Its fun to have any hope of finding a hangar grated like cheese.

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by MarkH, Feb 14, 2021.

  1. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I have noticed that the ratio in the expense between a private party putting up a hangar and the city doing it is about 3x.
    In a place with hangar demand, leasing ground and putting up hangars seems to be a reasonable business concept. We used to rent from a private landlord until the city stole the hangars at the 30 year mark.
     
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  2. Dana

    Dana Pattern Altitude

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    Nearly 20,000 airports in the US. Of those, about 5000 are open to the public.

    I fly my plane regularly when it's warm enough, but with an open cockpit 40°F is my lower limit, so I don't often shovel out my hangar door.
     
  3. Ed Haywood

    Ed Haywood Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I sympathize with those who can't find a hanger. I just finished a long, frustrating search myself. But let's not get too indignant about it. You picked where to live. You made that choice based on a long list of pros and cons, such as job, housing, family, schools, recreation, etc. I'm guessing you live in a built-up area where land is in demand and smaller public airfields are vanishing or gone. That's a bummer, but don't blame someone else because you did not put aviation higher up on your life design. Move to a rural area and you'll find tons of little grass strips with owners receptive to adding a long term tenant to help pay for mowing. If you don't want to move, that's cool, I don't want to live in Pigeon Toe Arkansas either; but don't complain that you can't graze your cows or park your airplane in downtown NYC. ;)
     
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  4. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    Ah, there we go. I knew that eventually we'd hear from the "If only you'd put your hobby ahead of everything else in your life from the beginning, you wouldn't have this problem" contingent. Gee, thanks for that. I'll go back in time and retroactively rearrange my entire life around the possibility that some day I might own an airplane.

    Oh -wait. Hanger. Never mind. I found those, right there in the closet next to the ties and slacks, no lifestyle changes needed.
     
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  5. Cykoguy

    Cykoguy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    As an EAA chapter president I have been trying to figure out a place to get a hangar for the chapter. We are on the waiting list at CID but that is not ideal for security reasons...that is unless we could get whole or partial of a larger hangar with easier "through the fence" access but that seems to be held up by again a waiting list on some and some lease agreements between CID and Signature that is the primary lessor.

    Have also tried C17 (Marion) but again waitlist/lack availability and some excuse about land use arrangements not allowing a long term lease deal.

    This thread did give me the motivation to reach back out and see if anything has changed at least.
     
  6. Southpaw

    Southpaw Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I was lucky , had T hanger space rented the day my C172 arrived .
    It's in the original 10 T hanger building constructed at the same time the Airport was relocated in 1948.
    In digging through some boxes of stuff my dad left behind , I found a Montana Aeronautical Map from 1948.
    I had it mounted and will be hung in the office at KSBX .

    The local airport has one older 4 stall with electric bifold doors , A 6 stall newer larger T with electric bifold doors ,and 2 other larger Hangers .
    A new one which hangers a Cessna Citation 680 , the other has a couple 182's and a 310 plus A T bird .

    The old T hangers where my 172 is has lots of Junk rotting in its stalls. A Blanca with a cracked spar , a older 182 that hasn't left the stall for several years , A couple PA 28's that get flown once a year.
    And couple with former AC owners junk.
    One vacant of the 10. But if some one wanted to rent a stall that is full of junk I'm sure they would be asked to clean them out . They do pay the rent. It's less expensive then the one stall storage units in town.
     
  7. bkspero

    bkspero Line Up and Wait

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    Shouldn't the next thing that those airports with long hangar waiting lists do is raise hangar rents until demand and supply are in balance? Then we would find out if there really is enough demand to support new hangar construction at a rental rate that will pay for the construction and maintenance costs.
     
  8. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Makes total sense. Then the GA community on the airport will march on the airport manager claiming the airport is anti-GA. You should see the threats we receive when hangar rent is raised $5.

    One thing to note, it is not just the cost of the building that goes into it. A 10 bank of T-hangars, when built by the government and subject to the standard government markups, is around $1 million. However there is also a lot of site work, utilities, and paving that has to go into it as well. My airport has been fortunate to be making progress on that, but that extra work also adds up to $1 million, figure $2 million total cost to add 10 T-hangars to the airport. The going rate at our airport and in our region is around $150 a month.

    As for bonding to build, elected officials and the general public think of aviation as being just another country club for the rich and famous. They don't support borrowing and spending lots of money to subsidize an increasingly small minority's hobby. Our $2 million project has taken many years and multiple grants to get this far, and we aren't done yet.

    The thing with grants is they are very targeted, come with a lot of stings attached, and there usually isn't enough money to go around. While to an outsider it seems ridiculous that I could get $5 million for a terminal building, but can't get a penny to spend on hangars, it is 100% the truth. Believe me the airport management community has fought the restrictions for years, to allow us to use grants on revenue producing items to help airports create new revenue streams and become more self sufficient. Those requests have never even gotten off the ground.
     
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  9. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    To add to my post,

    Airports are pretty unique in administration. We are usually a government agency of some sort. We have to abide by government rules and standards. At the same time we are expected to operate like a business. Its very difficult balancing the two totally separate philosophies, as they often contradict themselves.
     
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  10. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    KBED took a different approach (no pun)... it imposed a fee for being on the waiting list.
     
  11. jrcox19

    jrcox19 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I lived about a mile from C17 until a few years ago. Last time I was up there (last fall - after the derecho) there were multiple open hangars supposedly. Obviously I never inquired further, but when I lived up there it seemed like there were almost always a few hangars available.
     
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  12. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    At FDK.....they require a $500 deposit for each waiting list. There were three waiting lists....now two, since they tore down a set of older hangars.
     
  13. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    I don't remember which airport did it, but I do remember reading an article where an airport put open hangars on eBay and highest bidder got the hangar. Interesting concept.
     
  14. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    One of the local private airports does that (KVKX).
     
  15. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    So essentially, you are supporting a good ole boy network protecting those that managed to already obtain a hangar.
     
  16. charheep

    charheep Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    My observations from renting from 2 airports. One definitely had non-aviation businesses operating out of them. I saw lots of dirt bikes and quads being repaired on nice weather days and the open hangar door. Another had car lifts and classic Mustangs and Camaros in different stages of repair in another. This airport had yearly inspections, so how it was allowed is beyond me. When I rented, I had to the choice to be present or not, but not the option to opt-out. I dont know if the owners could "skip" the inspections or not though. Rents here were around 350 to 500 for a 1100ft2 hangar with heat. And some available to purchase.

    The other is a larger airport, and state they WILL go into the hangars to check fire extinguishers status and see if you have anything prohibited. The airport is too spread out to see if people are just storing planes or not. Rents are 450 for a 1100ft2 unheated and 650 for heated. No option to buy that I can see. This airport just tore down a section of hangars and I dont see any plans for them to replace them.
     
  17. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Not exactly, just pointing out its a double edged sword. If we raise rates to pay for new hangars, we hate GA. If we don't build hangars because we don't raise rates, we hate GA. There is no way to win.
     
  18. a572mike

    a572mike Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You may want to look at Table O-3 of the AIP Handbook (FAA Order 5100.38D). It explains how Non-Primary Entitlements CAN be used for revenue generating projects.

    I'm in the airport consulting business and over the years I've done several hangar projects and fuel system projects that were indeed funded under AIP.
     
  19. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Non-primary entitlements don't add up to much $ wise. It would take several years to accumulate enough of those funds to do any significant size project, and usually those funds go towards pavement or other required infrastructure maintenance.

    Not saying it can't be done, but those types of projects are rare.
     
  20. a572mike

    a572mike Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Several of these projects were funded by multiple sources, as 4 years of NPE's is only $600,000 (which isn't enough).

    The hangar that I was recently in when I was living in Minnesota was funded by a combination of Non-Primary Entitlements, a state grant, a state hangar loan, and some local sources I do believe. That project was about $1.1 million for an 8 unit Erect-a-tube building with bi-fold doors and all of the associated new taxilanes. (wasn't one of my projects so I don't know all of the nitty gritty details, I was just happy to be able to take advantage of the $120/month rent)
     
  21. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

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    To make things worse, when you raise hangar rates, it is the actively flying owners who actually feel the pinch. Rate changes are very inelastic for the inactive pilots who are storing their rotting planes and other associated junk in their hangars. They just continue to pay whatever it takes within a very large range of rental rates that is wider than what active pilots will tolerate. They may whine and complain, but they ultimately pay instead of leave. It is very difficult to get the inactive owners to vacate. While that is OK for rental income, it's very bad for every other aspect of airport business. Nonflying planes don't buy fuel, and they don't use the local maintenance services. It seems like the only way we can free up a hangar from an inactive owner is when they die.
     
  22. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The solution is for an airport to write the hangar leases in a way that requires exclusive aeronautical use and to then enforce those leases.

    (says the man who currently only has a hangar-car and a compressor in the metal box he rents from the airport......)
     
  23. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    Any airport that receives federal grants is already required to. Note the FAA did ease their stance on the matter slightly. The previous wording was no non-aeronautical use permitted. That would mean, technically, even storing a bicycle in your hangar with your airplane would be a violation.

    The latest FAA guidance allows for non-aeronautical storage, such that it does not impede the aeronautical use, or if the space is not currently required for aeronautical use but could provide financial support to the airport, but must vacate if the need for aeronautical use arises. This does allow hangar renters/owners to keep their car or something in the hangar with the airplane as long as the airplane can still be used. It also allows airports with no waiting list for hangars to rent vacate hangars for non-aeronautical purposes to get them rented, but they if someone with a plane needs space they are supposed to give the non-av guy the boot.
     
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  24. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My car is in the hangar so I can use it when I fly into town for work. Its part of my aeronautical use. (the airport also doesn't have a waiting list, so I consider my payment on a hangar that is most of the time empty a donation to the operating fund)

    And I am glad they saw the light and made their end of the rules reasonable. Now it is up to the airports to revise the leases accordingly and to make sure that the hangars are used in accordance with grant assurances. That's where things are currently lacking.

    I do have to say that after the city stole the hangars, they brought down the hammer, started inspecting and opened up some hangars for aeronautical use. The private owner was very hands-off and the only qualification to be a renter was that your check had to clear. The old land-lease with the city may not have had that 'subjugation' clause in it that would allow a hangar landlord to enforce the aeronautical use requirements.
     
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  25. kyleb

    kyleb Final Approach

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    No. Implement a refundable deposit of a month or three of rent to hold your place on the hangar list. That would quickly separate the wheat from the chaff. No need to charge the GA owners out of existence.

    Also, enforce FAA guidance on what is allowed in hangars. They MUST be for aviation use.
     
  26. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    One of the worst things that ever happened to this country was the notion of “one voice, one vote”.
     
  27. Cykoguy

    Cykoguy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    We were offered the open ones on the backside but due to what we would be storing there that wasn't doable.
     
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