IT Advice needed - NA

Skip Miller

Final Approach
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Skip Miller
I need some advice about setting up a small network for a business that my wife and her friend will be starting late this summer. I will not be directly involved with this business as an employee but since my wife will be a principal, and as my wife and her friend both have little IT skill beyond knowing where the BRS is and how to do a three-finger salute, I am the de facto IT Consultant and probably the whole IT Department as well.

I can’t say exactly what the business is, as my wife’s current employer doesn’t yet know that she is leaving. Same with the other lady in the business. They are intermediaries in that the end product is a series of educational seminars provided to a highly educated group of people, that is paid for by a different company. Their job is to figure out what will sell, pitch the idea to the large company, and upon getting approval and a budget, hiring a “star power” faculty, renting a hall, advertising the seminar, paying all the bills, and pocketing the surplus.

My wife and her friend are good at this. They have been doing this for their existing employers for years. The business swings on what they know, who they know, and their reputation.

OK, to the IT requirements: I need to design a PC-Windows based network for their office. We should plan on a Phase I system until the revenue stream gets established (could be a year), and then the business could afford a more sophisticated Phase II system. Let’s concentrate on Phase I, but let’s not build a system that must be totally scrapped when Phase II comes along. Phase I is not looking to be as cheap as possible, but expense is a consideration. “Fast. Cheap. Reliable. Pick any two.” Yes, I know that! Let’s not say “cheap”, let’s say cost effective. Phase I should be very cost effective. It must be safe and reliable.

Phase I requires a bare minimum of 3 workstations although even in Phase I, I think planning for 5 is better. The application software necessary is Microsoft Office (primarily Word, Excel, and Powerpoint) and something like Quickbooks. The network will be used for internet connectivity to the workstations and file sharing. The files can be large: 20 meg Powerpoint files are common and maybe up to 50 megs. These files also need to be sent over the internet.

A backup system is required. File and printer sharing among network members is required. Virus protection is a must. There is no need for access to the network from a remote location by laptop in Phase I.

OK, design the network! Should this be peer-to-peer or server based? Why? What network software is required, or will the networking capability of XP suffice? Tape backup, removable HD backup? What virus software? Etc. etc. etc. Remember, chea… umm cost effective. We have to have a system that is reliable and safe, but bells and whistles are not necessary.

With huge thanks in advance.

-Skip
 
Three to five Dell Optiplex GX620 workstations with WinXP Pro (NOT Home) with 19" screens for $900 each. Each will have 1Gb RAM, just below top end processor and 80Gb hard drive. Make one of them has a larger hard drive and it becomes your filesever in a peer-to-peer network. Add Office bundle for a few hundred more to each computer.

One network gateway with four port switch, firewall, and wireless = $100. Add a second 8 port switch for another $80 if required (beyond the three workstations plus the printer).

One HP LaserJet 1022n network laser printer = $200. Network capable, decent speed, not reliant on any particular computer since it plugs into the network directly. Easy to set up. If you need color, select a nice inkjet color or go straight to a color laser printer for less than $500 from Dell.

Set up file and print sharing on all computers. Share the big drive and map the drive from the other workstations. Store your data there. Add a DVD-RW to the "fileserver" for easy backups (cheaper and easier than tapes and a lot less to manage).

Get a cable/dsl connection and just use Yahoo addresses right now. Or get a domain and farm out the e-mail to the ISP for a few bucks a month. Costs vary.

Total cost is less than $4,000 and you're positioned as well as any larger client/server network. Add a server later, move the files, and point the workstations at the server and you're done for your next move.
 
Thanks, Brian, for the prompt response. And for the info! I will pursue this as well as digging into other suggestions I receive and get back to the assembled multitude for a last look at the configuration before we put pen to checkbook.

-Skip
 
Brian Austin said:
Three to five Dell Optiplex GX620 workstations with WinXP Pro (NOT Home) with 19" screens for $900 each. Each will have 1Gb RAM, just below top end processor and 80Gb hard drive. Make one of them has a larger hard drive and it becomes your filesever in a peer-to-peer network. Add Office bundle for a few hundred more to each computer.

One network gateway with four port switch, firewall, and wireless = $100. Add a second 8 port switch for another $80 if required (beyond the three workstations plus the printer).

One HP LaserJet 1022n network laser printer = $200. Network capable, decent speed, not reliant on any particular computer since it plugs into the network directly. Easy to set up. If you need color, select a nice inkjet color or go straight to a color laser printer for less than $500 from Dell.

Set up file and print sharing on all computers. Share the big drive and map the drive from the other workstations. Store your data there. Add a DVD-RW to the "fileserver" for easy backups (cheaper and easier than tapes and a lot less to manage).

Get a cable/dsl connection and just use Yahoo addresses right now. Or get a domain and farm out the e-mail to the ISP for a few bucks a month. Costs vary.

Total cost is less than $4,000 and you're positioned as well as any larger client/server network. Add a server later, move the files, and point the workstations at the server and you're done for your next move.

Only thing I would add to Brian's excellent advice - A number of the Workgroup switches/routers come with a built in printserver. Saves having to leave a PC on to manage a print queue and so on. The printer hooks to the switch, and as the switch is always on, no worries about having to share printers etc. Something like the SMC BR14UP is a good example.

Can't go wrong with Brians advice tho.
 
The only things I would add to Brian's suggestions (I agree with all of them) are

A good sharable scanner on the server, may want one with a sheet feeder.

Also a phone line with the server to use as a FAX send/receive and potentially a remote management port when Internet is down.

Network gateway could be a VPN type, again for remote management.

I know you like to spend time with the wife but it's often convenient to use the Remote Desktop or Remote Assist features rather than something like mypc.com

Joe
 
SJP said:
Only thing I would add to Brian's excellent advice - A number of the Workgroup switches/routers come with a built in printserver. Saves having to leave a PC on to manage a print queue and so on. The printer hooks to the switch, and as the switch is always on, no worries about having to share printers etc. Something like the SMC BR14UP is a good example.

Can't go wrong with Brians advice tho.
The nice thing about a network printer is you don't need a printserver. Each workstation takes care of its own print queue, mapping directly to the printer over IP. The printer plugs directly into the LAN.
 
Brian Austin said:
The nice thing about a network printer is you don't need a printserver. Each workstation takes care of its own print queue, mapping directly to the printer over IP. The printer plugs directly into the LAN.

Agreed - assuming you can get one at a decent price ;) The built in print server means any printer can become a network printer.

The one I have at home works just the same, IP on the network :)
 
SJP said:
Agreed - assuming you can get one at a decent price ;) The built in print server means any printer can become a network printer.

The one I have at home works just the same, IP on the network :)
http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=767755

I was wrong: $300. I've got a few of them running in our offices for two/three people groups. Work great.
 
Skip Miller said:
At home, I have a 4-port router with wireless and a built-in print server. Under $50 after rebate. Would one of these do?

-Skip
Yes, it would work. It's more a matter of choice than anything. If you're doing any kind of higher volume printing (as most businesses do), inkjet technology costs more per page than laser. This printer just happens to already have the network connection built-in and I'm familiar with it. That's all.
 
Skip Miller said:
need to design a PC-Windows based network

Why? All of the software you mentioned is available on the Mac as well (in fact, I use all of the above!).

Phase I: Gather up all the old keyboards, mice, and monitors you can find and buy Mac Minis for the workstations. (or buy whatever random keyboards, mice, and monitors you want.)

That meets all of your

cost effective
safe and reliable
Microsoft Office (primarily Word, Excel, and Powerpoint)
Quickbooks.
File and printer sharing
Virus protection

requirements.

Other than that, I agree with what Brian said WRT printers and networking. And if for some reason Windows is actually a requirement... Well, sucks to be you. :D
 
The fact that it took until post #11 to hear from a Mac fan is rather surprising here...
 
Brian Austin said:
The fact that it took until post #11 to hear from a Mac fan is rather surprising here...

That's because we were all at Gaston's rather than sitting at home fixing our computers. :D :rofl:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Why? All of the software you mentioned is available on the Mac as well (in fact, I use all of the above!).

Phase I: Gather up all the old keyboards, mice, and monitors you can find and buy Mac Minis for the workstations. (or buy whatever random keyboards, mice, and monitors you want.)

That meets all of your requirements.

Other than that, I agree with what Brian said WRT printers and networking. And if for some reason Windows is actually a requirement... Well, sucks to be you. :D

As the starter of this thread, I am going to ask that all PC-Mac arguments, even in jest, stop now - they are out of order.

Why go PC and not Mac? Remember guys, I am not PIC here. I'm just helping out, and that is the way they want to go.

Why do they want to go PC and Bill Gates? a) That's what they use now, and there is no learning curve at all to stay with it. b) Simply put, the percentage of their potential customers that use the PC hardware and software is shockingly close to 100%. That is not a slam, it is just a fact. To ensure compatibility at the highest level with the customer, it makes good sense to use the same kind of equipment/software.

But now you can educate me. I have close to zero experience with the Mac World.

1) Can a Word/Excel/Powerpoint etc file created on a Mac be read/edited/stored on a PC version of Word/etc.? Or do they need some sort of conversion?

2) Can you plug a Mac into a PC Network?

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
1) Can a Word/Excel/Powerpoint etc file created on a Mac be read/edited/stored on a PC version of Word/etc.?

Yes - and vice versa

Skip Miller said:
2) Can you plug a Mac into a PC Network?

Yes

The old addage of "If you want to see what the next release of Windoze looks like, just boot up the previous release of the Apple O/S" used to be scarily accurate. Not so sure now that Apple O/S is Unix based... I don't think Windoze can catch up to it.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Why? All of the software you mentioned is available on the Mac as well (in fact, I use all of the above!).

Phase I: Gather up all the old keyboards, mice, and monitors you can find and buy Mac Minis for the workstations. (or buy whatever random keyboards, mice, and monitors you want.)

That meets all of your requirements.

Other than that, I agree with what Brian said WRT printers and networking. And if for some reason Windows is actually a requirement... Well, sucks to be you. :D

Except that you can run Windows on an Intel Mac - only it runs Windows faster than most current Windows PCs. It runs Windows in a Mac OS X window faster than on most current PCs.

And Samba, which underlies Windows networking on a Mac has always been a faster Windows server than Windows, because it has the advantage of not running on Windows.
 
Skip Miller said:
As the starter of this thread, I am going to ask that all PC-Mac arguments, even in jest, stop now - they are out of order.

Sorry Skip, I'm not trying to start a war - Just asking an honest question. Many people think they "need" Windows to get along with the rest of the world, and it just isn't true. They end up putting up with all of the Windows hassles for no reason.

Now, for starters, remember that the new Macs are Intel-based and will run Windows. (Mike A just bought one, so he knows more about how well this works than I do.) So, if worst comes to worst and they really do need Windows for something, all you have to do is reboot, not buy a new computer! :yes:

2) Can you plug a Mac into a PC Network?

A network is a network. As a "for instance," that printer that Brian mentioned doesn't even know whether it's talking to a Mac or a PC. The network itself is based on a physical layer (usually Ethernet), a transport layer (such as TCP/IP), a protocol layer (like HTTP), and an application layer (like Internet Exploder). The only layer where you see much difference is the application layer, though what we traditionally think of as a "Windows network" uses the SMB protocol. (Yes Brian and all the network geeks, I know this is a tad oversimplified, but I'm not trying to teach a course in networking here.)

Anyway... Macs have spoken SMB for a while, at least as long as OS X has been out (several years). All you have to do to turn it on is go into System Preferences (the OS X equivalent of the Control Panel), click on "Sharing" and check the box next to "Windows File Sharing." From there, it's basically the same as on Windows. (Caveat: I have not set this up with XP and it's been a while since I've done it on the Mac side.) I do know that it works, though.

Without getting into any more nitty gritty detail, Macs are the most "compatible" computers there are: They run OS X programs, they run Unix programs, and now they can be rebooted into Windows (or they can even run Windows programs without a reboot with the addition of a third-party app - Mike, do you have this?). They network well, they have most of the software that most people need as well as plenty of things that are Mac only...

Basically, Apple knows damn well that if they refuse to play with the rest of the world, they would quickly die out. So, they've gone to great lengths to make Macs play well with others. :yes: Under the "classic" (OS 9 and previous) Mac OS it was kludgy a lot of the time, but under OS X things work beautifully.

And if you buy those Intel-based Mac Minis and they decide they absolutely hate them, all you have to do is install Windows and they become Windows PC's. There's really no big risk to giving the Macs a try.
 
My only disagreement is that, if I were setting this all up, I'd go ahead and buy a basic server, rather than relying upon a workstation as a server. You can get a thoroughly competent server (Dell Poweredge, dual processor, dual drive, $1,185.00), install a good Linux build, and watch it run without issue.

I have gone six months without a halt or reboot, Microsoft wishes they could write an operating system so stable.

Having a workstation serve files is a recipe for trouble. MHO.
 
SCCutler said:
I have gone six months without a halt or reboot, Microsoft wishes they could write an operating system so stable.
I have several MS Windows 2003 servers that regularly run well over six months without reboots. My phone system, also running on a Windows 2003 Server, just recently rebooted due to a power outage that apparently showed me I had a UPS without battery power. It was up since December according to the logs.

It ain't the OS anymore. It's the administration.
 
The only reboots my Win2K servers have required were due to security patches. If I defer those patches I can (and have) had them run for 8 months with out problems - problems I've seen in other environments are due to bad third party software.

It ain't Solaris yet, but it's getting closer all the time.
 
Brian Austin said:
I have several MS Windows 2003 servers that regularly run well over six months without reboots. My phone system, also running on a Windows 2003 Server, just recently rebooted due to a power outage that apparently showed me I had a UPS without battery power. It was up since December according to the logs.

It ain't the OS anymore. It's the administration.

We run 2k3 and 2k in a five-nines operation. We have Windows servers that ran in isolated labs (hence no need to patch) for over 18 months without reboots...

...but it was requested that this didn't get into PC vs. Mac.

Either platform will serve the OP's needs - which one he chooses is as much a financial decision as it is personal preference. I would recommend that if he is generally familiar with the Windows platform, and is going to be the defacto IT guy...he might choose not to introduce an unknown while starting up a business ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Sorry Skip, I'm not trying to start a war - Just asking an honest question. Many people think they "need" Windows to get along with the rest of the world, and it just isn't true. They end up putting up with all of the Windows hassles for no reason.

Now, for starters, remember that the new Macs are Intel-based and will run Windows. (Mike A just bought one, so he knows more about how well this works than I do.) So, if worst comes to worst and they really do need Windows for something, all you have to do is reboot, not buy a new computer! :yes:
...
Without getting into any more nitty gritty detail, Macs are the most "compatible" computers there are: They run OS X programs, they run Unix programs, and now they can be rebooted into Windows (or they can even run Windows programs without a reboot with the addition of a third-party app - Mike, do you have this?). They network well, they have most of the software that most people need as well as plenty of things that are Mac only...
...
What I have working is Windows in the virtual machine of Parallels desktop.
http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop

I haven't installed Boot Camp which lets you dual boot into Windows yet, and I may not ever do that. When I put Linux on my PCs I hardly ever used it. I won't have a need to boot fully into Windows.

What I mainly needed was the ability to run the Cisco VPN to get into work and that works in the VM. Windows in the VM is as fast as it is on my 64bit AMD tower.

flyingcheesehead said:
And if you buy those Intel-based Mac Minis and they decide they absolutely hate them, all you have to do is install Windows and they become Windows PC's. There's really no big risk to giving the Macs a try.

Right. You just have to deal with it being fast Intel hardware for Windows for now. You'll manage. :rolleyes:
 

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I would really advise you to think the server thing out a bit. How much money will it cost for people to lose data? How much money will it cost the company to be down for a minute, a hour, a day? A lot.

The solution that I am currently deploying consists of:

Two servers with:
2 x SATA drives in RAID Mirror for the OS
5 x SATA drives in RAID 5 Array for data storage

Both will be using Vmware for virtulization and load balancing.

We can lose several hard drives...Several power supplies...An entire server. Without anyone noticing...

I can have multiple virtual servers on each server. I can perform hardware maintence on one server...Have the virtual servers all jump to the other server and no one would even notice.

Cost? .. A few thousand per server

Cost of losing a day of work? A week? A month? ...A hell of a lot more.
 
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Apparently none of you folks have started a business. Time shouldn't be spent on managing your network, it should be building the business. Every dollar spent on IT is one less dollar toward advertising or marketing. Every hour spent getting your network up and running is one less hour spent generating income.

The workstation share will be fine for a while, provided it's backed up regularly. If the "server" goes down, simply restore the backup to a different workstation, create the share and point the workstations to that one instead. Assuming a full DVD of backup, it's probably 15 minutes worth of downtime.

Keep in mind, too, he asked for PHASE I, not the full blown package. This is a foundation to build upon, not the final result.

And if I was going to recommend a fileserver solution, I'd probably go with a Buffalo Terastation or something for $800ish. Built-in RAID, automatic filesharing, easy management and built-in printserving on some models.
 
Brian Austin said:
Time shouldn't be spent on managing your network, it should be building the business

Exactly. So do it right. Every minute you can't work because your network isn't reliable..is money lost.

It's cheaper to spend the extra dollar vs. lose a thousand later.
 
jangell said:
Exactly. So do it right. Every minute you can't work because your network isn't reliable..is money lost.

It's cheaper to spend the extra dollar vs. lose a thousand later.
And every minute you have to spend working on technology you're not familiar with is money lost. It's easy to say "spend the money now" when it's not your own or you HAVE the expertise to make it work. Hiring someone to make it work could cost thousands more than the original server.

The KISS principle has never proved me wrong in the 15 years I've been doing this professionally (and 25 years personally).

The workstation shares work for what is required and offer a reasonable recovery technique when down. Thousands of businesses around the country are using this very technique, often on older machines, with no issues.

Backing up regularly is the key to making it work. I've seen redundant systems go down because of a single controller. All that extra 'stuff' is only as good as your weakest link.
 
If the backup is not automated. It's not going to be made. That's justda' way it usually works.

At this point I would like to step up and suggest:

WordPerfect

:D
 
jangell said:
If the backup is not automated. It's not going to be made. That's justda' way it usually works.
Odd. My tape library doesn't automatically eject last week's tapes, insert the new week's tapes, and take home old tapes every Friday and yet...it always gets done.

Outlook calendar reminders are a wonderful thing. ;)
 
Brian Austin said:
Odd. My tape library doesn't automatically eject last week's tapes, insert the new week's tapes, and take home old tapes every Friday and yet...it always gets done.

Outlook calendar reminders are a wonderful thing. ;)

Like I said usually. The vast majority of people fail to keep backups.
 
Brian Austin said:
I've seen redundant systems go down because of a single controller. All that extra 'stuff' is only as good as your weakest link.

And that was the beauty of the architecture of the old Tandem systems. No single point of failure. Controller goes down? No problem, there's another talking to the disk drive(s). Drive goes down? No problem, the mirror drive is still there. Processor quits? No problem, work shifts to the backup (you did build it to the maximum 16 processors, didn't you?). Oh yeah, they did take up a "little" floor space and chew up a lot of 3 phase power, but nothing's free. If you can't tell, I enjoyed working for that company for about 11 1/2 years. Now it's Intel for the past 11 years. Glad Apple made the switch. I can sit back and watch the Apple vs. Windows arguments and we win either way. :D
 
Brian Austin said:
And if I was going to recommend a fileserver solution, I'd probably go with a Buffalo Terastation or something for $800ish. Built-in RAID, automatic filesharing, easy management and built-in printserving on some models.

I shoulda thought of this.

I got one of these, and it is great; very easy/turnkey.

But I sure like the sound of Jesse's multi-server setup.
 
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