Is there a light sport plane that is IFR capable?
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bluesideup
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bluesideup
>>Is there a light sport plane that is IFR capable?<<
Yes, some Evektors,..
Yes, some Evektors,..
?? I am not quite sure I understand but the answer is likely, yes.
Yes. There are a bunch of type certificated light sports that just need the appropriate 91.205 equipment to be legal in IFR.
The same is likely true of qualifying Experimentals. Most op lims only require 91.205 compliance.
The same is likely true of qualifying Experimentals. Most op lims only require 91.205 compliance.
SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
Why would the sport pilot fly it NORDO if it has radios? Going silent when equipped is a rather db thing to do in my opinion.
JOhnH
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Because my hearing is not good enough to depend on to hear ATC or other traffic, even with the most modern hearing aids.
If I can't fly NORDO, then I can't fly and will have to continue to fly right seat with my IFR rated wife.
JOhnH
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What part did I not make clear and I will explain further.
SkyDog58
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Ah. That makes sense. Sorry if my response seemed insensitive. The funny thing is that I wear hearing aids but the fact that hearing loss is what was driving your question did not even occur to me.
There are a few SLSAs legal to fly IFR. But there are a lot of LSA compliant older aircraft that can be flown IFR.
Any aircraft may be flown NORDO, as long as you're VFR in airspace not requiring ATC communications.
Any aircraft may be flown NORDO, as long as you're VFR in airspace not requiring ATC communications.
JOhnH
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I didn't think it seemed insensitive at all. I just figured I didn't explain the situation well enough.
JOhnH
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Yeah, but can that same aircraft be flown in IMC conditions by an instrument rated pilot?
To give context, my wife is an an instrument rated pilot with around 1,400 hours; mostly in our Bonanza. I always fly right seat.
I on the other hand am profoundly hard of hearing. With really good hearing aids, I am functional in social settings, but I can't hear well enough to feel confident communicating on the radio with ATC or other aircraft. I'd rather go NORDO than misunderstand half the communications. I'd like an airplane that we can both fly.
bluesideup
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Hi.
I think you just did in post #5.
It's difficult to think, and take into account, all the reasons why some people would ask some questions.
Do any of the phone amps work if you place them in your headset? I had a pilot that used one it was about 3 in round and 1 in deep that he would put against the speaker inside the headset and did a great job of amplification, I could hear it from my seat a couple of feet away?
I think you just did in post #5.
It's difficult to think, and take into account, all the reasons why some people would ask some questions.
Do any of the phone amps work if you place them in your headset? I had a pilot that used one it was about 3 in round and 1 in deep that he would put against the speaker inside the headset and did a great job of amplification, I could hear it from my seat a couple of feet away?
MarkH
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Any Sport pilot eligible certified aircraft can do that (if properly equipped).
The FAA published a list
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/media/existingmodels.pdf
The FAA published a list
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/media/existingmodels.pdf
FastEddieB
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In case it’s relevant, my E-LSA Limitations say this:
I assume that’s boilerplate for E-LSA Operating Limitations, and approve IFR operations if appropriately equipped.
I assume that’s boilerplate for E-LSA Operating Limitations, and approve IFR operations if appropriately equipped.
SkyDog58
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In case it’s relevant, my E-LSA Limitations say this:
I assume that’s boilerplate for E-LSA Operating Limitations, and approve IFR operations if appropriately equipped.
Yep.
#10 is a typical Phase 1 limitation for most experimental aircraft whether it be EAB, ELSA, Exhibition, etc. After Phase 1, installed equipment determines what is allowed as per #11.
gacoon
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The majority of LSA that can be flown ifr are either experimental or certificated airplanes - these must be equipped appropriately per FAR 91.205. Many LSA have operating restrictions that limit them to VFR. So your answer-is it depends.
Clip4
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Why would you want an LSA that is IFR? Even if you have a instrument rating you can’t fly IFR on just a drivers license.
Daleandee
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RingLaserGyroSandwich
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The main reason I can think of is because LSAs are much cheaper than similarly aged standard+IFR aircraft. It appeals to me too although they may bounce around a lot.
Break break.
If you switch an SLSA to ELSA, since you don’t have the EAB reason to point to for the airplane being experimental, what reason do you give (e.g., research, air shows)? Does this cause more restrictions than an EAB?
CaptainXap
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You could always keep the Bonanza for fast cross country flying, and get an ultralight for times when you just want to noodle around in the sky by yourself.
Salty
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You could read his posts to understand why he wants this. Nah.
FastEddieB
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You don’t need to supply a reason. The only caveat is the S-LSA must be inspected during the conversion process to confirm no modifications from its original S-LSA certification.
I don’t think so. I can provide a copy of my Operating Limitations if you want to see what’s typical. I find virtually no significant restrictions beyond not being able to use it for rental or flight instruction*. Plus, no modifications are allowed which would remove it from LSA restrictions.
*Pretty sure you can receive flight instruction in your own plane. You just can’t provide flight instruction to others.
The fact that an airplane is equipped with radios doesn't mean you're required to use them. You could fly the Bonanza NORDO as long as you stay out of class B, C, or D airspace.
FastEddieB
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Except the transponder.
If you have not I would take a look and get evaluated for a cochlear implants. They can be life changing. If your hearing is good enough you can still converse with people I would suggest you look at a different brand of hearing aide and headset. Hearing aides with a telecoil mode can work great with some headsets. If you can currently converse with your wife over the intercom I would suggest you get your radio installation carefully checked. It’s amazing how bad many radios are today both receiving and transmitting. A good radio installed properly should be just as clear as the intercom.
JOhnH
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Except that I don't have a ppl, comlex endorsement or HP endorsement.
We could keep the Bonanza for her and I could get a light sport license and plane, but then we would need a bigger hangar and checkbook.
Thanks for your comments. I have been evaluated, but don't quite pass the qualification to have insurance pay for Cochlear implants, and I can't pay the $100k/side myself.
I have some of the very best hearing aids made, and my audiologist is one of the best in the country, so I really believe that I am in as good as shape there as I can be. But I am in an area between the two.
That has been my thinking. I can hear my wife over the intercom pretty well, but I have a very hard time understanding incoming transmissins (ATC or ATIS) I have had a couple of avionics shops check my radio and they can't find anything wrong with it. I'd love to upgrade my Garmin GMA345 with a new PS Engineering panel, but without some sort of guarantee that I will be able to hear it better I am hesitant to make that investment. But your input will encourage me to investigate that further.
But even if I could hear ATC and ATIS as well as I hear my wife over the intercom, that still isn't good enough for me to depend on it being good enough to fly. I'd rather not have a radio than have a radio that I can't always understand well.
I don’t know how long since you had the cochlear implants evaluation. If it’s been several years I would consider doing it again. You are correct insurance won’t pay if they feel hearing aides give you the ability to normally converse. Some standards for insurance with the implants have also changed.
Make sure your shop has carefully checked not just the radios but all cabling, ground paths and the antenna. Most older aircraft have grounding issues.
On the subject of the hearing aids the most common type puts the mics on the aide itself over your ear. On many headsets the ear cup blocks the mics. Oversized ear cups are available and help but this is where telecoil mode can save the day. You are bypassing the bearing aide mics. The telecoil pics up the energy from the headset speakers in the cups and translates it into sound. Almost all good hearing aides have telecoil built in you just have to have your audiologists turn it on. You then select that mode when you put the headset on. It’s been a game changer for many hearing impaired pilots.
Make sure your shop has carefully checked not just the radios but all cabling, ground paths and the antenna. Most older aircraft have grounding issues.
On the subject of the hearing aids the most common type puts the mics on the aide itself over your ear. On many headsets the ear cup blocks the mics. Oversized ear cups are available and help but this is where telecoil mode can save the day. You are bypassing the bearing aide mics. The telecoil pics up the energy from the headset speakers in the cups and translates it into sound. Almost all good hearing aides have telecoil built in you just have to have your audiologists turn it on. You then select that mode when you put the headset on. It’s been a game changer for many hearing impaired pilots.
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Of course, but you can have the transponder on and still not use the com radio.
Understood, I was just making the point that having radios in the aircraft doesn't require you to actually use them (other than the transponder as FastEddie pointed out) and that's true whether the aircraft is LSA or not.
One thing to notice is that most sport pilot allowed planes these days aren't the best IFR platform even when they are legal to do so. I like a little speed and range if I'm going to do real IFR.
Rushie
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I have the same problem. I would no longer pass the AME talk behind me at 6 feet test, with the best hearing aids. I am barely functional in social settings. One to one conversation I can have if the person is facing me, NOT wearing a f ing mask, and there is no background noise.
Daleandee
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There was a lot of noise (no pun intended) a few years ago about text being used between pilots and ATC. Not sure us little guys were planned to be part of that, or at least not yet. Haven't heard much about it lately though ...
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Alpha_Delta_Tango
huh?
Dave Anderson
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SkyDreams
Yes, the Bristell can but only in IMC when certified as E-LSA Isn't bureaucracy grand!
jnmeade
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Some Special LIght Sport Aircraft (SLSA) have prohibitions against IMC operation in the AOI. Even when converted to Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (ELSA) one needs to check the Operating Limitations, as some refer back to the AOI.
FAA Order 8130.2J Table D1. #6
This aircraft may only be operated per the manufacturer’s aircraft operating instructions (AOI), including any requirement for necessary operating equipment specified in the aircraft’s equipment list. Night flight and instrument flight rules (IFR) operations are authorized if allowed by the AOI and if the instruments specified in § 91.205 are installed, operational, and maintained per the applicable requirements of part 91.
FAA Order 8130.2J Table D1. #6
This aircraft may only be operated per the manufacturer’s aircraft operating instructions (AOI), including any requirement for necessary operating equipment specified in the aircraft’s equipment list. Night flight and instrument flight rules (IFR) operations are authorized if allowed by the AOI and if the instruments specified in § 91.205 are installed, operational, and maintained per the applicable requirements of part 91.
Daleandee
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Look on the bright side ... the answer to the question is yes. The other
Stan Cooper
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I'm not sure I understand your question. Converting an SLSA to experimental is done all the time through the services of a DAR and doesn't restrict operation any more than an EAB. I did it to my Zodiac because as an experimental I can do my own maintenance and modifications (including ADS-B In/Out), and with my FAA Light Sport Repairman-Inspection certificate I can perform my own annual condition inspections. My new experimental operating limitations are similar to Fast Eddie's:
My CH601XLi-B Zodiac is certified for flight in IMC.N601KE Operating Limitations said:
RingLaserGyroSandwich
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Thank you for the additional perspective. I did some digging into the relevant regulations based on @FastEddieB's response and it makes sense now. According to Part 21.191 (Experimental Certificates), the "purposes" for receiving an experimental certificate are R&D, air racing, exhibition, a bunch of other stuff, AND operating light-sport aircraft. Paragraph 21.191.(i)(3) is the "purpose" and says "Has been previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under § 21.190." Therefore, you wouldn't need to give a separate reason.
I also see @flyingron's point that LSAs may not make the best platform for IFR in IMC, but if you don't plan in flying in the soup for extended periods the capability could still be really nice. I wonder, if you were buying a new LSA, would it make more sense to buy the most basic version, convert to E-LSA, then upgrade the instrument panel with less strict certification-related requirements, or to just buy the fully IFR-equipped LSA from the getgo...
Stan Cooper
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AMD sold the 601XLi (the "i" is for instrument certified) as certified for flight in IMC.
Stan Cooper
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Exactly. If you look up N601KE on the FAA aircraft registry web page, under "AIRWORTHINESS" you'll see it lists my airplane as "Classification: Experimental", "Category: Operating Light-Sport Prev issued cert under 21.190."
Dave Anderson
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Speed, I get but range is dependent on loads If solo, my range > 750NM which is more than I want to sit in the aircraft.