Is virtually learning on a Cessna 172 then for real on a 152 a bad idea?

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darlingm

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darlingm
Just planning out private pilot license training.

The idea of Gleim's private pilot training course that is integrated with X-Plane (simulation software), which allows you to go through the entire course before actually getting in a plane really appeals to my learning style and desire to "solo early" and complete as close to 40 hours as possible.

But Gleim's X-Plane integration is based on you using a Cessna 172. And, renting a Cessna 152 locally is about $37/hour less expensive than a Cessna 172.

Is learning virtually on a 172, and switching to a real 152 likely to throw off my training, or should that be a fairly easy conversion? Don't want to shoot myself in the foot...
 
Many here would argue that primary training should start in the real thing with a real instructor so you learn all the right habits first. While virtual training like this would likely help a lot with your future training, such as getting your instrument rating, you should be very cautious about doing any kind of self-guided training in a sim without first consulting with a CFI.
 
I would think the 152 vs 172 differences would be the least of your worries. The last thing you want to do is to learn things the wrong way. So much of the early flying is learning what certain pitch attitudes look like at power settings that you can't really get on a computer.
 
Its not so much the difference between the 2. Like what was said above, the problem lies with building bad habits from the start. Honestly the only time I would use a simulator would be for instrument type training or just cockpit situation reference.
 
It will not be SIM time that determines if you solo early and complete training in 40 hours.

I was too gung-ho on learning as much as I could on the sim pre PPL training and most advised against it. Should have listened, I now have a bunch of hardware that was of little value to my training. START with a CFI...you don't know what you don't know to know what you are doing right and wrong. SIMS for PPL training are simply toys, not training devices that provide much substantial useful tools for you actual PPL.

I learned the most information pre training via Youtube videos and online training seminars. Having familiarity with the terms, procedures and mechanics of the the plane is what allowed me to pass in 41 hours. As much as I wanted to learn the physical aspects of flying, that can only really be done hands on.

If you care to ignore said advice like I did, I will give ya a great deal on a full Saitek setup!
 
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I'm pretty convinced time in an aviation training device early will not teach you where to look. So much of PPL VFR flying is done by looking outside and seeing the attitude of the airplane.
 
Your desires may hold you back from accepting reality.

Why do you desire to solo early? Is there a club for people who solo early? Trying to beat someone to solo? You should leave that immature thinking behind.

You'll solo when your CFI thinks you're ready. Good luck!
 
If you have not had any flight training yet - stay away from the sim. Once you start taking actual lessons, then use the computer sim to practice/reinforce what you learned in the actual airplane. I think a computer sim does have some value for PPL training that way.
 
Shawn said:
It will not be SIM time that determines if you solo early and complete training in 40 hours.

I was too gung-ho on learning as much as I could on the sim pre PPL training and most advised against it. Should have listened, I now have a bunch of hardware that was of little value to my training. START with a CFI...you don't know what you don't know to know what you are doing right and wrong. SIMS for PPL training are simply toys, not training devices that provide much substantial useful tools for you actual PPL.

I learned the most information pre training via Youtube videos and online training seminars. Having familiarity with the terms, procedures and mechanics of the the plane is what allowed me to pass in 41 hours. As much as I wanted to learn the physical aspects of flying, that can only really be done hands on.

If you care to ignore said advice like I did, I will give ya a great deal on a full Saitek setup!
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^^^^^ :yes: Went there bought the tee shirt ...and the full Saitek setup which is sitting in the loft with less than 6 hours TT on her.....
 
I've had sim guys with "hundreds" or maybe "thousands" - I have no way of verifying that claim - come in and do horribly. One that stands out was convinced he knew everything about flying a plane when he came in for a discovery flight. He insisted on doing a bunch of things his way - not as I recommended. After a bit, I decided to let him do it his way as long as I tried to keep him safe. He was waaaaay too inside the cockpit even though he knew how to make radio calls perfectly and knew the numbers for the flying speeds and such. He nearly puked on me as he "didn't expect it to be so bumpy" but wouldn't look outside enough to calm himself down. It just wasn't what he fantasized it would be. I managed to keep him from puking and I ended up flying the airplane back to the airport as straight, smoothly, and quickly as possible. True story. I never saw him again.
 
For PPL I don't think the sim will hurt you much, though I am not/not a CFI, and I yield the floor to the previous posters. But, to be a bit contrarian, the mechanics of VFR flight in a 152/172 are crow-bar simple. If you can operate a knife and fork, you can fly a 152/172, and likely solo in under 10 hours of dual.

The sim will help you get a feel for "rates", as in, the effect your control inputs have, in amplitude and rate-of-change. Keep your head out of the cockpit in the sim, though, as someone described earlier regarding the real airplane.

Again, the physical act of operating the flight controls becomes intuitive quickly; the modern training environment tends to be way over the top in that regard, layering on some silliness. I think that comes into vogue in any semi-technical endeavor, as ot matures.

The other stuff is more the crux of flying; avionics, flight planning, using the system, learning the rules, etc. But just taking off, flying, and landing a 152/172 - doing it in a sim before the real thing won't hurt you any.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If you have not had any flight training yet - stay away from the sim. Once you start taking actual lessons, then use the computer sim to practice/reinforce what you learned in the actual airplane. I think a computer sim does have some value for PPL training that way.
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This ^^

You might learn cockpit layout and checklist procedures etc but without airplane time, you really won't be able to tell what is represented well and is not in the sim.

I think practicing what you have actually done already can help if you know what you are looking for.

Make it a point to not focus too much on your instruments and use the sim to help with your multitasking/attention division.
 
Thanks everyone for responses.

SmashTime said:
Your desires may hold you back from accepting reality.

Why do you desire to solo early? Is there a club for people who solo early? Trying to beat someone to solo? You should leave that immature thinking behind.

You'll solo when your CFI thinks you're ready. Good luck!
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Happy to put in extra time to keep costs down. Looks like videos & more reading might be more productive rather than flight simulation. Or at least, simulating certain things after real lessons.

Goal is to build up to 1,000 flight hours and get an Authorized Experimental Aircraft rating to either own or frequently rent an Aero L-39C Albatros fighter jet... As a very long term plan on a standard income, so trimming whatever I can wherever I can if it's legit and safe.

A few hours on the PPL is of course a very small fraction of this expense, but it's something. Then on to figuring out how to get other people to pay for me to fly... Without making flying full time. Considering ferry'ing planes and the civil air patrol, but I'm not sure how much flight time the CAP would give in Michigan.
 
darlingm said:
own or frequently rent an Aero L-39C Albatros fighter jet... As a very long term plan on a standard income, so trimming whatever I can wherever I can if it's legit and safe.
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I hope you have a 7-figure bank account.
 
darlingm said:
Thanks everyone for responses.

Goal is to build up to 1,000 flight hours and get an Authorized Experimental Aircraft rating to either own or frequently rent an Aero L-39C Albatros fighter jet... As a very long term plan on a standard income, so trimming whatever I can wherever I can if it's legit and safe. Then on to figuring out how to get other people to pay for me to fly... Without making flying full time.
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Wouldn't it be great if you figured out how to reach those goals? Jetting around in an L39?

A person's gotta have goals. :yes:
 
My home flight simulator went from being a game to a valuable learning tool for both my private and instrument rating. I'm one that had thousands of hours in these type of games. I know a year prior to taking my first flight I had 500 hours flying a fake P51 alone. Overall it helped me in my training.

However once I did start the training I stuck with the plane that was similar to what I was training on and practiced any procedural items I could to reinforce things I learned. In the end they're so dissimilar that you won't confuse one with the other.
 
I also find that people who have sim experience tend to fixate WAY too much on the instruments and don't look outside.
 
darlingm said:
Just planning out private pilot license training.

The idea of Gleim's private pilot training course that is integrated with X-Plane (simulation software), which allows you to go through the entire course before actually getting in a plane really appeals to my learning style and desire to "solo early" and complete as close to 40 hours as possible.

But Gleim's X-Plane integration is based on you using a Cessna 172. And, renting a Cessna 152 locally is about $37/hour less expensive than a Cessna 172.

Is learning virtually on a 172, and switching to a real 152 likely to throw off my training, or should that be a fairly easy conversion? Don't want to shoot myself in the foot...
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Simulators are not 3-dimensional, and lack feel. So it doesn't matter what you get into when you start your real world training. Also, radio technique and avoiding real world traffic are skills best learned in the real sky.

Simulators will give you some notion of what the instruments look like but will not help you figure out how to takeoff, land, or fly real world maneuvers. And most of the training in a real aircraft cannot be avoided, for example your cross country dual and solos, your night work, and your under-hood work.

How long it takes also depends on your real world learning ability since your CFI cannot sign you off until you demonstrate in an actual aircraft all the skills needed to pass the checkride.
 
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darlingm said:
....which allows you to go through the entire course before actually getting in a plane really appeals to my learning style and desire to "solo early" and complete as close to 40 hours as possible.
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Is that what Gleim's is advertising? Any guarantee?
 
Nobody has mentioned "Primacy of Learning" yet, but everyone has been talking around it. Simply put, what you learn first hardwires your brain to becomes what you do first. In a safe simulator, without a CFI, with no collisions, you will fixate on the instruments, which is exactly what you should not do in an airplane flying VFR - which is 95% of a PPL. Learning in a simulator goes beyond teaching you bad habits, it teaches you to fly the wrong way.
 
Using a sim first for your private ,is not a good idea. You may be reinforcing bad habits. The instructor may use different techniques. The sim is good for IFR training.
 
I have a smidgeion of time in a L-39; I actually preferred the handling of a SF-260. Maybe look at that airplane, as well, unless you have your heart set on a L-39? Did you get a ride in a L-39 and fall in love? Easy to do!

Used 260's are generally $100K less, avionics and engine time dependent, of course. It'll be a lot easier to insure and maintain than the jet. You won't need a thousand hours PIC, either, to out one on.
 
You will gain absolutely no useful stick and rudder skills in a simulator. None. The biggest hurdle for student pilots is learning to control an aircraft safely in a variety of flight conditions, especially on approach and landing. You really have to feel and learn that in the real deal. The second biggest hurdle for student pilots is dealing with weather and navigation. Not that much help from the sim there either. Flying XC provides lessons for in flight decision making and positional awareness.

Study, fly, and evaluate your performance. When you can manage the physical and mental aspects of flying safely, you will be ready for the check ride. It's not a race. Light singles are more alike than different, really. Know your V-speeds and fly by the poh numbers. If you do that, a C152 isn't that much different than a C172.
 
Strated working on my PPL a couple months ago. Did a lot of flight sim just for fun 25 years ago. The one bad habit that stuck with me on my first flight 25 yrs later was keeping my head stuck in the cockpit. I learned a lot about airplanes, VOR nav, instruments, etc. but like the guys here are saying, you might pick up bad habits. Using the instruments on a flight sim is a crutch because you don't have the other sensory inputs...don't let it carry over. Best bet, lay off the flight sim until you start actual flying. Then you'll know the differences, the good, the bad, etc.
 
jordane93 said:
I also find that people who have sim experience tend to fixate WAY too much on the instruments and don't look outside.
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Maybe that's why it never adversely affected my flying. As a kid I completely ignored the instruments and flew around hitting buildings and what not. My dad would get onto me about playing it "wrong". Wasn't until I was an adult when I actually wanted to know what everything did that I looked at the instruments. But even then I was more interested in the graphics outside than inside.


chemgeek said:
You will gain absolutely no useful stick and rudder skills in a simulator. None.
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I would argue that an hour or two messing in a simulator that has a yoke and pedals will help you learn the basic controls of a plane. If you have little to no concept of control coordination then doing it on a sim would help you.
 
Just start a gofundme account and ask other pilots to help with the cost of flying. Worked for me
 
You really need to decide for yourself.

It's true that sims will not provide any "feel" but neither do books or videos

I have no way to know whether I would be further along or behind if I had never practiced anything on the sim but I think it has helped me, but before I started training I couldn't semi-accurately reproduce any lessons in the sim because I didn't know what to look for.

There are just as many stories of sim pilots quickly transitioning to be great pilots ahead of non simmers.

It's different for everyone.

There are those who will automatically tell you that sims are useless for training or practice no matter what. I think YMMV.

You can guard against the tendency of fixating on instruments since you know that is an issue.

I believe simming has helped me with the timing of the round out because this technique also works on a simulator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5HEJCyTuk

Of course there is no substitute for the real thing but if you want to have some fun and maybe learn a little, go ahead and play the sim. Then when you start flying, forget about it and listen to the instructor.

Later on you can use the sim to pre fly a route or to work on navigation.

I know that works, because I simulated a flight in a town I used to live using nothing but landmarks. They were close enough to real life, that I easily found my destination airport.
 
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My advice is this: Anything that helps develop the hand/eye coordination of flying, particularly landing, is going to be helpful.

I had hundreds of hours in the (primitive, by today's standards) flight sims of the early 1990s before I ever sat in a trainer. I was soloed in 6.2 hours, one of the lowest times I have heard, which saved me significant money. I attribute this to my sim time.

Is home flight sim flying exactly the same as real flying? Of course not. But anyone with a brain stem knows that, and will anticipate the differences, which are primarily to do with motion and visibility.

Interestingly, I found that real flying was actually easier, simply because you could see where you were going. Flying a computer sim, even with two screens, is like flying a real airplane while looking through a pair of toilet paper tubes. You must guess at and anticipate your relative position in ways that make flying a real airplane feel luxuriously easy. YMMV.
 
The bottom line is it doesn't really matter. I went in thinking I would try to earn my sport in the minimum hours.

I long ago stopped caring about that. I'll be ready when I'm ready. If I decide to go on to PPL I also don't care if I have to duplicate hours, all hours training with an instructor are well spent.

If you want to try Xplane, go ahead. It may help or not but it's fun and might help keep you motivated and keep your "head in the game."

Completing in minimum hours isn't to get you laid more. Just pay as you go and enjoy it. It's not a race, it's a lifelong learning experience.
 
I was one of the ones that had "thousands" of MSFS hours before ever being in a GA aircraft. I've also never had an instructor demonstrate a landing for me. On my intro flight - which was the first time I'd ever been inside a non-airliner - the instructor didn't ever touch the controls.

Couple that with being signed off in the minimum time, I must have really learned some horrible habits from flight simulator.

The fact is no one here knows anything about you, or how you learn, or how you pick up on things and are completely talking out of their ass when it comes to YOU and YOUR instruction/learning. But there are certainly going to let you know they are an expert on what you should or shouldn't do.

Do what you want, you might be one that transitions easily.
 
EdFred said:
I was one of the ones that had "thousands" of MSFS hours before ever being in a GA aircraft. I've also never had an instructor demonstrate a landing for me. On my intro flight - which was the first time I'd ever been inside a non-airliner - the instructor didn't ever touch the controls.

Couple that with being signed off in the minimum time, I must have really learned some horrible habits from flight simulator.

The fact is no one here knows anything about you, or how you learn, or how you pick up on things and are completely talking out of their ass when it comes to YOU and YOUR instruction/learning. But there are certainly going to let you know they are an expert on what you should or shouldn't do.

Do what you want, you might be one that transitions easily.
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:thumbsup:

There you go. For some people, it seems to help quite a bit. For others, maybe not.

This does look interesting.

https://www.gleim.com/products/prod...-X-Plane-Flight-Training-Course-Private-Pilot
 
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As a former instructor, I occasionally encountered some guy that had spent time fly a sim to try to get ahead. Those guys usually had bad habits that were hard to break.

From the Transport Canada flight instructor guide:

PRIMACY — Present new knowledge or skills correctly the first time. (Teach it right the first time.)
(a) When students are presented with new knowledge or skills, the first impression received is almost unshakeable. This means that what you teach must be correct the first time.
Students may forget the details of lessons, but will retain an overall image of the skill or
knowledge for a long time. Frequently you will be required to perform manoeuvres in the
aircraft before a student has had the necessary background training. You must perform
those manoeuvres correctly or the student may imitate any errors you make. For
example, before the exercise on cross-wind landings, you and your student are required to land in a cross-wind. Any poor example shown at this time would have to be "unlearned" when the exercise came up in a subsequent lesson.

Attempt to give a perfect demonstration of the manoeuvres to be learned in the next lesson. If students read or study exercise material without experiencing the actual
exercise, they may form an incorrect mental image.
(3) If practicable, start each lesson with a perfect demonstration. Sometimes it may be
better to avoid talking during this demonstration to allow maximum concentration on
doing the skill perfectly.
(4) While the student is performing an exercise, supervise the actions very closely. Stop the student as soon as any performance error is noticed and teach the correct
method. Close supervision means — NEVER allow a student to make an error
during the initial stages of training. Think of how you would go about training a
student to defuse a live bomb.

Far better than sim time would be for the student to study things like Angle of Attack and airspeed and how they change in various modes of flight and how they relate to lift and what stalling is all about. There are far too many pilots killing themselves because they don't have a clear understanding of such things. It's like the driver of a motor vehicle not understanding traction.
 
EdFred said:
I was one of the ones that had "thousands" of MSFS hours before ever being in a GA aircraft. I've also never had an instructor demonstrate a landing for me. On my intro flight - which was the first time I'd ever been inside a non-airliner - the instructor didn't ever touch the controls.

Couple that with being signed off in the minimum time, I must have really learned some horrible habits from flight simulator.

The fact is no one here knows anything about you, or how you learn, or how you pick up on things and are completely talking out of their ass when it comes to YOU and YOUR instruction/learning. But there are certainly going to let you know they are an expert on what you should or shouldn't do.

Do what you want, you might be one that transitions easily.
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Same with me. I was landing by the 2nd lesson, soloed at 12 hours, and had my ticket at 42 hours.

I firmly believe I wouldn't of come close to that without the basic things I learned flying simulators for years. Furthmore, I probably never would of had an interest in flying without the flight simulators I played as a kid.

Like you said, everyone is different. The worst that can happen is your instructor will correct some things. The best that can happen is it really helps you with some knowledge areas and coordination along the way.

And the sim was invaluable for when I got my IFR.
 
As many have said, start with a CFI first. I had zero sim time, and still was able to solo in 6.1 hours... Well, 7.1 if you could my intro/discovery flight. There are however so many factors... Meet with a CFI and begin the journey.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
Really appreciate everyone's responses. As a response, in general, I think I'm going to start with the simulator, but be really conscious to not do more than quickly glance at the instruments. I could be totally wrong, but I think I'm one of those that will later feel they really benefited from it.

DesertNomad said:
I hope you have a 7-figure bank account.
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I don't, but the average person makes and spends $2 million over their lifetime. Someone obsessed with something can make sacrifices to make "expensive" things happen.

luvflyin said:
Is that what Gleim's is advertising? Any guarantee?
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No, they don't advertise solo'ing early or completing in less hours, and there's no guarantee on their X-Plane add-on. They do recommend completing their X-Plane course "at least once before beginning your actual flight training". See here and here.

Sundancer said:
I have a smidgeion of time in a L-39; I actually preferred the handling of a SF-260. Maybe look at that airplane, as well, unless you have your heart set on a L-39? Did you get a ride in a L-39 and fall in love? Easy to do!

Used 260's are generally $100K less, avionics and engine time dependent, of course. It'll be a lot easier to insure and maintain than the jet. You won't need a thousand hours PIC, either, to out one on.
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Very good point, thanks. I am planning on an L-39C ride very soon, but I should try a few others including the SF-260 to see if the "on paper" difference I'm caught on makes as big of a real world difference. (On paper, there is such a difference.)

jimson said:
:thumbsup:

There you go. For some people, it seems to help quite a bit. For others, maybe not.

This does look interesting.

https://www.gleim.com/products/prod...-X-Plane-Flight-Training-Course-Private-Pilot
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Yeah, it really does. Sadly, X-Plane has a digital download, but Gleim's version doesn't. I don't want to buy X-Plane twice, so I haven't gotten to use either on this nice holiday weekend. :-(
 
You might Google "Air Combat" for the SF-260; they work out of SoCal, but have a traveling road show, too. They do mock dogfight kinda stuff, but it'll also give you a goid feel for that airplane.
 
Sims are great for procedures but not for the stick and rudder you need.

As a ATP/CFI, IMO for PPL students, sims arnt that great of a investment.
 
They keep you interested and give you some experience until you can do the real thing.
 
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