Is this legit???

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warthog1984

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Saw this on barnstormers. Are they doing what I think they're doing?


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WANTED TO BUY • Wanted paperwork for [plane model]. Must have reg, aw, data plate. Logs not need be complete
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They're trying to graft some airplane parts onto a serial number.
 
our pawnee has a log entry that boils down to "replaced fuselage, wings, and empennage with serviceable used parts. Installed engine model XX and propellor model YY in accordance with blah blah..."
 
bflynn said:
It's not legal to replace all the parts on an airplane?
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Kinda like the muffler and exhaust pipe 'repair' operations that will 'repair' your muffler for you...

What they send you is a brand new muffler with a 1" square piece cut off of your old one and welded to the new one.

Yeah...
repair...
that's the ticket!

I'm all for it!
 
timwinters said:
Kinda like the muffler and exhaust pipe 'repair' operations that will 'repair' your muffler for you...

What they send you is a brand new muffler with a 1" square piece cut off of your old one and welded to the new one.

Yeah...
repair...
that's the ticket!

I'm all for it!
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The semantics go further than GA...

Say we would have to get a foreign approval to alter a product but they are satisfied with FAA approval for repairs. <That seat cushion needs to be …..repaired via a different foam. >
 
bflynn said:
It's not legal to replace all the parts on an airplane?
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No but it's not legal to remove the dataplate from an airframe and rivet it on to another one. Of course, as mentioned, for something like a SuperCub you could buy an entire new fuselage frame and wings, replace the engine and every pulley, cable, hinge, board, rod, nut bolt and aluminum sheet but for that to be legal it would have to be completely revealed and documented in the logbook. It would be an extremely looong entry. :rolleyes2: You couldn't use an existing serviceable fuselage because that would have it's own dataplate which cannot be removed legally.
 
I really don't know, but my understanding was that when a plane was de-registered from the FAA DB that the data plate was to be removed permanently from the airframe. That's what the folks in the plane junk yard told me, and I believed them, but of course, they aren't the FAA. In the case of a plane being parted out, yet having a serviceable fuselage, that could be considered a component part. If someone had a gear up, and their wings, engine, prop, tail-feathers were good, they could technically buy a fuselage and gear asm and tack their bits onto that? Use the old or new dataplate?

Hmmm, interesting.
 
docmirror said:
I really don't know, but my understanding was that when a plane was de-registered from the FAA DB that the data plate was to be removed permanently from the airframe. That's what the folks in the plane junk yard told me, and I believed them, but of course, they aren't the FAA. In the case of a plane being parted out, yet having a serviceable fuselage, that could be considered a component part. If someone had a gear up, and their wings, engine, prop, tail-feathers were good, they could technically buy a fuselage and gear asm and tack their bits onto that? Use the old or new dataplate?

Hmmm, interesting.
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#1 You do not need ANY airmen certificate to operate a salvage yard so they may or may not be able to comment accurately on FAA regulations.
#2 Anything other than life limited components is pretty much fair game for re-installation as long as determined airworthy at installation.

Dataplates go missing all the time, not necessarily aircraft data plates, but serialized life limited components do. If the times and cycles cannot be determined they DON'T just trash the part. In most cases a new dataplate is acquired and the reported fleet leader's times and cycles are assigned.
 
Isn't this essentially what Basler has done with some DC3s?
 
So the consensus seems to be that they may be rebuilding a plane around a data plate (which is legal); not my initial impression that they were trying to swap paperwork / data plates between planes (which is not legal).

Thanks all.
 
Silvaire said:
No but it's not legal to remove the dataplate from an airframe and rivet it on to another one. Of course, as mentioned, for something like a SuperCub you could buy an entire new fuselage frame and wings, replace the engine and every pulley, cable, hinge, board, rod, nut bolt and aluminum sheet but for that to be legal it would have to be completely revealed and documented in the logbook. It would be an extremely looong entry. :rolleyes2: You couldn't use an existing serviceable fuselage because that would have it's own dataplate which cannot be removed legally.
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You aren't removing the dataplate from the airframe. You're removing the airframe from the dataplate. ;)
 
EdFred said:
You aren't removing the dataplate from the airframe. You're removing the airframe from the dataplate. ;)
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In good bureaucratic fashion, so far as the FAA is concerned, the air-frame is simply a mechanism for holding the ultimate flying mechanism: the data plate.
 
Absolutely. With no dataplate, it simply will not comply with the laws of physics.
 
Since the FAA issued an airworthiness certificate to the original airplane, I see their interest in prohibiting data plate transfers.
 
In essence it's something that fifty years ago was never envisioned. We're all supposed to be cruising around in flying cars now and there's supposed to be a colony on Mars but instead we're polishing up old data plates and reusing them. :rolleyes:
 
JeffDG said:
In good bureaucratic fashion, so far as the FAA is concerned, the air-frame is simply a mechanism for holding the ultimate flying mechanism: the data plate.
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Silvaire said:
No but it's not legal to remove the dataplate from an airframe and rivet it on to another one. Of course, as mentioned, for something like a SuperCub you could buy an entire new fuselage frame and wings, replace the engine and every pulley, cable, hinge, board, rod, nut bolt and aluminum sheet but for that to be legal it would have to be completely revealed and documented in the logbook. It would be an extremely looong entry. :rolleyes2: You couldn't use an existing serviceable fuselage because that would have it's own dataplate which cannot be removed legally.
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bflynn said:
It's not legal to replace all the parts on an airplane?
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ClimbnSink said:
Common with super cubs, every piece is probably available PMA'd from more then one source.
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JHW said:
our pawnee has a log entry that boils down to "replaced fuselage, wings, and empennage with serviceable used parts. Installed engine model XX and propellor model YY in accordance with blah blah..."
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warthog1984 said:
So the consensus seems to be that they may be rebuilding a plane around a data plate (which is legal); not my initial impression that they were trying to swap paperwork / data plates between planes (which is not legal).

Thanks all.
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Clip4 said:
Since the FAA issued an airworthiness certificate to the original airplane, I see their interest in prohibiting data plate transfers.
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As long as ALL work is documented properly, yes one could theoretically do this. However experience shows this not to be the case. More than likely someone has a collection of parts and an airframe without a data plate, so they are going to buy paperwork and "recreate" the airplane.

There's an AC or Order that discusses the process ( I don't feel like looking it up) but the bottom line is if you do this you should make sure all of the details are correct.

A few years back there was a group from the Northwest that were taking data plates from Bell 205's (certified) and placing them on UH-1 airframes ( non certified). They were caught (one was an FAA Inspector) and all went to the federal penitentiary.
 
Cubcrafters got it's start doing exactly this. Then it ran out of data plates (the existing cubs weren't crashing fast enough) so Cub Crafters started building them from scratch and LO AND BEHOLD a new airplane was born.
 
bartmc said:
Wouldn't it be cheaper just to buy an airworthy plane?
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Depends. The ones I've seen were rare antique or warbird airplanes that were virtually rebuilt from the ground up around the data plate. Difficult to put a price on something like that.
 
timwinters said:
Kinda like the muffler and exhaust pipe 'repair' operations that will 'repair' your muffler for you...

What they send you is a brand new muffler with a 1" square piece cut off of your old one and welded to the new one.

Yeah...
repair...
that's the ticket!

I'm all for it!
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That sounds like the "remodeling" jobs around here, where they keep one corner of a house intact so that they can keep the same property tax basis.
 
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Palmpilot said:
That sounds like the "remodeling" jobs around here, where they keep one corner of a house intact so that they can keep the same property tax basis.
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I did a couple of "remodels" here where the house was razed to the foundation, and a new house built on the existing subfloor.
 
Think for a minute about all the cubs, Taylorcrafts, etc still flying. Imagine how many, in the last 60-70 years were wrecked, left out in the weather to die, , etc. then rebuilt. ( not to mention numerous repairs never entered) someone needed a fuselage, or wings but didn't have the proper paperwork, data plate, etc. I think a lot of these old creates ( of which I have owned four over the years) were built back from basket cases. ) they were never intended to be flying 70 years later. My last one, a trophy winning taylorcraft , was rescued from a barn in the mid 90s. It had been involved in a fatal accident in western ny state in the pattern when a cub without a radio ran into it on a downwind. The cub pilot died, the tcraft made it to the ground barely. The rebuilder, a high school shop instructor, did a magnificent rebuild and won a trophy with it. It had the proper documentation and flew perfectly. I think some like this probably may have had data plates switched over the years but were better than when they left the factory.
 
Undoubtedly there have been revived basket cases and old airplanes where virtually every part has been replaced. But as far as someone having a hangar full of assorted parts and purchasing a data plate without a single piece of the original airplane to go with it and assembling an aircraft using that, although I'm sure it has happened, my guess would be that it's EXTREMELY rare.

As far as the legality goes, well are you looking for something that specifically says it is not legal or are you looking for something that specifically it says it is legal? Because I don't think you're going to find either. I doubt the rule makers ever considered such a contingency, not because they thought it unlikely but because it never crossed anyone's mind.
 
Silvaire said:
Undoubtedly there have been revived basket cases and old airplanes where virtually every part has been replaced. But as far as someone having a hangar full of assorted parts and purchasing a data plate without a single piece of the original airplane to go with it and assembling an aircraft using that, although I'm sure it has happened, my guess would be that it's EXTREMELY rare.

As far as the legality goes, well are you looking for something that specifically says it is not legal or are you looking for something that specifically it says it is legal? Because I don't think you're going to find either. I doubt the rule makers ever considered such a contingency, not because they thought it unlikely but because it never crossed anyone's mind.
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AC43-17

There have been several cases of removing dataplates from a wreck or derelict aircraft and placing on another airframe.

This guy was famous for doing data plate swaps and building helicopters from piles of scrap parts.
 
Silvaire said:
As far as the legality goes, well are you looking for something that specifically says it is not legal or are you looking for something that specifically it says it is legal?
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I wasn't worried about the legality, but legitimacy. The concern was whether some was buying paperwork to hide/falsify aircraft history (think auto mechanics "rolling back the clock"). However, it seems as if buying paperwork is not unheard of in "rebuild" situations and is at least sometimes legal, so I'm not inclined to sic the FAA on somebody who may have a legitimate reason for the unusual ad.
 
bartmc said:
Wouldn't it be cheaper just to buy an airworthy plane?
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If you are looking for say a taylorcraft BC12D, a champ, or say a Luscombe F model ( my favorite) there are prices all over the place but you must proceed with utmost caution. I learned the hard way that you may as well buy a real nice one rebuilt from the tailwheel forward or it will nickle and dime you to death. Some rebuilders really do magnificent work. I was fortunate to wait and grab a nice one each time. Way back, I learned a tough lesson on a 195 Cessna I bought which cost plenty to fix. If you've ever flown a taylorcraft or a champ, you realize they are a lot of fun, especially if the engine has been upgraded to a higher horsepower. I reverted to them when I had to fly light sport the last ten years.
 
Silvaire said:
No but it's not legal to remove the dataplate from an airframe and rivet it on to another one. Of course, as mentioned, for something like a SuperCub you could buy an entire new fuselage frame and wings, replace the engine and every pulley, cable, hinge, board, rod, nut bolt and aluminum sheet but for that to be legal it would have to be completely revealed and documented in the logbook. It would be an extremely looong entry. :rolleyes2: You couldn't use an existing serviceable fuselage because that would have it's own dataplate which cannot be removed legally.
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Nah. "On this date, I replaced the airframe I/A/W AC43.13-2b," and you're done. :rolleyes:

-Rich
 
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