Maybe down the road we can figure out who to blame, if anyone.

I didn't listen to the LiveATC feed. Was it complete, or was it edited? Was it full length (for context) or limited? Was it fixed to a single frequency or was it a scanner?

If it was full-length, unedited, and locked-frequency, I'd agree with you. If not, I'd wonder what I was missing.

 

[Martin404]

In 7.5 hours, Jet Blue could have sent luxury buses and steak dinners up there from NYC to fetch these poor folks (no toilets? UGH.). Fine 'em the max. The 3-hour rule was put in place because of Jet Blue's clueless operations people. Don't let them skate this one. Make an example of them. The next 7.5 hour delay could have you on board.

 

[Rex Kramer]

In 7.5 hours, Jet Blue could have sent luxury buses and steak dinners up there from NYC to fetch these poor folks (no toilets? UGH.). Fine 'em the max. The 3-hour rule was put in place because of Jet Blue's clueless operations people. Don't let them skate this one. Make an example of them. The next 7.5 hour delay could have you on board.

Yep wasn't like there was 15" of snow coming down around this time....



Posted from another board from someone coming in from overseas as it appears by his talking about customs.

If you were'nt there, you don't know wtf you're talking about! I WAS!! Different company, same time. Within about a four minute period of time we were told: 1. Boston was no longer taking ANY diverts...PERIOD! 2) About a minute later...holding delays for JFK were now INDEFINITE. 3. At that point a couple of us in holding for JFK decided to Bingo to BDL which was showing 1 mile vis in -SN. (Closest alternates given by Approach were now Syracuse, Albany and someplace in New Hampshire.) About a minute after that Approach said "if you are not already going to BDL it is now closed to diverts." New ATIS for BDL then shows 1/4 mile, +SN RVR 3000. We joined a 25 mile conga line final to Bradley, let a couple of guys who were more scosh on gas than we were in front of us, and landed. BDL is a "Customs by prior arrangement" airport. We waited hours just for the Customs guys to show up. Customs building had NO power...no working jetbridge (on the ONLY jetbridge.) All the while a heavy, wet snow was falling at a time of the year NO ONE expected it. I'm sure people had no idea where the keys to the deicing trucks even were let alone the status of the fluid. Airplanes around the field had to be refueled from trucks, wherever they sat. The Airport Authority first had to figure out if that was even legal before they would fuel anybody off the gates. Trees were down everywhere in Hartford (which I saw on the ride back from the Hotel the next day) due to heavy snow on the tree leaves which had not yet fallen and power was out all over the city. I have to commend the JetBlue Captain for doing the BEST he could with what he had to work with...which wasn't much. I could hear the frustration in his voice and thought he maintained his professionalism despite the circumstances he was in.

A second part:

TAF KBDL 291120Z 2912/3018 02007KT P6SM OVC100
FM291500 03010KT P6SM OVC070
FM291800 03010G18KT 2SM RA BR OVC020
FM292200 02014G22KT 3/4SM -SN BR OVC010

BDL went 1/4SM +SN at 1740Z and stayed that way all night, picking up 20" of snow. This might be the worst TAF I've ever seen.

JFK lost the LOC for 4R and the GS for 13L with a gusty NE wind. EWR lost their 4R LOC as well. BOS was turning diversions away.

FWIW regarding Jetblue blaming the crew members, if I remember correctly Jetblue calls all of their employees, or at least ops employees, "crew members", so it's possible he wasn't actually referring to the pilots and flight attendants aboard the aircraft, but to the company operations as a whole.



I'm not saying sitting on a plane for 7hrs is fun and in a perfect world it would never happen, but I'd rather do that than be pulled out of the snow covered wreckage of a plane because they tried to go to their destination then got sent to the alternate which couldn't take them even though they could actually land, then sent somewhere else with the same thing happening, eventually running out of fuel and options.

I personally would not have wanted BDL as an alternate, but then again I never want anything near the cluster**** that is the NE corridor as an alternate. I'd rather have SYR or BUF or anything else that is NW. For whatever reason, these guys didn't have that option fuel wise. Judging from the TAF at BDL the forecast was pretty far off.

 

[jjflys]

So this may be a really stupid question (I'm just a lowly PP and I am NOT blaming the crew), but why can't they keep the engines and/or apu running for ventilation/lighting etc? I know this flight was from Ft Lauderdale so I don't know how much fuel they had left. I'm assuming it's probably against company and/or FAA rules but at this point if I was PIC I would be saying to hell with the "rules". At 7.5 hours I might just pop the slides!

 

[Rex Kramer]

So this may be a really stupid question (I'm just a lowly PP and I am NOT blaming the crew), but why can't they keep the engines and/or apu running for ventilation/lighting etc? I know this flight was from Ft Lauderdale so I don't know how much fuel they had left. I'm assuming it's probably against company and/or FAA rules but at this point if I was PIC I would be saying to hell with the "rules". At 7.5 hours I might just pop the slides!

They can (and usually do) use the APU to keep the plane powered and climate controlled. Sometime the APU is deferred and so it won't be available. An engine can also be used, but it will go through fuel at a much higher rate. Also there can be local rules about where you can sit with an idling engine and also ground safety considerations. Not saying that applied at BDL as I doubt there were ground crews running around. Eventually, even with an APU, you'll run out of fuel, but that should take some time.

 

[maddog52]

So this may be a really stupid question (I'm just a lowly PP and I am NOT blaming the crew), but why can't they keep the engines and/or apu running for ventilation/lighting etc? I know this flight was from Ft Lauderdale so I don't know how much fuel they had left. I'm assuming it's probably against company and/or FAA rules but at this point if I was PIC I would be saying to hell with the "rules". At 7.5 hours I might just pop the slides!

Where was it writen that they were without power? I didn't see that anywhere. The Air Bus APU will burn 290 lbs per hour when supplying pneumatics for air conditioning and electric power. An idling engine will burn between 800 and a 1000 lbs/hour. Assuming they landed with at least 45 minutes of fuel (around 4000 pounds) they had at least 13 hours on the APU and 4 or 5 hours with an idling engine. If the APU was deferred for some reason, they could conceivably have run out of fuel during the 7 hour sit.

No company I know of and no Captain in his right mind would have willingly cut off electrics and air to his pax in this situation, even if there were some local rule about it.

Popping the slides would be a supremely bad idea. It's a virtual certainty that some one will be injured. Then once you are on the ground, you have to find your way to the terminal which could be a half mile or more away while walking through freezing temperatures, a foot of snow on the ground and snow still falling.

These situations are rarely as simple to resolve as people like to think they are.

 

[denverpilot]

We all know 7.5 hours is less than a typical International flight, so it's not the end of the world.

The things that seem to be a problem are the lack of water, and lavs that were (I'm guessing) full/in-op. That's going to happen sitting on the ramp... no big surprises there, and survivable for any healthy adult.

The real kicker is that they couldn't get assistance to a paraplegic who was having medical issues, and a diabetic (who may or may not have been having issues, but probably should have been able to deal with their condition themselves unless they did something goofy like check their insulin in checked baggage).

And there's that pesky problem that all-of-the-above is illegal now... so you'd better have a better plan than just to hope you don't get fined.

I can get a contract that'll get me a giant truck full of diesel fuel to a datacenter in virtually ANY conditions, with the only stipulation being that the hospital and the morgue get priority over me. It's not cheap. In fact, it's god-awful expensive.

Airlines can pony up some bucks to have some gear that can get through snow, is certified by whatever authorities need be happy, to be on the ramp, that can gather up people and get them off. I foresee some big-tired heavy, chain-wearing 4WD air stair trucks in the airline's future... 'cause those will be cheaper than a $27K/pax fine.

Anyone want to modify some dump trucks?

 

[Ghery]

We all know 7.5 hours is less than a typical International flight, so it's not the end of the world.

What international trips are you talking about?

Last month - SEA-NRT-ICN and back. SEA-NRT is over 7.5 hours.

This month - SEA-YVR-SYD-PER. YVR-SYD is WAY over 7.5 hours.

You might make the argument for September's SEA-EWR-MAN trip, but if you think of the overall SEA-MAN purpose, 7.5 hours wasn't even close. And let's not talk about SEA to CPT via whatever route you want.

 

[Bob Noel]

What international trips are you talking about?

Last month - SEA-NRT-ICN and back. SEA-NRT is over 7.5 hours.

This month - SEA-YVR-SYD-PER. YVR-SYD is WAY over 7.5 hours.

You might make the argument for September's SEA-EWR-MAN trip, but if you think of the overall SEA-MAN purpose, 7.5 hours wasn't even close. And let's not talk about SEA to CPT via whatever route you want.

It seems to me that you are in agreement.

 

[jesse]

What international trips are you talking about?

Last month - SEA-NRT-ICN and back. SEA-NRT is over 7.5 hours.

This month - SEA-YVR-SYD-PER. YVR-SYD is WAY over 7.5 hours.

You might make the argument for September's SEA-EWR-MAN trip, but if you think of the overall SEA-MAN purpose, 7.5 hours wasn't even close. And let's not talk about SEA to CPT via whatever route you want.

He said 7.5 hours is less than many international trips. You respond with international trips that exceed 7.5 hours. Then you say he is wrong. Did you read what he wrote?

 

[p1l0t]

I don't get it. There has to be a way to get people off of an airplane. Period. Get some buses, a ladder, open the freakin door and get the people off. Certainly, someone can figure out something better than keeping humans beings locked up in an airplane against their will for 7 hours? Are you kidding me?

Exactly. If I was the pilot I would just let them out. 7.5 hours is inhumane and I would not have any part of it. These excuses that come out for things that were easily preventable by simple common sense are a sign of the lazy, short_sighted, careless, society that we have become. Its basically unlawful detention as far as I am concerned and the pax are entitled to pain and suffering.

<---<^>--->

 

[ClimbnSink]

It won't stop until people start popping slides and making a mess of things.

 

[maddog52]

Exactly. If I was the pilot I would just let them out. 7.5 hours is inhumane and I would not have any part of it. These excuses that come out for things that were easily preventable by simple common sense are a sign of the lazy, short_sighted, careless, society that we have become. Its basically unlawful detention as far as I am concerned and the pax are entitled to pain and suffering.

<---<^>--->

The door sils on an A320 are 12 feet above the ground. You can't simply open the door and let people out. Letting people use the steep slides guarenntees injuries. Even using ladders would be extremely dangerous. And once they are down, they are in the middle of a snowstorm with no shelter. If the pilot had done this, he would be guilty of endangering his passengers. That would be inhumane and unlawful. Being on the airplane for 7.5 hours is inconveinant, uncomfortable, and miserable at worst. Calling it inhumane is indicative of an "all about me", instant gratification, pampered society that has no clue about what real suffering is.

 

[CJones]

Then once you are on the ground, you have to find your way to the terminal which could be a half mile or more away while walking through freezing temperatures, a foot of snow on the ground and snow still falling.

Sounds a lot like boarding the flight from SEA to PANC last November for Thanksgiving...

 

[Ghery]

He said 7.5 hours is less than many international trips. You respond with international trips that exceed 7.5 hours. Then you say he is wrong. Did you read what he wrote?

Too early in the morning. If I drank coffee I'd claim that it was before I had any, but not having that excuse... Oops.

 

[ClimbnSink]

They have stairs on wheels you know. And scissor lifts, it would take a lot less then 7 hours to empty the plane a few at a time with a scissor lift. And oh my gosh the people would be outside in the snow, just like they will be when they walk into the parking lot. A man could build a lot of shanks in 7 hours.

The door sils on an A320 are 12 feet above the ground. You can't simply open the door and let people out. Letting people use the steep slides guarenntees injuries. Even using ladders would be extremely dangerous. And once they are down, they are in the middle of a snowstorm with no shelter. If the pilot had done this, he would be guilty of endangering his passengers. That would be inhumane and unlawful. Being on the airplane for 7.5 hours is inconveinant, uncomfortable, and miserable at worst. Calling it inhumane is indicative of an "all about me", instant gratification, pampered society that has no clue about what real suffering is.

 

[denverpilot]

Calling it inhumane is indicative of an "all about me", instant gratification, pampered society that has no clue about what real suffering is.

Yep, more suffering would fix 'em! Let's arrange some! Who gets to punch the first passenger in the throat who wants off the plane?

ROFL!

Two rednecks and a jacked up pickup truck could have shuttled people off of that airplane easily. You East Coast people need more rednecks. And jacked up pickup trucks.

Some guy told me today he's been busy for *days* from the 12" of snow back there. (Connecticut I think it was?) He'll get back to me later, he says. Huh?

We had 12" of snow last night and my only problem is that I broke the drive belt on the John Deere's auger in the wet stuff. Darn. Had to use the shovel to finish. Belt's probably the original, too.

 

[wsuffa]

We had 12" of snow last night and my only problem is that I broke the drive belt on the John Deere's auger in the wet stuff. Darn. Had to use the shovel to finish. Belt's probably the original, too.

What was the water content of your snow? The stuff we got here was heavy - like a melting sno-cone - and the leaves are still on the deciduous trees. Really not a good combo.

 

[denverpilot]

What was the water content of your snow? The stuff we got here was heavy - like a melting sno-cone - and the leaves are still on the deciduous trees. Really not a good combo.

Same here. Thus how I broke the auger drive belt.

We get this every Fall. It's our normal way to water the grass after that last feeding.

You guys have more trees though. Denser. See?

Out here it's neighborhood by neighborhood for trees. I'm in an older 'hood, so we have 'em.. all 25'-30' high or so.

We also seem to have a lot of these...

That particular one was doing the street a block from the house.

I just packed the side driveway down with the Yukon. Wasn't enough to mess with the snowblower there...

Yay, snow!

 

[Matthew]

They have stairs on wheels you know.

And forklifts...

I was at San Jose, can't remember the airline but it was probably Southwest. At that airport you would climb down the stairs that they'd roll up to the door.

The plane that I would be getting into had just pulled up to my gate, and a forklift drove up to the left front. On the forks was a platform with a safety chain on the open side. They lifted the platform to the door, opened the door, undid the chain on that side, then pushed a passenger in a wheelchair onto the platform. Once they got her lowered down and out of the way, they rolled the stairs up for everyone else.

The point is - there is always a way. But not every airport, ramp, or situation will allow it to happen safely.

 

[maddog52]

They have stairs on wheels you know. And scissor lifts, it would take a lot less then 7 hours to empty the plane a few at a time with a scissor lift. And oh my gosh the people would be outside in the snow, just like they will be when they walk into the parking lot. A man could build a lot of shanks in 7 hours.

Did you even read the post I was responding too? That poster advocated simply opening the doors, letting the passengers out and wander across the airfield. An impractical and dangerous suggestion. Equating that scenario with outside ramp boarding or walking to the parking lot is unrealistic.

Short of pulling into a gate, using external stairs and transportation would have been a good solution. But that wasn't the suggestion I was responding to. This situation was handled poorly by JetBlue. The Captain did everything he could and exactly what he should have. Calling it inhumane for him to keep his passengers safely on the plane when there was no way available to safely get them off is silly.

 

[ClimbnSink]

No treatment is inhumane as long as a possible alternative event is worse. OK got it.

 

[maddog52]

No treatment is inhumane as long as a possible alternative event is worse. OK got it.

Who said that?

 

[n20junkie]

If my family had a medical emergency. I would blow the door and slide.

Just sayin.

 

[n20junkie]

Where was it writen that they were without power? I didn't see that anywhere. The Air Bus APU will burn 290 lbs per hour when supplying pneumatics for air conditioning and electric power. An idling engine will burn between 800 and a 1000 lbs/hour. Assuming they landed with at least 45 minutes of fuel (around 4000 pounds) they had at least 13 hours on the APU and 4 or 5 hours with an idling engine. If the APU was deferred for some reason, they could conceivably have run out of fuel during the 7 hour sit.

No company I know of and no Captain in his right mind would have willingly cut off electrics and air to his pax in this situation, even if there were some local rule about it.

Popping the slides would be a supremely bad idea. It's a virtual certainty that some one will be injured. Then once you are on the ground, you have to find your way to the terminal which could be a half mile or more away while walking through freezing temperatures, a foot of snow on the ground and snow still falling.

These situations are rarely as simple to resolve as people like to think they are.

How did the plane get there, did it drive through 12 inches of snow?

Ever hear of a jacket?

 

[maddog52]

How did the plane get there, did it drive through 12 inches of snow?

Ever hear of a jacket?

Tell that to the pax that show up in flip flops and tank tops. Ever hear of frostbite and hypothermia?

 

[maddog52]

If my family had a medical emergency. I would blow the door and slide.

Just sayin.

A true medical emergency where staying on the airplane would be more risky than leaving with no hope of immediate help might be a reason to blow the slides. But where would you be then?

 

[n20junkie]

I bet help shows up if the slides go out. Even if in the form of law enforcement.


Nope. I live in Buffalo, NY and lived in the mountains of Afghanisan for 3 years. What is frostbbite and hypothermia?