It was scary today

Morne said:
Respectfully, your post is condescending.

Continuing to flame the OP is not helpful. NOT because it might anger him or help him see the error of his ways, but rather because you are ACTIVELY DISCOURAGING other folks from admitting to scary situations that we could all learn from.

Shutting down a pipeline of vital information is dangerous. How many pilots who might have learned from the dozens of lessons your attitude kept secret will have to die? Free flowing information is life. Suppress it, directly or indirectly, at everyone's peril.

The OP might be anti-authority. That said, YOU are NOT the authority. That is, unless you are the Chief muckity-muck at the FAA, in which case I shall begin grovelling for forgiveness at your earliest convenience.
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You did notice the post I addressed was not the OP? Anyway, my comment was tongue in cheek. My apology it didn't come across that way. Stand down, crisis averted.
 
Richard said:
You did notice the post I addressed was not the OP?
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Right, it was directed to the guy who rightly pointed out that bringing embarassing/harrowing tales to light is discouraged. He was making a fine point that a lot of folks here can't seem to hear over the trumpets of self-righteousness.

I realize that everyone on here, except the OP and I, is an ATP with 200,000 hours in 17 different types. You've seen it all and done it all better than low time private pilots, High-Performance Endorsed or not, could ever hope to achieve before your self-fulfilling prophecy about the death of GA comes true. Great job, Ace.

There - you wanted tongue in cheek?
 
Was Richard referring to the OP, or the complainer who said he'd never post? ;) ;) ;)
 
N801BH said:
I have done that when the tower radio failed..... I bet you remember that trick from now on.:yesnod::yesnod::idea: Ya just gotta love Lightspeeds and cellphones..:)
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Just make sure you pair them up beforehand, and test it from time to time! I pick up clearances from the local clearance delivery phone number at my uncontrolled field, or call Flight Service for one last check of TFRs / weather.
 
bbchien said:
Try 277-5602. Usually the published one rings at the facility manager's secretary, unstaffed on weekends, but an adjacent number rings in the cab.
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Good idea. Just called what I thought was KAFW's tower, got the recorded line. One of the "extensions" they mentioned to "reach a controller for an operational issue on a recorded line" told me what to change the last four digits to. Dialed that number directly and got the cab. Programmed in my phone now, already paired to my LightSpeed headset via bluetooth.
 
People "testing" and actually dialing the cabs repeatedly is a sure way to get the number changed. Easier to leave a voice mail for the tower manager and put the number in the phone WITHOUT dialing it unless needed. :)
 
gprellwitz said:
If you were able to hear yourself, it probably wasn't a directional mike issue. You could have had whomever was sitting in the copilot seat try to make a call, or swap headsets with them. Also, pulling out your headset and plugging it in a few times may help correct a dirty connection. All of which take time, of course. And, as we've already established, you were fixated. That right there is the biggest red flag. It's a lot easier to say than to do, but as I think you now realize you needed to pause a moment and look at the whole picture, letting the fixation wash away. You weren't out of options, but you were close to being out of options that were being actively considered.
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Ah, the whole "Aviation Decision Making Process" (ADM)... this would be a good time for the OP to review this. It discusses the danger of fixation, getting into a reactionary mode, versus stopping, deliberately evaluating what is happening, options, outcomes, then selecting and doing one of those. Here's a link to the FAA PDF of the ADM chapter.
 
What? There's whole PUBLICATIONS on this topic? ;)

The phone books are here! The phone books are here! I am somebody! I am somebody!

:lol:
 
onwards said:
By the way, for other VFR pilots hoping for lessons from this thread. I mentioned a couple telltale signs that will in the future clue me in (I went and read about weather stuff after this event, which clarified a couple things).

First, what i'm used to in these "SVFR situations" is completely stable air with excellent visibility, usually 10 miles or more.
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Sorry, but if it was "SVFR" isn't 10 mile visibility.

Special VFR (SVFR) operations in weather conditions less than VFR minima
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Sec. 91.155 Basic VFR weather minimums.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and Sec. 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft under VFR when the flight visibility is less, or at a distance from clouds that is less, than that prescribed for the corresponding altitude and class of airspace in the following table:


Class B 3 sm clear of clouds Class C 3 sm 500 ft below
1,000 ft above
2,000 ft horizontal Class D 3 sm 500 ft below
1,000 ft above
2,000 ft horizontal Class E
Less than 10,000 ft MSL 3 sm 500 ft below
1,000 ft above
2,000 ft horizontal Class E
At or above 10,000 ft MSL 5 sm 1,000ft below
1,000 ft above
1 sm horizontal
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If it was 10 mile vis you wouldn't have been SFVR....
 
NoHeat said:
Note to self:

Post only about pleasant trips on sunny days when all equipment works well.

If anything goes wrong, do not post about it. Nobody else will learn from it anyway, and they'll just descend upon you like a pack of wolves.
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Not true.

Here are two of my posts about when things went very wrong. Notice no pack of wolves. There were questions, "Did you think of this? What about that" which is always a good challenge.
 
dmccormack said:
An 800 foot ceiling means you better be flying over water or completely uninhabited land otherwise you're breaking other rules as well.

By the way -- I fly low and slow all the time, but am careful where.
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Yup. Getting into CCR from the northwest is over water, until you get to the point where you are on base or final (depending on the runway), where this no longer matters.

I actually don't fly low and slow most of the time; the only time I do is pretty much going out or coming in to my home base under SVFR.
 
dmccormack said:
An 800 foot ceiling means you better be flying over water or completely uninhabited land otherwise you're breaking other rules as well.

By the way -- I fly low and slow all the time, but am careful where.
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You can break minimum altitudes as deemed necessary by the PIC, I feel like that goes without saying.
 
TMetzinger said:
Please go talk to a local authority, like your CFII, and tell him that some boneheaded CFI in the Mid-Atlantic thought you were stupid to fly towards weather (800' Broken) that would require special VFR with your family on board. That's the gist of my criticism to you. And then take what he tells you to heart.
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So... I just spoke to my IFR instructor (who has also heard about the flight already because apparently my email got circled around a bit).

As expected, he didn't take particular exception to my decision to ask for SVFR to get in ("way of life"). He commended me for a couple of things, in particular my decision to pull carb heat even though I was circling around at 20 inches which is well in the green, because this plane is very susceptible to icing and in those conditions there was high potential for it occurring. I didn't even realize how high until i spoke to him, so I'm really glad I chose to do that. His words are "if you hadn't, you might well have had ice build up and drop you into the straight before you had a chance to do anything about it".

He berated me (also as expected) for fixating on the radios and not diverting to Napa when I still could. Said he hopes that was a good lesson for the future.

The plane is still in the avionics shop. There is something going on but they are not sure what yet, but at least I'm not crazy.
 
Inverted said:
You can break minimum altitudes as deemed necessary by the PIC, I feel like that goes without saying.
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Sure, as long as you're willing to deal with potential consequences.

I make a point of taking all students up in marginal VFR conditions (and I file just in case).

It's always a huge eye-opener, and the reaction is the same: "I'll never try this without an instrument rating!"
 
denverpilot said:
People "testing" and actually dialing the cabs repeatedly is a sure way to get the number changed. Easier to leave a voice mail for the tower manager and put the number in the phone WITHOUT dialing it unless needed. :)
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Lacking a legitmate reason to call, I agree.
 
dmccormack said:
Sure, as long as you're willing to deal with potential consequences.

I make a point of taking all students up in marginal VFR conditions (and I file just in case).

It's always a huge eye-opener, and the reaction is the same: "I'll never try this without an instrument rating!"
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We have to deal with potential consequences with regard to flying everyday.

The point of taking a student into marginal conditions is not to scare them and to make them get their instrument ticket, it should be to show them the conditions and teach them how to react like a pilot should. Unplanned things happen which is the EXACT case of this thread. Teaching a pilot to ALWAYS have an option should be job one, not scare them to freak out when they encounter MVFR.
 
Inverted said:
We have to deal with potential consequences with regard to flying everyday.

The point of taking a student into marginal conditions is not to scare them and to make them get their instrument ticket, it should be to show them the conditions and teach them how to react like a pilot should. Unplanned things happen which is the EXACT case of this thread. Teaching a pilot to ALWAYS have an option should be job one, not scare them to freak out when they encounter MVFR.
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No kidding. Read my more complete post on taking students into marginal conditions.

But intentionality launching into marginal conditions should scare a VFR pilot or any pilot in a VFR-only airplane.

We have too many VFR into IMC accidents to claim we're doing it right. Maybe we haven't scared them enough?

My primary CFI too me up in actual and my reaction was, "This is so cool!" followed by "Wow, will I ever be able to do this??" I stayed out of clouds until I was qualified. I'm still around to post.
 
Brings to mind the old description of flying that says it is hours of shear boredom, punctuated by seconds of stark terror.

Glad all is well!

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
Brings to mind the old description of flying that says it is hours of shear boredom, punctuated by seconds of stark terror.

Glad all is well!

Doc
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Thanks Doc :) I am going to remember this one... never heard it before. Very apt.
 
what airspace was takeoff? i'm confused about the decision to go in an 800' ceiling

btw - not being judgmental, these stories are great to learn from - just wondering if it was class D where its 1000.

ok nevermind - saw that it was upon approach... congrats on successful landing!
 
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Good job landing safely and thanks for posting the thread.

My unrequested $0.02

I see a whole ton of posts on this board about the relentlessness of the FAA is and how they are restrictive, invasive, unfair, bloated, over reaching, etc. the VFR mins are (in my opinion) exactly the opposite, and that being said, just on the other side of those mins is IMC. My personal mins are well above the FAA's and I intend to keep it that way. My general rule of thumb since I am also in the ever changing WX of the mid-Atlantic. If WX is at my mins, and I and am toying with the idea to fly anyway- I go grab a beer, thus absolutely preventing me from even considering flying in at least the next 8 hours (realistically just eliminating the whole day) If I were ever to consider departing a flight in which I had a better than 2% chance of needing a SVFR clearance to land, I would not take off. YMMV
 
Mattl said:
My personal mins are well above the FAA's and I intend to keep it that way. My general rule of thumb since I am also in the ever changing WX of the mid-Atlantic. If WX is at my mins, and I and am toying with the idea to fly anyway- I go grab a beer, thus absolutely preventing me from even considering flying in at least the next 8 hours (realistically just eliminating the whole day) If I were ever to consider departing a flight in which I had a better than 2% chance of needing a SVFR clearance to land, I would not take off. YMMV
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Excellent approach, certainly.

We all have different ideas around risk assessment (using a sub-conscious internal model) that we utilize on many everyday decisions, with widely differing outcomes - not in terms of what happens, but in terms of how they manifest themselves in our behaviors, choices, and actions.

Obviously, your internal model and mine result in a different approach to this particular decision. I don't think it makes either of us more "right" or "wrong" in the greater context of our respective lives. For example, I have an extreme aversion to alcohol, and I see consuming it as a far more risky behavior than most people I know, so it is likely that my internal model will lead me to just not drink that beer regardless of whether I am supposed to fly today, tomorrow, or next week. I was just picking on the one thing you expressed, but this really does impact all of our everyday lives in many ways of we are usually quite unaware.
 
Mattl said:
Good job landing safely and thanks for posting the thread.

I go grab a beer, thus absolutely preventing me from even considering flying in at least the next 8 hours (realistically just eliminating the whole day) If I were ever to consider departing a flight in which I had a better than 2% chance of needing a SVFR clearance to land, I would not take off. YMMV
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Stop making excuses to start drinking at 0900 :p
 
dell30rb said:
Stop making excuses to start drinking at 0900 :p
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Busted!!! Why not start your day off cloudy, Ahh, I mean in the clouds!

Onwards- I agree with you, that we are both right in our personal standards/limits. If I may (and I will since this is the Internet) I'm curious if your private instructor was a) instrument rated, and b) your instruction was in a instrument rated plane- and if so, should things have gotten worse, that option to request and legally receive a IFR clearance to land was his/her "plan b". (IIRC you can get a commercial with out a IR, don't know if you can get a CFI with out it.)

This train of thought above brings up another concern (again, the IR for CFI is a unknown to me and I don't feel like looking it up on the iPhone) but if this wasn't the case, that the instructor was not IR rated, what was the "plan B" with a "student" onboard if things got even worse?


If I was instrument rated, and flying a IFR certified plane, I'd be very comfy flying in to a "known" svfr area as VFR flight. However I'm not- so that factors in to my flight planning.

-Matt
 
In the US, CFIs (except for sport pilot instructors) must hold an instrument rating. They don't have to be current/proficient unless they're acting as PIC under IFR.
 
TMetzinger said:
In the US, CFIs (except for sport pilot instructors) must hold an instrument rating. They don't have to be current/proficient unless they're acting as PIC under IFR.
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Thanks!
 
Well, we have a (nother) Cirrus vfr rated pilot that thought he could scud run because he got away with it all the times before, but htis time he bought the farm...
As usual, he took innocent trusting folks with him... (not a crime limited to just Cirrus pilots)

denny-o
 
TMetzinger said:
In the US, CFIs (except for sport pilot instructors) must hold an instrument rating. They don't have to be current/proficient unless they're acting as PIC under IFR.
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Really? I had no idea that was the case. Learn something new everyday.
 
Mattl said:
If I may (and I will since this is the Internet) I'm curious if your private instructor was a) instrument rated, and b) your instruction was in a instrument rated plane
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Yes to both. My first private instructor was a CFII (he also had every other rating under the sun), and my second (don't ask) was a CFII with over 20,000 hours of commercial under his belt. The second guy was the one who stuck me in a cloud at night without warning, then crossed his hands, leaned back, looked at me while chewing on his toothpick, and said "well, watcha gonna do?". That was the most frightening moment of my training, and also the most satisfying two minutes later when I emerged right back out from that cloud while having lost only 50 ft of altitude and being 175 degrees back from the vector whence I entered.

My current IFR instructor is, of course, a CFII as well, although he is the least experienced (hour-wise) of my instructors to date. However, he is also the commander of the local civil air patrol with some very valuable experience and insights, is a super cool guy to boot.
 
TMetzinger said:
In the US, CFIs (except for sport pilot instructors) must hold an instrument rating. They don't have to be current/proficient unless they're acting as PIC under IFR.
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The poster is probably confused by te CFI, CFII difference. The CFI- Instrument Airplane rating consist of a second written, oral, and flight exam on all the instrument PTS tasks from the right seat.

It's a bit confusing since a CFI can provide the instrument training required for the Private Pilot but the CFI-I is required to provide and log instrument training towards the Instrument Rating.
 
dmccormack said:
The poster is probably confused by te CFI, CFII difference. The CFI- Instrument Airplane rating consist of a second written, oral, and flight exam on all the instrument PTS tasks from the right seat.

It's a bit confusing since a CFI can provide the instrument training required for the Private Pilot but the CFI-I is required to provide and log instrument training towards the Instrument Rating.
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Actually I wasn't confused about that, I know that you can get a commercial with out a IR, but it's pretty limited. And I knew CFI and CFII are different requirements beyond having a IR, just wasn't sure if it was a requirement for CFI. Thanks again for the clarification.

And for the OP - I think you missed the point that I was going after.
 
This has probably been mentioned in the thread (I only read the first page)...

You do not need functional radios at all to get your family safely on the ground. Put 7600 in the transponder and go land. Don't just circle as weather gets even worse. Just go land!!
 
onwards said:
He berated me (also as expected) for fixating on the radios and not diverting to Napa when I still could. Said he hopes that was a good lesson for the future.
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Seems that your mentor and I are pretty much in agreement. There are definitely circumstances where SVFR can be a safe tool for a VFR pilot (hint: 500 broken with 1 mile vis isn't one of those) and a VFR pilot using SVFR to fly into an airport under an 800 ft ceiling with 6+ sm visibility doesn't give me any heartburn as long as obstacles and congested areas aren't a factor. It was pretty clear to me that unrecognized "fixation" was the real problem on your flight. The sucky part is that there's no known 100% fix for fixation. By it's very nature a fixation event comes with blinders that make it unlikely the victim can easily recognize that it's occurring. I do believe that preparation that includes a deliberate survey of one's options when unusual situations may or do occur can go a long way to breaking you out of the trap before things get too serious. So if I were you, my take away from this experience wouldn't be to avoid any flight that might involve "benign" SVFR as a non IR pilot, but rather to try to make a habit of periodically evaluating your situation WRT available options with a shortening of the interval whenever anything occurs that might affect those options (e.g. the SVFR conditions as well as the comm problem). IOW when something negative happens, make a deliberate effort to evaluate how that something could affect the safe outcome of your flight rather than just attempting to resolve the immediate issue.

The plane is still in the avionics shop. There is something going on but they are not sure what yet, but at least I'm not crazy.
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Evidence that something's wrong with the airplane's avionics, doesn't by itself prove that you're not crazy.:D
 
gismo said:
Evidence that something's wrong with the airplane's avionics, doesn't by itself prove that you're not crazy.:D
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LOL. I have been revealed.

Full agreement with the rest of your post, too.
 
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