Jeppesen discontinues NavData for GX series

Challenged

Challenged

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Received an email from Jeppesen today: "We regret to announce that due to Garmin sunsetting the GX series, Jeppesen will no longer be able to offer NavData services for the GX50, GX55, GX60, GX65 and 2101 GPS units. Effective June 30, 2019, all Garmin GX NavData services will be discontinued."
 
I hate those guys.
 
When were the devices released?
I also have never heard of them....

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SoonerAviator said:
Yeah, punks not supporting non-precision IFR GPS equipment from the mid-90’s! What the hell?! I suppose now we’re just going to discontinue LORAN and NDB approaches, too!


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Whatever... so I guess non precision approaches dont exist in teh RNAV world?
 
simtech said:
Whatever... so I guess non precision approaches dont exist in teh RNAV world?
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So how long should a manufacturer be required to support an extinct product line? I’ll send my Zune into Microsoft and see if I can get a hardware update for it . . .


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SoonerAviator said:
So how long should a manufacturer be required to support an extinct product line? I’ll send my Zune into Microsoft and see if I can get a hardware update for it . . .


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Does Garmin create the NavData?
 
SoonerAviator said:
So how long should a manufacturer be required to support an extinct product line? I’ll send my Zune into Microsoft and see if I can get a hardware update for it . . .


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I mean I see what your saying but this is not about garmin supporting the GX line for navdata. Garmin hasnt supported the GX line for years, nothing new there. This is jeppesen not wanting to put out the data. Unless the GX line reads the data differently I dont see how its a problem. Keep making money on it. I promise there is more than we know out there.
 
Jepps not even the manufacturer. Their biggest problem is that their software configuration management sucks so bad, they probably lost the ability to support the older product. I went round and round with them over the lack of the GNS480/MX20 support on the Mac version of the software which is pretty pathetic.
 
It still costs money to have employees format the NavData to work with the GX platform. I suspect most of those with currently operating Apollo units aren’t keeping them updated anyway, so it’s reduced to more of a VFR GPS. Jepp just couldn’t justify dedicating the time to support a minuscule revenue stream, especially with potential liability tacked on.


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SoonerAviator said:
It still costs money to have employees format the NavData to work with the GX platform. I suspect most of those with currently operating Apollo units aren’t keeping them updated anyway, so it’s reduced to more of a VFR GPS. Jepp just couldn’t justify dedicating the time to support a minuscule revenue stream, especially with potential liability tacked on.
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This. I've seen a number of these units in customer airplanes and I have yet to see one with a current database. Could be Jepp was spending money supporting a handful of subscribers and made the simple business decision that it simply wasn't worth it for so few subscribers.
 
Time to really analyze used TSO'd (sic) GPS boxes value via depreciation vs. longevity. They ain't your grandma's KX-155's anymore.
 
SoonerAviator said:
So how long should a manufacturer be required to support an extinct product line? I’ll send my Zune into Microsoft and see if I can get a hardware update for it . . .


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I LOL’d at this. Microsoft Zune...lol I remember those things...
 
CC268 said:
I LOL’d at this. Microsoft Zune...lol I remember those things...
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Zune? That's still brand new compared to my Apple Lisa. ;)
 
You know, Garmin could really get dirty and get in the business of bribing Jeppesen (seeing as how bribery at the corporate level is actually legal in the USA... free speech says the SCOTUS... w-a-joke) to get them to discontinue database support on the legacy boxes. Thence forces the know-no-better captive audience we call the peanut gallery of this hobby to BOHICA onto the GTN touch doo da or whatever it is they spend the HELOC money they're about to lose in 2019 on. Like fish in a barrel. The Garmin sycophants of course would be none the wiser. They'd just get in line at the avionics shop and rationalize it as being money ahead somehow.

The used market has shown a great deal of resiliency in keeping orphaned hardware going. Really, it is a straight up compliment to us W-2 schmucks who keep trying to stay in this hobby by the skin of our pencil whipping teeth, flying these cannibalized 40-60+ year old AD-laden contraptions, behind 286 chipset GX-boxes et al. Fact remains, Ad hoc support of the antiquey variety has never been our limfac; the database is. The same will be true of the 480 boxes and KLNs alike.

The garmin 4xx(w) still enjoys enough market share to keep Garmin at bay, so a bribe attempt for that particular box wouldn't be feasible in present circumstances.

Condolences to those who just got their /G capability effectively ripped out of their panel. Seriously, I don't know what I'd do, especially in the eve of the ADSB mandate. Too many insults in a row for my taste. I'd probably sell, or just go tablet pirate. With friends like these....
 
Garmin is disinclined to do anything with these units. They were pretty much orphaned the day Garmin bought UPSAT. The CNS80, SL30, and MX20 fit holes in the Garmin product line at the time but I suspect Garmin's real motivation was to get the early ADSB technology UPSAT had developed.
 
SoonerAviator said:
So how long should a manufacturer be required to support an extinct product line? I’ll send my Zune into Microsoft and see if I can get a hardware update for it . . .


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Doesn't cost you $15k to replace your Zune. What's more, your Zune works great, they just don't want to sell you any more .mpg's that will play on your system.
 
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SoonerAviator said:
It still costs money to have employees format the NavData to work with the GX platform. I suspect most of those with currently operating Apollo units aren’t keeping them updated anyway, so it’s reduced to more of a VFR GPS. Jepp just couldn’t justify dedicating the time to support a minuscule revenue stream, especially with potential liability tacked on.


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How many years has this data been distributed? My guess it's been done and validated via script for years. The marginal cost is miniscule.
 
hindsight2020 said:
You know, Garmin could really get dirty and get in the business of bribing Jeppesen (seeing as how bribery at the corporate level is actually legal in the USA... free speech says the SCOTUS... w-a-joke) to get them to discontinue database support on the legacy boxes. Thence forces the know-no-better captive audience we call the peanut gallery of this hobby to BOHICA onto the GTN touch doo da or whatever it is they spend the HELOC money they're about to lose in 2019 on. Like fish in a barrel. The Garmin sycophants of course would be none the wiser. They'd just get in line at the avionics shop and rationalize it as being money ahead somehow.

The used market has shown a great deal of resiliency in keeping orphaned hardware going. Really, it is a straight up compliment to us W-2 schmucks who keep trying to stay in this hobby by the skin of our pencil whipping teeth, flying these cannibalized 40-60+ year old AD-laden contraptions, behind 286 chipset GX-boxes et al. Fact remains, Ad hoc support of the antiquey variety has never been our limfac; the database is. The same will be true of the 480 boxes and KLNs alike.

The garmin 4xx(w) still enjoys enough market share to keep Garmin at bay, so a bribe attempt for that particular box wouldn't be feasible in present circumstances.

Condolences to those who just got their /G capability effectively ripped out of their panel. Seriously, I don't know what I'd do, especially in the eve of the ADSB mandate. Too many insults in a row for my taste. I'd probably sell, or just go tablet pirate. With friends like these....
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Um no. These boxes from what I have read are VFR only. So no IFR /G.

How in the world did you jump to such a conspiracy? Jeppensen and Garmin are both technology companies. Technology changes and moves forward. Regardless of what some users want or think. The general term is technological obsolescence.

As a business, they have to make decisions on when something is no longer profitable to end it. This can be done gracefully at a larger cost and keep more people happy, or it can be suddenly and generally **** customers off but save more money.

That is really the only metric by which they should be judged.

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Chip Sylverne said:
How many years has this data been distributed? My guess it's been done and validated via script for years. The marginal cost is miniscule.
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Nope. The source data changes every year or more often, a while back I was looking at getting the data from the FAA. Because so much of the data is still freeform text and the FAA has been trying to standardize a lot, there have been many structural changes.

And these changes need to be tested...

The cost is much more than you think. Then add in sales costs, sales support, website (which gets regular updates and this requires MX money) and the list goes on.

That FAA GPS data I mentioned earlier, the business model did not pencil out. It was not the technology, it was sales, sales support and all the related infrastructure.

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tspear said:
Um no. These boxes from what I have read are VFR only. So no IFR /G.

How in the world did you jump to such a conspiracy? Jeppensen and Garmin are both technology companies. Technology changes and moves forward. Regardless of what some users want or think. The general term is technological obsolescence.

As a business, they have to make decisions on when something is no longer profitable to end it. This can be done gracefully at a larger cost and keep more people happy, or it can be suddenly and generally **** customers off but save more money.

That is really the only metric by which they should be judged.

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tspear said:
Um no. These boxes from what I have read are VFR only. So no IFR /G.

How in the world did you jump to such a conspiracy? Jeppensen and Garmin are both technology companies. Technology changes and moves forward. Regardless of what some users want or think. The general term is technological obsolescence.

As a business, they have to make decisions on when something is no longer profitable to end it. This can be done gracefully at a larger cost and keep more people happy, or it can be suddenly and generally **** customers off but save more money.

That is really the only metric by which they should be judged.

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Ummm, yes. The GX50 and 60 are IFR certified /g boxes. Until next June, anyway.
As for the rest, not buying it. There are marginal costs, sure, but the vast bulk of expenses are going to be spent anyway in support of the other, admittedly more profitable products.
 
The IM above shows the original was released 21 years ago.
 
@bnt83

Not a question of reliable sources. I just googled (ok, binged) plane GX nav boxes. The only references I could find were for VFR. But that could be a result of my limited search terms, or limited search since I do not know what I was really looking for....

@Chip Sylverne

You may think it is only marginal cost, but I have been an advisor/responsible for the bottom line in multiple companies (including helping a few turn around), and I have killed off products that most people say, but it is only marginal costs....
The costs add up, they add distractions, they take working capital to support, they take staff that has to maintain training, staff has to be trained to support... At the end of the day, a company "needs" to make a return on an investment. In this case, the hardware is over 20 years old (based on the other posts), likely has a small user base, and even fewer were willing to pay the annual fees; there likely is just no return for Jeppesen.

Tim
 
Depending on the flight manual supplement, I believe you can legally fly IFR with expired nav data in the enroute and terminal phase of flight, however you will not be able to fly approaches. The limitation is that you would have to verify the accuracy of the waypoint data as you use them. So essentially what you would now have is a VOR/DME like box that is not legal for primary approach navigation. Not toatally useless but not as useful as before.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Doesn't cost you $15k to replace your Zune. What's more, your Zune works great, they just don't want to sell you any more .mpg's that will play on your system.
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Cost is relatively irrelevant for comparison. It's a platform that has become obsolete, both due to technical capability and market demand. They can pick up a used 430w for less than $5K and have it installed for a few grand more. "Thems the breaks."
 
The Sierra I just sold had a GX50, and I had a yearly subscription for it. The new plane has a KLN90B, which is equally old. I really want to update the panel in the new plane (just received a quote yesterday), but $14,000 for a new GPS is pretty wild considering my $250 Android tablet/app has seemingly equal capability. The 90B is approach certified, so honestly I may spend my money elsewhere.
 
SoonerAviator said:
. They can pick up a used 430w for less than $5K and have it installed for a few grand more. "Thems the breaks."
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Come on, No they can't, and that detail matters. If they did, they would have already. The only box that comes close to what you're proposing is the non waas gns, also non repairable by g mart. Maybe a 400w as the only waas source that would fall in that price category. And by a "few grand more" you mean double the cost, as it takes at least 30 hours of labor to initial install these things. Lets not minimize the reason people fly around gx and kln's in the first place.

Its an incredibly hostile hobby on the economic front, and it doesn't need to be. The GPS navigator pricing structure is out to lunch.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Come on, No they can't, and that detail matters. If they did, they would have already. The only box that comes close to what you're proposing is the non waas gns, also non repairable by g mart. Maybe a 400w as the only waas source that would fall in that price category. And by a "few grand more" you mean double the cost, as it takes at least 30 hours of labor to initial install these things. Lets not minimize the reason people fly around gx and kln's in the first place.

Its an incredibly hostile hobby on the economic front, and it doesn't need to be. The GPS navigator pricing structure is out to lunch.
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Prior to posting that, I went to a few places to see used avionics and saw several GNS-430 units, some with installation hardware, for $5K. So, there may be some room in there to quibble, but it's what I found. As for installation cost, I suppose that's up to the shop you use, but I have typically seen $3K used as a general figure which falls in line with "a few grand more". As with any avionics installation, there are a lot of variables related to existing equipment that could affect install price. YMMV

Edit: adjusted model to non-WAAS
 
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Challenged said:
The Sierra I just sold had a GX50, and I had a yearly subscription for it. The new plane has a KLN90B, which is equally old. I really want to update the panel in the new plane (just received a quote yesterday), but $14,000 for a new GPS is pretty wild considering my $250 Android tablet/app has seemingly equal capability. The 90B is approach certified, so honestly I may spend my money elsewhere.
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That Android is no where near as accurate. It has to deal with two dimensions only, and uses WiFi signals to supplement known positions. The result, no where near as accurate. Take that Android out on a lake, and watch it struggle, take it in the air and it will struggle even more.

Also, I have had many Android and iOS software based failures over the years. I have yet to see a software failure in the GNS. That reliability comes with a cost, and it is spread over only a 100K units, not millions like a phone is.

hindsight2020 said:
Its an incredibly hostile hobby on the economic front, and it doesn't need to be. The GPS navigator pricing structure is out to lunch.
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Yes and no. I wish it was cheaper, and I wish the FAA was willing to accept alternate concepts and ideas to make it cheaper. e.g. apply the concept for IT of RAID. Which stands for Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks. When this came about, server grade disk drives were supper expensive. However, RAID changed it, you could instead of spending 10K on a server grade disk with a MTBF (mean time between failure) of one in a billion, you could by two disks for $1K each that only had a MTBF of one in a million. The chance of both disks failing together was actually lower than the single server grade disk at five times the price.
For GPS, the equivalent would be having three "civilian" nav systems in the plane, when any one disagrees with the other two, it is dropped out...

Tim
 
SoonerAviator said:
Prior to posting that, I went to a few places to see used avionics and saw several 430w units, some with installation hardware, for $5K. So, there may be some room in there to quibble, but it's what I found. As for installation cost, I suppose that's up to the shop you use, but I have typically seen $3K used as a general figure which falls in line with "a few grand more". As with any avionics installation, there are a lot of variables related to existing equipment that could affect install price. YMMV
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I call BS. I've been tracking that market and very rarely do you see anything under $6,500 with hardware. Let's see where you got your comparables. last quote I got was for $11k installed, and I have approved nav heads. As for the 400W, sure, the unit is $3,500, but add onto that an annunciator and switching relays and you're back up to $6K
 
I've looked around last night for a used 430w. The going price seems to be about $7k. But then you need the indicator for around $1500. So without labor on a dated non Garmin repairable unit you are already at $8500..labor I have no clue..say 15 hours to install at $100/hr (that's the low end I'm sure) and now you have a used dated $10k unit..no thanks.

I do agree that Garmin brought this on to move people to their newer systems. I hate Garmin and always have. I have 7 months left of approach capabilities. After that no sure how I'll approach this.

I know it can still be used IFR if data is verified. But does that not count on the approach side of things? I know one change and it's done but..
 
SoonerAviator said:
Prior to posting that, I went to a few places to see used avionics and saw several 430w units, some with installation hardware, for $5K. So, there may be some room in there to quibble, but it's what I found. As for installation cost, I suppose that's up to the shop you use, but I have typically seen $3K used as a general figure which falls in line with "a few grand more". As with any avionics installation, there are a lot of variables related to existing equipment that could affect install price. YMMV
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Please provide a link to a used 430W for under $5k. It'll be sold instantly. The going price for a 430W is, on average, around $6500.
 
simtech said:
I've looked around last night for a used 430w. The going price seems to be about $7k. But then you need the indicator for around $1500. So without labor on a dated non Garmin repairable unit you are already at $8500..labor I have no clue..say 15 hours to install at $100/hr (that's the low end I'm sure) and now you have a used dated $10k unit..no thanks.

I do agree that Garmin brought this on to move people to their newer systems. I hate Garmin and always have. I have 7 months left of approach capabilities. After that no sure how I'll approach this.

I know it can still be used IFR if data is verified. But does that not count on the approach side of things? I know one change and it's done but..
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You also need a remote annunciator for the 430W, so add another $5-800.
 
For what's it's worth, I just received a quote to install a 480 a couple of days ago, and it was $4,000, I imagine a 430 would be about the same.
 
bradg33 said:
You also need a remote annunciator for the 430W, so add another $5-800.
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You're telling me the GI-106 doesn't have annunciators on it?

Sigh..of course not. Yet my cheap mid continent MD-40 does. ..
 
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