Is there a limit on number of passengers in an airplane?

rhvpilot

rhvpilot

Pre-takeoff checklist
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RHV PILOT
Please excuse my ignorance.
Is it legal to put 6 people (2 adults and 4 kids) in a 4 seater airplane.
I appreciate the input.

Thanks
 
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Stewartb said:
Good question. I recall the post-accident chatter after a bunch of kids died in a PC-12 and remembered the FAA was going to revise the regs but never thought about it until you asked. FYI-

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2011/July/6/FAA-clarifies-GA-seat-belt-guidance

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?rgn=div8&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.2.4.4
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Thanks for the links

It doesn't seem to be exactly clear. ( I may have read incorrectly)

it says pilot must inform passengers to use safety belt.
I am not sure if it means, only one passenger per seat? or if the one person can sit on the floor?

Ta
 
rhvpilot said:
Thanks for the links

It doesn't seem to be exactly clear. ( I may have read incorrectly)

it says pilot must inform passengers to use safety belt.
I am not sure if it means, only one passenger per seat? or if the one person can sit on the floor?

Ta
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It is a wee bit ambiguous. I guess it's up to you to decide whether the requirement means one person per seat and restraint and that no other part of the CFR prohibits more than one child per seat. I think "properly secured" is the key. I doubt any belt manufacturer or airframe manufacturer would testify that two kids per seat is proper when they're called upon to testify. Short of that I doubt anyone will pay much attention. Interesting topic.

(3) Except as provided in this paragraph, each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing.
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I thought it was based on the number of seat belts.

There are TB20s that are technically 5 seaters because they have a middle belt even though the configuration is identical to the 4 seater that does not have the middle belt.

Either way I wouldn't put someone in the plane that couldn't be strapped in with their own dedicated restraint.
 
Hmmm....let me ask my college self:

phone-booth-st-marys2-thumb-200x338-5265.jpg


23. The answer is 23.
 
The regulation may seem ambiguous, but there's an FAA legal interpretation on point. Basically, unless the seat belt is designed for more than one person (like some of the old planes with a lap belt which goes across both rear seats), each person must have their own seat/belt. The only exceptions are parachutists being carried up for a jump or infants under 2 years old being held by an adult.
 
...and each person must be in an approved seat or berth (unless they're sitting on the floor to do parachute jumps).

Furhter, the certification limitations of the aircraft spell out the maximum number of people on board (possibly for the category of the operation). For example, planes operating in the utility category, even if they have more seats, are limited to two occupants.
 
One of my instructors and I were discussing some of the "gray" areas of flying one day and about some of them he commented "it only matters after the crash"
 
rhvpilot said:
Please excuse my ignorance.
Is it legal to put 6 people (2 adults and 4 kids) in a 4 seater airplane.
I appreciate the input.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I think you could max out at 7 in a 4 seater with 3 lap babies, there will be a weight question still to answer though.
 
jfrye01 said:
8 if you're a bold PIC wishing for a Darwin award...;)
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I forget the wording in the American rules, so it may not apply, but I'm pretty sure it was specifically mentioned in the Aussie rules.:rolleyes: That one would have to mention it is scary.
 
FWIW I never put lap children in the front seat. That is asking for trouble IMO, and against our GOM (for good reason)
 
Henning said:
Lap children in general is asking for trouble, yet they are legal.:dunno:
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I agree, but they are unavoidable in my line of work. I do my part to be legal and as safe as I can, but if I'm going down hard I sure hope there aren't any lap children on the plane.
 
DavidWhite said:
I agree, but they are unavoidable in my line of work. I do my part to be legal and as safe as I can, but if I'm going down hard I sure hope there aren't any lap children on the plane.
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It would be nice if there was approved chest harness, though I bet a good papoose sling thing would be better than nothing.
 
I'm surprised nobody had brought up the issue of insurance. Mine has a limit of 4 occupants in my 4 seat plane.
 
Henning said:
It would be nice if there was approved chest harness, though I bet a good papoose sling thing would be better than nothing.
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Thankfully most do have the papoose sling thing. Those things actually would work pretty well I imagine provided its not a super hard hit.
 
RHV, quite aside from the legalities, this has BAD IDEA written all over it.

If this is a one time thing, you need one more adult and two trips (or six seats on a purple 737). If it's not a one time thing, you need a six seat airplane.
 
Henning said:
It would be nice if there was approved chest harness, though I bet a good papoose sling thing would be better than nothing.
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Kids on laps are dangerous to the kid whether in a snugly or not. You can find lots of supporting information in car crash tests. That's precisely why automotive car seats are a requirement, not an option. I believe the FAA allows lap kids because the public would go ballistic if a one year-old had to buy a full fare on an commercial flight. Even though it makes the most sense from a safety standpoint.

http://carseatblog.com/16971/lap-babies-on-airplane-a-warning-all-parents-must-see/
 
Stewartb said:
Kids on laps are dangerous to the kid whether in a snugly or not. You can find lots of supporting information in car crash tests. That's precisely why automotive car seats are a requirement, not an option. I believe the FAA allows lap kids because the public would go ballistic if a one year-old had to buy a full fare on an commercial flight. Even though it makes the most sense from a safety standpoint.

http://carseatblog.com/16971/lap-babies-on-airplane-a-warning-all-parents-must-see/
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I agree, and am not a fan of lap babies, I can't recall hauling one. I did bring my SIL and newborn home which she nursed along the way, but we had a car seat/bassinet thing secured for TO & Landing or an emergency. Flown kids two in a belt before a few times.
 
MAKG1 said:
RHV, quite aside from the legalities, this has BAD IDEA written all over it.

If this is a one time thing, you need one more adult and two trips (or six seats on a purple 737). If it's not a one time thing, you need a six seat airplane.
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Mack G
I m actively searching for a 6 seater. May get one soon
 
Speaking only for myself....
My C-180 was factory equipped with 6 seats. When I bought it the 3rd row seat was in it but clearly hadn't seen much use. I removed it and gave it away. There was no way I'd ever put anyone in that seat position because there's no way anyone back there could get out of the airplane quickly in an emergency. So it goes with 3rd seat conversions in Supercubs, too. And as much as I used to want a 206? I wouldn't own one without a Wipair passenger door mod. In fact when I built my very nice PA-12 it had doors on both sides. An exit plan is a big deal to me.

Just my thoughts for the day. Worth precisely what you paid.
 
Henning said:
I think you could max out at 7 in a 4 seater with 3 lap babies, there will be a weight question still to answer though.
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I think that would depend on the airplane, and W/B considerations.

Family of six, plus dog, in a V-77 was an everyday occurance for us, With a whole summers worth of bags. IIRC it was classified as a 4 seater.
But that's been a day or two ago.
 
Stewartb said:
Kids on laps are dangerous to the kid whether in a snugly or not. You can find lots of supporting information in car crash tests. That's precisely why automotive car seats are a requirement, not an option. I believe the FAA allows lap kids because the public would go ballistic if a one year-old had to buy a full fare on an commercial flight. Even though it makes the most sense from a safety standpoint.



http://carseatblog.com/16971/lap-babies-on-airplane-a-warning-all-parents-must-see/
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No kidding. There was a 206 crash up in Alaska a few years ago. IIRC all the adults survived, but a baby was thrown forward and then crushed to death by all the lumber they had loaded.
 
Henning said:
Is it the same one as for the 150 they use across the line?
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If you're asking whether the seat for the 4-seaters is the same as the seat for the 150, I think the answer is "no", and probably because the attachment points are different, although I think one seat fits both 150 and 152. I believe the seats for the 172 and 182 are also different from each other for the same reason. But that's relying on the memory of things I only glanced at once may years ago -- the Cessna Pilots Association would probably be the best source for complete and reliable information on these options.
 
bluerooster said:
I think that would depend on the airplane, and W/B considerations.

Family of six, plus dog, in a V-77 was an everyday occurance for us, With a whole summers worth of bags. IIRC it was classified as a 4 seater.
But that's been a day or two ago.
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My wife has agreed to sit on the floor between front and back seats, one kid could go front seat and 3 in the back seat. will still have about 4 hours of fuel.

The main question is the legal part though. I wish there was a straight answer: confused2: .
 
rhvpilot said:
My wife has agreed to sit on the floor between front and back seats, one kid could go front seat and 3 in the back seat. will still have about 4 hours of fuel.

The main question is the legal part though. I wish there was a straight answer: confused2: .
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The legal part is straight forward. Just apply ages, sizes, and seat belts as spelled out in the FARs.
 
rhvpilot said:
My wife has agreed to sit on the floor between front and back seats, one kid could go front seat and 3 in the back seat. will still have about 4 hours of fuel.

The main question is the legal part though. I wish there was a straight answer: confused2: .
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Your wife must be tiny. I can barely fit my flight bag behind the passenger seat in a 182, and it's not a big bag.

Passengers must wear seat belts for taxi, takeoff, and landing, and occupy an "approved berth." How are you going to do that on the floor?
 
Fearless Tower said:
No kidding. There was a 206 crash up in Alaska a few years ago. IIRC all the adults survived, but a baby was thrown forward and then crushed to death by all the lumber they had loaded.
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I believe I know the accident you refer to, and that is not what happened. The young child was unable to get out on his own and rescuers were unable to reach him even though a couple of them were seriously burned trying. Fire consumed that airplane very rapidly. That plane crashed shortly after takeoff and hit an abandoned old house on a main street in Anchorage during a heavy traffic time. Lots of people were there to help. It wasn't enough.

http://akfatal.net/Cavner 06-01-10.htm
 
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