Is There a True 6 Person + Luggage Light Twin?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Ken H, Aug 25, 2019.

  1. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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    Hello there! I'm an airline pilot that has reentered the general aviation world after a 30+ year break. I have a civilian background with Part 135 time in Aztec, Chieftain, 206, 402... but that was over 30 years ago :eek:.

    Now that I'm re-qualified to rent a 172 at a local school, my wife and I are talking about something larger. Our dream mission would be to fly 6 adults (about 930 lbs) and bags about 500nm to the beach.

    I really love the layout of the Cherokee 6, but it's a little shy on useful load and the max zero fuel weight. So I started looking at twins. The Seneca II looks great, but same problem; useful load would require a lot of air in the tanks and a fuel stop.

    An Aztec E or F (which I really enjoyed flying) looks promising. I noticed there are a few Aztec owners here. It seems to have the highest useful load of anything I've looked at (nearly 2000 lbs - is it really that high?). Would it work for my mission? Perhaps more important, how's the SE performance at max gross? [Just because I could, doesn't mean I should]

    I suspect my mission might need a Navajo, which isn't going to happen. Too expensive to buy, maintain, and fly. It would end up staying in the hangar instead of going on hamburger runs and fly-ins.

    Is there a recip single or light twin that I'm forgetting to consider?

    I'm starting to think we need to reel in our expectations and think about the Cherokee 6 with 4 souls + baggage. It seems perfectly suited for that - but we hate to leave the older kids or parents on the ground.:(

    Thanks!
    Ken
     
  2. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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  3. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    An Aztec would be fine and fit your mission. Can do 500 nm easily non stop. There’s an STC to extend the aft baggage which will give you ridiculous room for bags. Will fit 6 comfortably.

    D, E, or F would do the job fine.
     
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  4. IK04

    IK04 Pattern Altitude

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    Too bad the Cessna 207, Stationair 8 is too rare. They keep crashing the few that are left in Alaska.

    One of my favorite heavy haulers!
     
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  5. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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    Thank you! I was playing with the numbers from various online sources and was surprised that it could haul so much with full tanks. I'm sort of stumped why other twins can't come close.
     
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  6. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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    I LOVED my time flying the 206 for the forestry department. One of my favorite airplanes.
     
  7. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down PoA Supporter

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    It isn’t nicknamed the AzTruck for no reason. You’ve found the hauler in the fleet. It won’t get your group there too fast. Seneca also has similar useful load, and needs more runway and will go faster.

    Unless you want to talk cabin class stuff. I assume you’re not looking to go to something like the Cessna 414.
     
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  8. ktup-flyer

    ktup-flyer En-Route

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    Get a T-Bone if you want something cool that will carry a lot :cool:
     
  9. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Yes, it really is nearly 2000 lbs.
    And yes, an Aztec will do your mission.
    I've done 1200 nm each way to Oshkosh with 5 adult males and an 11 year old boy + luggage with 3 hour legs at 160 kts TAS.

    But most all of the piston twins are pretty aenemic on a single engine at gross weight. Turbochargers might help in that regard, depending on where you are located. I am based at 4000 ASL and generally fly my non-turbo plane light if I am headed across the Rockies to the west coast. The single engine service ceiling is dramatically influenced by the load.

    You may also want to consider a 310. Also a roomy cabin, high useful load, the 520 powered ones are faster than an Aztec, and the thinner Cessna wing has a higher ceiling. Gear is not as robust as an Aztec, and requires close attention to rigging.

    A true 6-place Baron might also be a consideration, but it'll go at a significant premium to an Aztec or most 310s. But, personally, I see little reason to own a twin for the dubious privilege of cramming oneself into a Bonanza fuselage.

    The Cherokee Six, and its various more contemporary derivatives, are excellent airplanes for what they can lift and move with decent cabin space. But I would never consider trading my Aztec for one.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
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  10. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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    I think the 414 is a little too much plane for us. I'm guessing pressurized = more maint cost.
     
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  11. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    And to the OP, welcome to PoA!
     
  12. bradg33

    bradg33 Pattern Altitude

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    My Twin Bonanza has 6 seats and has a 1200lb payload with full fuel. Not terribly difficult to find a Twin Bonanza that has the ability to very comfortably haul 6 people 500+ miles with all the bags you can carry.
     
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  13. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Administrator Management Council Member

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    Frankly if the 6 pax mission is frequent, I'd try to go for the PA32/PA34 route. That's a people pleasing airframe.

    I love that T-bone owners are the hammer that sees the world as a nail. :D As if the world wants to run 30gph through ancient geared lycosaurs while doing Skylane speeds.
     
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  14. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well, the Aztec's wing (airfoil, specifically) is designed to haul a heavy load. It develops a lot of lift and a lot of drag. Most of the others were designed with more of an eye toward speed than load hauling.

    I would recommend taking a look at the 310 as well. Useful loads are very good for the class, and it'll be 10-20% faster than an Aztec. I did some research on them earlier this year and did a brain dump of that here: All about Cessna 310s
     
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  15. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    The PA-34 doesn't have the useful load to haul six adults with baggage over any distance.
    I researched them pretty intensively when I was shopping for a twin, and that was one reason I dismissed them. But that rear pax door; I wish the Aztec had one.
     
  16. 172sailor

    172sailor Filing Flight Plan

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  17. BarryCooper

    BarryCooper Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'll second the PA34 w/full fuel =4 adults max
     
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  18. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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    Thanks! I'll take a look at them.
     
  19. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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    That's what I'm finding. Really nice PA-34s also have a lot of extras (like AC) that use up a couple hundred pounds of payload.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
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  20. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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    Thank you! I typically dislike pilot message boards. I have spent several hours here reading posts and have enjoyed learning. Nice vibe.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
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  21. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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    Really nice 310 write-up. Thank you! I'll take a close look at them on Trade-A-Plane. The fuel management makes my head spin!
     
  22. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

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    I'm not seeing how a 310 meets the useful load requirement here.
     
  23. Rein Hart

    Rein Hart Pre-takeoff checklist

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    For singles, also consider the Piper Malibu PA-46 N/A. Good pressurizing system.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
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  24. Cluemeister

    Cluemeister Line Up and Wait

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    You sure you've been reading POA?

    :D
     
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  25. wayne

    wayne Pattern Altitude

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    I've flown a Baron 58 the past few years with just over 1,800 lbs of useful load. With 930 in the plane you could have just over 870 lbs of fuel in it. That will get you well past 500 nm with reserves; quickie napkin math says ~700 nm (no wind) with 50 min of fuel remaining.

    A Cessna 310R should work well too. I've seen some of them listed with ~2,000 lbs of useful load. A little harder to load, but a wider cabin and wing lockers.
     
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  26. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    When I think light twin, I think 4 people plus bags. 6 place plus bags and fuel I think cabin class.
     
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  27. James_Dean

    James_Dean Pattern Altitude

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    My 310R had a useful load of 2000 lbs. It could take a 1000 lbs a 1000 miles.
     
  28. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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  29. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    keep in mind....this plane is larger than the standard Tee hangar....and ramp fees will apply in many places.
     
  30. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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    Too pricey and the useful load is on the low side.
     
  31. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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    How about a C-210? Anyone have experience with them? They have close to 2000 useful load and 6 seats. Is there room behind the backseats for baggage?
     
  32. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    The DA62 won't have quite as much as an AzTruck.. but with a 1,300 nm range you'd rarely be full tanks.. some pro's

    -modern
    -decently fast
    -roomy (7 seats)
    -14 gph COMBINED, and that's for good power... you can cruise at as little as 12 gph... you'll be burning DOUBLE that in the AzTruck
    -push button Fadec operation
    -JetA burning.. often cheaper
    -around 1,100 lbs left for passengers, etc. with full tanks.. but assuming you're flying 600 nm (not 1,300) you can go with 50 gallons, instead of 86, and have 1,300 lbs left over.. that's plenty for 6 passengers
    -single engine performance is very good

    *numbers above are napkin math
     
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  33. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    might work if the rear two are small kids...with minimal bags. The PA32 is hard to beat when it comes to cabin comfort and baggage space. That forward baggage compartment is a winner.
     
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  34. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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    The 2 kids in the back are early teens, but that won't last long!
     
  35. Z06_Mir

    Z06_Mir Pattern Altitude

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    While true I would feel bad for the two adults in the back seats. We have plenty of load capability but took out one of the rear seats to give the one person more room and/or more room for bags/things/furniture. The useful load can do it certainly but it just wouldn't be comfortable IMO.
     
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  36. Ken H

    Ken H Pre-Flight

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    Aztec owner/operators, most of the ads I see don't include empty weight & max gross weight for calculating useful load. I can look up the MGW. What are your empty weights?
    @GRG55 , @Ted DuPuis
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  37. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    that ain't gonna work....IMHO.

    you need to listen to EGGMAN.....he just went thru this.
     
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  38. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Have you sat in [the very back seat of] one? It's a great, fast plane for sure.. but it's really a 4 person plane from a comfort perspective. The third row is basically a stool in the baggage compartment.

    There is a classic old brochure comparing a 210, Bonanza, and Piper that showed the interior with seats for 6.. the dude in the back of the 210 was basically hunched over in the "brace for impact" position in order to fit. I cannot find the photo not but I seem to recall @Pilawt posted it.. many moons ago
     
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  39. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    I really hope someone can find that old brochure. Our club has a 210 and to me it feels like a beefy 182.. with a tiny folding chair stuck in the back so they can sat it "seats 6" .. it's like the 3rd row on many small SUVs... big enough for really nobody.

    One of the most comfortable GA plane I've ever sat in was the Saratoga / Lance / Six.. it just feels spacious, like getting into a Suburban..
     
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  40. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    It's been way too long for me to remember.
     
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