Is there anything to worry about?

I don't believe so.....

One of the primary subsidies crop insurance. The majority of farming is done by family farmers who have inherited their land (or God forbid are making payments on it). Every year they hock everything to the Farm Bank for money to put in their crop (especially true of corn where you have to buy seed, you can't just bank some back from last year) and fertilize it. When the rain doesn't come or the bugs hit, they lose their crop. Right now, crop insurance pays off their debt. If you eliminate that, in 10 years time, there will be no family farmer anymore. Everyone will be a share cropper to big agribusiness like Cargil and ConAgra and they will get to increase their margin even more.

Don't confuse all farm subsidy with this Ethanol Fuel crap, not all subsidies are created equal. Many of these programs were instituted due to hard lessons learned during the Great Depression and Dust Bowl days. We'd domuch better selling the corn we use for ethanol right now to China since they are in the middle of their worst drought in history and for the first time in a long time are buying grain stocks on the outside market.
 
There is no down side, except the big oil companies and speculators won't be raping us at the pump.

Yeah because the "new energy" algae growers would never do that!

Bwahaha... Whatever.

"He who has the gold, makes the rules." If society is silly enough to force changes to "new" fuel sources, it will take about a nanosecond for the sociopaths that run large companies to figure out how to charge you more for them.

"Big evil oil companies" today, "big evil algae company" tomorrow. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
Yeah because the "new energy" algae growers would never do that!

Bwahaha... Whatever.

"He who has the gold, makes the rules." If society is silly enough to force changes to "new" fuel sources, it will take about a nanosecond for the sociopaths that run large companies to figure out how to charge you more for them.

"Big evil oil companies" today, "big evil algae company" tomorrow. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

When you flood the market with any commodity, the price will go down, and the big bad guys couldn't stop the algae from making O2, and using Co2.
 
Anything you can make more of isn't a commodity.

Switching to more plant-based fuels will just drive up the prices of fertilizer.

Those multi-national conglomerates that control the fertilizer trade (Potash, Mosaic) will then become the "big evil boogeyman", price-wise.

Kinda fun to look at who the investors are in those companies and then look at their political ties to those pushing "green" stuff, too.

As I said, "Meet the new boss... Same as the old boss."
 
Anything you can make more of isn't a commodity.

I wonder why they have corn and wheat on the commodity market?


Switching to more plant-based fuels will just drive up the prices of fertilizer.

Algae doesn't need any thing but sun light, water, and CO. no fertilizer required.

Those multi-national conglomerates that control the fertilizer trade (Potash, Mosaic) will then become the "big evil boogeyman", price-wise.

they won't be in the picture

Kinda fun to look at who the investors are in those companies and then look at their political ties to those pushing "green" stuff, too.

As I said, "Meet the new boss... Same as the old boss."

the new boss should be "we the people" not the congress.
 
When you flood the market with any commodity, the price will go down, and the big bad guys couldn't stop the algae from making O2, and using Co2.

The oil market is currently flooded with that commodity, yet the prices are still going up...
 
One of the primary subsidies crop insurance. The majority of farming is done by family farmers who have inherited their land (or God forbid are making payments on it). Every year they hock everything to the Farm Bank for money to put in their crop (especially true of corn where you have to buy seed, you can't just bank some back from last year) and fertilize it. When the rain doesn't come or the bugs hit, they lose their crop. Right now, crop insurance pays off their debt. If you eliminate that, in 10 years time, there will be no family farmer anymore. Everyone will be a share cropper to big agribusiness like Cargil and ConAgra and they will get to increase their margin even more.

Don't confuse all farm subsidy with this Ethanol Fuel crap, not all subsidies are created equal. Many of these programs were instituted due to hard lessons learned during the Great Depression and Dust Bowl days. We'd domuch better selling the corn we use for ethanol right now to China since they are in the middle of their worst drought in history and for the first time in a long time are buying grain stocks on the outside market.

You must realize that Algae farming is like no other, If the congress gave the folks the land on a homestead act, there would be no mortgage, if the congress would guarantee the start up loan, the folks could make it work.
 
You must realize that Algae farming is like no other, If the congress gave the folks the land on a homestead act, there would be no mortgage, if the congress would guarantee the start up loan, the folks could make it work.

I believe I've heard this song and dance before, and it was called the mortgage bubble. Okay, not exactly the same -- at least this thing has a chance of paying someone back, but if this is so good -- why can't they purchase the land and get normal loan backing by hocking themselves up to their eyeballs like every other start-up small business owner?

If the business plan worked... the loans would be flowing already -- wouldn't they?
 
You must realize that Algae farming is like no other, If the congress gave the folks the land on a homestead act, there would be no mortgage, if the congress would guarantee the start up loan, the folks could make it work.
So you've grown your algae. How are you going to process it and get it to market? Who is going to buy it? Are you going to put up a "gas" station on a corner of your farm?
 
So you've grown your algae. How are you going to process it and get it to market? Who is going to buy it? Are you going to put up a "gas" station on a corner of your farm?

Mark me words. If we ever derived a non-fossil energy source, it will be microbes. Algae can efficiently harness sunlight and build complex macromolecules, and there is no lignin barrier to overcome, unlike terrestrial plants.

Oils can be extracted from algae the same as from any vegetable material. And they can be genetically engineered to make hydrocarbons more amenable to our use.
 
Mark me words. If we ever derived a non-fossil energy source, it will be microbes. Algae can efficiently harness sunlight and build complex macromolecules, and there is no lignin barrier to overcome, unlike terrestrial plants.

Oils can be extracted from algae the same as from any vegetable material. And they can be genetically engineered to make hydrocarbons more amenable to our use.
I'm not doubting that algae can be used as a source of fuel. I'm doubting that the mom and pop algae farm will be competitive with large commercial algae farms run by the dreaded, "big business".
 
I'm not doubting that algae can be used as a source of fuel. I'm doubting that the mom and pop algae farm will be competitive with large commercial algae farms run by the dreaded, "big business".

Google search " Farmer co-op " you'll get 10,500,000 hits on farmer organizations.

co-ops work for other crops why not algae oil. and yes you can process the algae on site, and sell just the oil.

Maybe they can't compete on a quantity bases, but if they sell any at all, we would be closer to energy independence.
 
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co-ops work for other crops why not algae oil. and yes you can process the algae on site, and sell just the oil.
That's going to work really well since the main consumers of fuel would be in the suburbs or the city. I don't think they are going to be driving out to the farm to buy it. You still need a distribution method. You also need to be able to make and process it on a large scale to make it economical or mom and pop are going to go broke. All these things point to large corporations taking over even if starts out as a cottage industry.
 
So if this fuel is so much better economically, it should be able to pay for the distribution system easily, right?

(I'm down to just poking at this now. It went off the "most logical solution" rails a number of posts ago.)
 
So if this fuel is so much better economically, it should be able to pay for the distribution system easily, right?

(I'm down to just poking at this now. It went off the "most logical solution" rails a number of posts ago.)

What's not logical about putting people back to work on the land producing what we need most?

The ripple effect throughout the economy from manufacturing the equipment, to selling the product will be better than what we have now.

Competition between the algae growers and the major oil producers would set the prices much lower than now.
 
That's going to work really well since the main consumers of fuel would be in the suburbs or the city. I don't think they are going to be driving out to the farm to buy it. You still need a distribution method. You also need to be able to make and process it on a large scale to make it economical or mom and pop are going to go broke. All these things point to large corporations taking over even if starts out as a cottage industry.

For centuries farmers produced milk, which was distributed by co-ops to the cities, algae oil could be done the same way. When I was a kid on the Farm I had a milk route, I collected milk in cans at 15 farms and dumped it at the creamery, the farmer got a check every month for the milk they produced.

It is a proven business with a different product. What's a barrel of oil selling for these days? aprox 100.00 per 55 gallons. that's a pretty good check each month. ( 22,000 gallons per ac per year is the projected amount for algae) think about how many ac. the government owns in Tx. N.M. and Az.

how many Americans do you think would want a 1/4 section (165ac) to farm algae? 165acX22,000= 3,630,000 gallons / 55= 66,000 barrels X100.00.

can you say a pretty good living?
 
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What's not logical about putting people back to work on the land producing what we need most?

You say that like there's something stopping them from working now. If it's fiscally viable, go put 'em to work. Find investors, get it done. Government need not be involved at all.
 
You say that like there's something stopping them from working now. If it's fiscally viable, go put 'em to work. Find investors, get it done. Government need not be involved at all.
Govt IS involved! While you are speaking of govt involvement to get a market started up, I'm talking of how govt involvement has stifled other markets. What the govt wants, we get. Never mind if something else is more fiscally viable. Govt involvement interferes with the fiscally viable you mention.
 
Govt IS involved! While you are speaking of govt involvement to get a market started up, I'm talking of how govt involvement has stifled other markets. What the govt wants, we get. Never mind if something else is more fiscally viable. Govt involvement interferes with the fiscally viable you mention.

Government is involved, and it is in the pocket of big oil.
 
Govt IS involved! While you are speaking of govt involvement to get a market started up, I'm talking of how govt involvement has stifled other markets. What the govt wants, we get. Never mind if something else is more fiscally viable. Govt involvement interferes with the fiscally viable you mention.

True to some extent, but Govt. really hasn't "stopped" the big innovations of the last few decades. They get trampled by their constituents who want it.

Put a fuel that works "on the street" for the common man that saves them $2/gal... they won't care what Govt. thinks or wants... they'll beat a bee-line to your door.

I contend that algae can't do that. Can't even do $1/gal less. Not without subsidies. And we're already in agreement that once Govt. is involved it gets screwed up... so no Govt., no algae fuel.

Gasoline hits $7/gal... algae will take off on its own, along with every other alternative. (Of which CNG is the most likely to be picked up by the general public...)
 
You say that like there's something stopping them from working now.

Have you seen the unemployment figures this month? or year? I do not see any industry being set up, to put them back to work.



If it's fiscally viable, go put 'em to work. Find investors, get it done. Government need not be involved at all.

Government needs to kick off a program to get this started.
 
Government needs to kick off a program to get this started.

You keep saying that but you won't say why. If it's such a great idea, wouldn't private investors already be doing it?

What I believe you're trying to avoid saying is that it's a long-term money-loser, and therefore needs subsidies on the taxpayers backs.

I'm not interested in paying for someone else to build their algae company.

They can hock their house, their BMW, and/or their airplane and make a go of it if they're convinced it's the "next big thing". If they make it work, they'll get the house back, the BMW back, and probably a really nice jet.
 
You keep saying that but you won't say why. If it's such a great idea, wouldn't private investors already be doing it?

Can you say free land? Big business will stall until the price is well worth their efforts to support the big guy at the top of the business ladder.

What I believe you're trying to avoid saying is that it's a long-term money-loser, and therefore needs subsidies on the taxpayers backs.

In long term it means a completely new industry, and will require folks like you to get on board with idea of being energy Independent.

I'm not interested in paying for someone else to build their algae company.

You'd rather continue to pay the Arabs? did you think this would be free? no this isn't about free oil, you are still going to pay for energy.

They can hock their house, their BMW, and/or their airplane and make a go of it if they're convinced it's the "next big thing". If they make it work, they'll get the house back, the BMW back, and probably a really nice jet.

I drove past a food bank today in Mount Vernon Wa. and didn't see a single big ticket item there, but I did see 300 common folks standing in line. You don't seem to grasp the concept that 45% of America is out of work. out of benefits, out of their house, and hungry.
 
I drove past a food bank today in Mount Vernon Wa. and didn't see a single big ticket item there, but I did see 300 common folks standing in line. You don't seem to grasp the concept that 45% of America is out of work. out of benefits, out of their house, and hungry.

Okay, now I know we've gone over the cliff into la-la land. 10-15% of America, I'd agree. 45%? Hardly. We're not even close to that. We didn't even hit 40% unemployment during the peak of the Great Depression.

Haven't been to Mt. Vernon, so I looked it up... tulips, eh? Interesting. What else do they do there? Are there other viable growth businesses? If not, are people moving away? No growth, can't have population growth either... kinda a natural number problem.

Thus, is Urbanization hurting them? Seems like another small town disappearing as a work/growth center, but that's been going on with Urbanization towards big cities since the early 90's or even 80's.

Well documented, strange phenomenon that us humans seem to be packing ourselves in like sardines to giant "resource centers".

I see it was voted "nicest small town in the U.S." in 1998. Would it still get that? What happened?

Anyway... the population was 31,743 at the 2010 census. 1% of the town's population was in the line. Just had to check to see HOW crazy the comments were.

You're off by a pretty big margin there.

So, are we going to have a rational discussion here, or are you going to continue to be crazy... 'cause I'm all stocked up on crazy 'round here.

Would people from that area move to the middle of the Arizona desert to farm it if offered the opportunity? I kinda doubt it... maybe some percentage, but most would stand in that line. Human nature. "This is my home."

So let's also get real about the algae thing. How many jobs would there be even if it had government backing in the form of 100% financing, which is still completely wrong... banks can make those loans, after reviewing the risk/reward.

Anyway...

With mechanized farming, it doesn't take all that many humans to handle a very large crop. So you're going to put "all of America" to work, exactly how?

Let's get real here. Government subsidies aren't magic unicorns of "Hope and Change".

People have to want to change, and that probably includes leaving the little hamlet there in Washington State and moving somewhere where it's hot, dry, dusty, and they work from sun-up to sun-down... and I just don't see our current population being very willing to do much of that kind of thing, even if you gave them 100% financing to make the move. Only a few brave/hearty souls would even take the Government up on that one.

The country's been in a recession. This time it was brought about by wild speculation and over-extending ourselves with debt. Whether or not we can recover probably depends on one critical thing: Being able to think clearly about what makes money and what doesn't and applying it to our personal business.

If algae or ANY alternative energy is truly cheaper, there are people with money who'd finance it. They'd say, "Look... I can run this business, it'll have X revenue, with which I can pay X people to do the jobs required, and I'll make Y profit."

I guarantee you they've already DONE that math because they are the ones who did NOT overextend themselves with debt, and they've already crunched the numbers and figured out that it doesn't work -- or there'd be construction going on in the desert right now. ... Or wherever you grow that stuff.

Other than trying to coerce someone into agreeing that they should pay up in the form of higher taxes for a plan that can't possibly "put the country to work" and saying that 1/2 the County is jobless when no reasonable statistics even from the biggest nay-sayers backs that up with any facts...

You got any sources to cite on any of this who don't have backgrounds selling things in multilevel-marketing ponzi schemes?
 
For centuries farmers produced milk, which was distributed by co-ops to the cities, algae oil could be done the same way. When I was a kid on the Farm I had a milk route, I collected milk in cans at 15 farms and dumped it at the creamery, the farmer got a check every month for the milk they produced.
Guessing that was quite a while ago. I don't think that's the way the milk market works these days.
 
Okay, now I know we've gone over the cliff into la-la land. 10-15% of America, I'd agree. 45%? Hardly. We're not even close to that. We didn't even hit 40% unemployment during the peak of the Great Depression.

You need to do your home work a little better. Come out into the real world and realize we are in big trouble.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/02/09/real-unemployment-number/

When you realize the government numbers are only those who are collecting benefits, and those benefits have run out on the vast majority. it really is close to 40% of employable Americans that are not working.

Most of the 300 folks in line today are farm workers, and the farmers are not planting this year due to the cost of fuel.

You need to raise your eyes above the Government BS and start thinking for your self. the real world is out there and it's hurting. Yet you think we can give up our expensive toys and every thing will be OK.
 
Guessing that was quite a while ago. I don't think that's the way the milk market works these days.
Remove the govt subsidies and let's see what model develops. And this raises an important point for the debate 'tween DenverPilot and Tom D;

DenverPilot has a valid point about not wanting more taxpayer subsidies. But in the current environment, existing subsidies to other markets (which would compete with alternative fuel market) represent barriers to the viability of that new market. Let's level the playing field.
 
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Remove the govt subsidies and let's see what model develops. And this raises an important point for the debate 'tween DenverPilot and Tom D;

DenverPilot has a valid point about not wanting more taxpayer subsidies. But in the current environment, existing subsidies to other markets (which would compete with alternative fuel market) represent barriers to the viability of that new market. Let's level the playing field.

Subsidies are but one tool used by the socialists, to make every one the same.

problem is,,,,,,, we are out of money.
 
Remove the govt subsidies and let's see what model develops. And this raises an important point for the debate 'tween DenverPilot and Tom D;

DenverPilot has a valid point about not wanting more taxpayer subsidies. But in the current environment, existing subsidies to other markets (which would compete with alternative fuel market) represent barriers to the viability of that new market. Let's level the playing field.
It's difficult to find information that is not propaganda in nature. However I came up with this from the WSJ.

Virtually all energy is subsidized. Fossil fuels, which provide about 80% of total global energy, have enjoyed favorable tax breaks and other incentives for decades. The International Energy Agency estimates that fossil-fuel subsidies in developing countries -- government money to reduce the price of energy -- totaled $310 billion in 2007, the most recent year for which the IEA has statistics. Last fall, the Group of 20 leading economies called for phasing out fossil-fuel subsidies world-wide.

Yet for every unit of energy renewable energy produces, it is often subsidized more heavily than fossil fuel. Government spending and price supports accounted for about one-third of the roughly $145 billion invested world-wide in clean energy in 2009, New Energy Finance estimates. Though renewable energy gets fewer subsidy dollars than the IEA says fossil fuels receive, the price supports are covering a larger portion of renewable energy firms' costs.

http://online.wsj.com/article/power_shift.html

NA-BD272A_POWER_NS_20100107233607.gif
 
Subsidies are but one tool used by the socialists, to make every one the same.

problem is,,,,,,, we are out of money.
Let me clear...I am opposed to govt subsidies. My point was to remove subsidies to existing industry because they act as de facto barriers to evolving industry. It is the definition of evolving markets to become competition to the entrenched industry.
 
RE: response to post #154.

Some quick thoughts. One, I would like to see a price breakdown of the actual cost per unit of the various energy sources. Included should be subsidies by subsidizing entity. Parse it down from the too nebulous "global" to at least the regional level.

Two, I wonder if comparing of various alt energy to Fossil Fuel (FF) based energy is accurate. The reason is FF industry got it's start in a different time. The perspective is it grew naturally as the need grew. It was plentiful and it was cheap. The opposite could be said of other energy sources. They are called alternate specifically because they are trying to replace the FF model. The alt fuels industries are being forced into being as opposed to a somewhat organic growth which is the FF(pun not intended).
 
Some quick thoughts. One, I would like to see a price breakdown of the actual cost per unit of the various energy sources. Included should be subsidies by subsidizing entity. Parse it down from the too nebulous "global" to at least the regional level.
Good luck in your search. :D
 
Subsidies are but one tool used by the socialists, to make every one the same.

problem is,,,,,,, we are out of money.
Weren't you talking about subsidies for the algae farmers? Isn't giving people land a subsidy of a sort?
 
and they are not wiling to work for it by growing it themselves.

Not everyone needs to grow their own food, but if the government stopped giving subsituities the mom and pop farmers could compete in a level market they could survive. and the price of food would drop.

Ummmmm. No.

Basic economics, under the topic "Economies of scale." If the family farms weren't propped up by subsidies, they'd disappear in about 2.5 weeks.
 
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