Is this quote reasonable?

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callegro

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Callegro
Hi guys,

So I have been due for an avionics upgrade on my 180D, and since the recent unbearable background static in my radios, I have decided to pull the trigger. I have had an audio panel at the top of my list for a while, so I was just gonna get that installed and have the avionics specialist troubleshoot the static issue.

I have gotten a couple of quotes so far. Showing these guys pics of my panel, one said I have to lose the COM/NAV 1. It's an older TKM which was a replacement for the older, more popular TKM. He says they are very unreliable as far as wiring goes and that radio could give out anytime. With that said, he recommended a GNC255, plus a new CDI.

When all is said and done, it will be around 13k. That is with about 35hrs of estimated labor. Not really what I was looking to spend.....Did try and sell me on an XPDR too, with the mandate right around the corner. I'm trying to get other quotes and seeing which is the best route for me to go. Would love to hear your guys' input. Thanks!
 

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For the price of that new gnc you can practically get a GNS430, and plenty of TKMs are doing just fine.

Also one of the big selling points for that overpriced garmin they wanted to install is its has a nearest feature, but it requires GPS input, and I don't see a GPS in your panel. Again a used 430 will do everything that GNC will, plus tons more, it's full IFR and practically the same price.


Sounds like he's just trying to up sell you, maybe he's got some major debt, or kids getting ready for college, ether way not your problem.

As far as ADSB, wait, if you know anything about tech you'll understand, plus many folks don't need to comply with that mandate depending on where they ACTUALY fly.

Just tell him the only thing that might "give out anytime" is you as a customer and to just quote the job you asked him to do.
 
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Don't replace the TKM until it breaks. Many "avionics shops" hate on them because they can't fix them, and they want to upsell Garmins etc because "they are unreliable" etc.
TKM is a great radio, I love mine.
 
I've had my overhauled TKM 12 for almost 15 years and it's still got clear sound and accurate VOR/ILS. Go for a 430 waas and a PS engineering intercom. It'll work with anything you get now and later.
 
That's only $3 short of what a guy on here was quoted for a new GTN650 with new CDI, doesn't sound reasonable to me at all. A 650 is worth twice what a GNC-255(a) is.
 
I'd move the TKM down and slide a 430 in there. Easy decision but there will be a good bit of labor. You may or may not be able to keep that CDI.

Getting a panel mounted GPS will probably give you more flying enjoyment over the next 3 yrs than ads-b compliance.
 
bnt83 said:
That's only $3 short of what a guy on here was quoted for a new GTN650 with new CDI, doesn't sound reasonable to me at all. A 650 is worth twice what a GNC-255(a) is.
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^^^this
 
The avionics guy says he cannot install used radios that he doesn't have in stock. I was leaning towards an SL30, but he didn't have one. The big issue that needs fixed is the background static, which can be several different things. I'm in a bind here, because most avionics shops cannot get me in until next year. The soonest I can get in with this guy is Dec 12th. 13k is quite a bit though for an audio panel and a nav/com with an indicator. Guess that's the price you pay for owning a plane.
 
Where are you located?

As for the static, here's a much cheaper First Item To Try....

Put filter on the alternator. Maybe a couple hundred total. Best part - your A& P can do it.

As for not having a unit in stock, if he's a Garmin shop, he can order it. If he's not Garmin authorized, you don't want him to install it. It's warrantee thang. The 255 is the new version of the SL30. So far the hardware is about $6k. And you're still without GPS down the road. What audio panel does he rcommed and 2) will your GS indicator work with the 255?

The 13k is almost half the value of your airplane for stuff you may not need.

Live with the staitc until after the first of the year....you're being taken to the cleaners.
 
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callegro said:
The avionics guy says he cannot install used radios that he doesn't have in stock. I was leaning towards an SL30, but he didn't have one. The big issue that needs fixed is the background static, which can be several different things. I'm in a bind here, because most avionics shops cannot get me in until next year. The soonest I can get in with this guy is Dec 12th. 13k is quite a bit though for an audio panel and a nav/com with an indicator. Guess that's the price you pay for owning a plane.
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Bear in mind, it's not that he CAN'T install used radios, it's that he won't. That's a business decision on his part. If you want to install cheaper used radios, find another avionics shop that will install them. Radio shops are a dime a dozen, just look around and find one. You own an airplane, so a shop that's even a couple hundred miles away shouldn't necessarily be out of the question if they'll do what you want for the right price. Don't resign yourself to spending more money than you want on radios that you don't necessarily want.
 
callegro said:
The avionics guy says he cannot install used radios that he doesn't have in stock...
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Find another shop.

For me that's a killer and a really bad sign.

This guy is just out to squeeze you for as much cash as he can.


Find another shop.
 
So anyone know any good avionics shops in Calif? Or even in NV or AZ.
 
I know a hella good one in Alamosa, CO. :)

Expensive but things will be done right.
 
callegro said:
...I have gotten a couple of quotes so far. Showing these guys pics of my panel, one said I have to lose the COM/NAV 1. It's an older TKM which was a replacement for the older, more popular TKM. He says they are very unreliable as far as wiring goes and that radio could give out anytime..
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This is the first time I have ever heard a TKM is "unreliable". They seem a pretty well made product that was a great option to replace older Cessna radios in particular. The business got sold a while back and I understand support is still quite good, but the very oldest generation TKMs are difficult to repair as parts are no longer available for some of them. But that's not unique to TKM. King avionics are notorious for gas discharge display failures, as just one example. Any older avionics "could give out anytime", but they also could operate just fine for many years to come. You should be able to find someone that can bench test the TKM to see if that is the source of your problem before you spend a bunch of money unnecessarily.
 
if you buy a gtn650 and gtx335/345 you can get $750 garmin rebate for for the 650, $250 rebate for the GTX and a $500 FAA rebate for ASD-B. The rebate form is on Sarasota avionics website

The you need to be invoiced and have equipment serial numbers by December 22 and the mail in rebate must be post marked by the end of January 2017
 
bnt83 said:
if you buy a gtn650 and gtx335/345 you can get $750 garmin rebate for for the 650, $250 rebate for the GTX and a $500 FAA rebate for ASD-B. The rebate form is on Sarasota avionics website

The you need to be invoiced and have equipment serial numbers by December 22 and the mail in rebate must be post marked by the end of January 2017
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Save 1500 bucks off a 25k install. Fancy.
 
Labor costs are really tough to swallow, especially audio panels with internal intercoms.
 
Clark1961 said:
I know a hella good one in Alamosa, CO. :)

Expensive but things will be done right.
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For avionics done correctly, Mark Coleman is not that expensive (the shop in Alamosa). Can't put a price on quality work and quality customer service. In the past I borrowed the jalopy to drive back to Denver. There's a puddle jumper (https://www.boutiqueair.com/) that flies ALS-DEN for $54. Makes it not just affordable but practical to use Mark.

But this isn't helping the OP.

Really - try the filter first.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/el/noisefilters.html

Then you can shop around for avionics and not be held captive just because the shop is closer.
 
murphey said:
Really - try the filter first.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/el/noisefilters.html
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Much cheaper to pull all the wires off of the alternator (tie up and insulate) then go fly for a bit to see if the noise is still there. You've got a good two or three hours battery life and that ought to let you run a fairly exhaustive test.

Besides, those filters do nothing for static. They are meant to strip off alternator whine.

JIm
 
weirdjim said:
Much cheaper to pull all the wires off of the alternator (tie up and insulate) then go fly for a bit to see if the noise is still there. You've got a good two or three hours battery life and that ought to let you run a fairly exhaustive test.

Besides, those filters do nothing for static. They are meant to strip off alternator whine.

JIm
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Definitely a better and cheaper first step in diagnosis.
 
Here is my post from a previous thread:

We just priced what you are asking. We have an Arrow with a 6 pack and no radios. Actually we have Terra radios but they are junk.
New Garmin GTN650 with indicator installed $16,000
Garmin Audio panel installed $2000
Garmin GNC 255 secondary NAV COM with indicator installed $6000
Garmin GTX 345 transponder with ADS-B installed $6000
Obviously we are reviewing our options. The only problem I've found with installing "less expensive" GPS is that it still costs $3000-$4000 to get installed. This is what's killing GA in my opinion. I can buy an experimental airplane, all of these radios non-certified, and install myself for less than this.
 
lancie00 said:
I can buy an experimental airplane, all of these radios non-certified, and install myself for less than this.
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You ARE aware that you can install the radios yourself into your CessBeePipMoo are you not? It doesn't make a difference who INSTALLS them, it makes a difference into who SIGNS them off. Find an A who you can work with and with whom you can build a relationship based on your meticulous work and his/her meticulous oversight.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
You ARE aware that you can install the radios yourself into your CessBeePipMoo are you not? It doesn't make a difference who INSTALLS them, it makes a difference into who SIGNS them off. Find an A who you can work with and with whom you can build a relationship based on your meticulous work and his/her meticulous oversight.

Jim
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This is very true. I'm in the process of buying a new plane right now that doesn't currently have a GPS in it. Paying an avionics shop to install one isn't going to happen. So I picked up a used Apollo GX50 for $1000, including the necessary indicator and annuciators (eBay). It came with a harness, but it's too short, so I'll re-build it on a bench with the help of an A&P friend. Because it's a GPS only, there's no interface with the audio panel or radios. I'll install the rack with my A&P/IA's oversight, and he'll help finish the wiring, check it all out, and sign it off as a "minor mod." He'll then handle shepherding the AFMS through the FSDO. I expect my all-in cost for adding an IFR GPS (though non-WAAS) to be around $1500. A shop would probably charge at least twice that to do the labor. A little DIY is the way to keep this stuff reasonably priced.
 
bradg33 said:
This is very true. I'm in the process of buying a new plane right now that doesn't currently have a GPS in it. Paying an avionics shop to install one isn't going to happen. So I picked up a used Apollo GX50 for $1000, including the necessary indicator and annuciators (eBay). It came with a harness, but it's too short, so I'll re-build it on a bench with the help of an A&P friend. Because it's a GPS only, there's no interface with the audio panel or radios. I'll install the rack with my A&P/IA's oversight, and he'll help finish the wiring, check it all out, and sign it off as a "minor mod." He'll then handle shepherding the AFMS through the FSDO. I expect my all-in cost for adding an IFR GPS (though non-WAAS) to be around $1500. A shop would probably charge at least twice that to do the labor. A little DIY is the way to keep this stuff reasonably priced.
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Not just non-WAAS, but also non-approach capable. GX50 is en-route only. Good unit though!
 
weirdjim said:
AFMS??? For a GPS???? And why is the FSDO getting involved. The logbook entry should suffice.

Jim
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If it will be approved to be /G for IFR use, doesn't it always require a supplement for the flight manual?
 
My TKM had a horrible background noise. I noticed my lower nav volume was just barely turned up. I never use that crap. LOL! It took me a few flights to figure it out. I took my old ugly radio completely out, moved the TKM down and put a 696 up top. It looks great and works excellent. It didn't hardly cost anything. I fabricated a flat plate to mount the GPS on so it is still portable. Before and after pics. Michaels will fix that radio super cheap if there is a problem. You can pick up a used 696 for $800ish.panel 172 2.JPG panel 172.jpg
 
mtuomi said:
Not just non-WAAS, but also non-approach capable. GX50 is en-route only. Good unit though!
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The GX50 is approach-capable. The GX55 is the enroute-only version.
 
weirdjim said:
AFMS??? For a GPS???? And why is the FSDO getting involved. The logbook entry should suffice.

Jim
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An AFMS is ALWAYS required for an IFR installation. The FSDO has to get involved when the unit being installed isn't STC'd, as it's now a field approval. The non-WAAS 430s are the same way. Now, the WAAS 430s/530s, and the GTN series are all STC'd units with an AML (Approved Model List), so the FSDO rarely has to get involved because the AFMS is part of the STC.

Honestly, it's a bit concerning you don't know this, especially given that you're an A&P/IA.
 
weirdjim said:
You ARE aware that you can install the radios yourself into your CessBeePipMoo are you not? It doesn't make a difference who INSTALLS them, it makes a difference into who SIGNS them off. Find an A who you can work with and with whom you can build a relationship based on your meticulous work and his/her meticulous oversight.

Jim
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That's a nice thought but not all A&P's are willing to sign off on avionics. I've been looking and haven't found one yet.
 
bradg33 said:
An AFMS is ALWAYS required for an IFR installation. The FSDO has to get involved when the unit being installed isn't STC'd, as it's now a field approval. The non-WAAS 430s are the same way. Now, the WAAS 430s/530s, and the GTN series are all STC'd units with an AML (Approved Model List), so the FSDO rarely has to get involved because the AFMS is part of the STC.

Honestly, it's a bit concerning you don't know this, especially given that you're an A&P/IA.
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That's interesting, since about half the fleet never had a flight manual to begin with. How do you do a supplement to something that never existed? And I'm searching for the reg that points me to the FSDO getting involved. Care to point me? I'd appreciate it.

Jim
 
pigpenracing said:
Before and after pics. Michaels will fix that radio super cheap if there is a problem. You can pick up a used 696 for $800ish.
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My Lord, that's an Airmarc marker beacon up on top. I haven't seen one of those in damn near 40 years. Still works? You could probably get a good price for it from a museum :cheers:

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
That's interesting, since about half the fleet never had a flight manual to begin with. How do you do a supplement to something that never existed? And I'm searching for the reg that points me to the FSDO getting involved. Care to point me? I'd appreciate it.

Jim
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I'm not going to write you an instruction guide on this, but take a look at FAA Order 8300.16, AC 43-210A, and the Major Repair and Alteration Job Aid for FSDO inspectors. I don't think there's any room for legitimate debate that a field approval in the form of a FSDO-signed AFMS is required to install a non-STCd IFR GPS in a certified airplane. I'll certainly agree that you can install a GPS all day long, for VFR-only operations, on a logbook entry. But if you want to use it for IFR, it's a bigger process.
 
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