Is my instructor right for me?

[MAKG1]

And that's how we get things like holding on the customer service line for 45+ minutes.

Try working on the other side of a counter before you say that.

Unreasonable demands from customers are not at all rare.

The one I used to run into all the time in retail is that some guy would buy a $200 RC airplane (in the 80's -- real money), give it to a young kid, the kid would break it, he'd return it as "defective," and then repeat the cycle multiple times. If it happens once, there is doubt and you eat it. If it happens 4-5 times, you start to suspect the customer may be abusing the product. No retailer can stay solvent with a 10-40% margin by replacing abused product several times over, and it's not normal to indemnify abuse, even if the customer demands it.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

Doesn't make a student my employer. I'm providing a service, and like a student, I can drop you too. Done that and refused one fella who told me I would teach him because I had to. Talking with him I saw that he would be a problem. Nope doesn't work that way.

Of course it doesn't work that way, and I don't believe it's right for anyone to treat another person as if they own them. But, by definition, the student employs the instructor. Just like any other job, the instructor does not have to work for that particular employer. But if the instructor does want to collect a paycheck from that employer, the instructors does have to work for them.

To elaborate, most employers can't get away with treating their employees like chop liver. If they tried to, they'd likely lose most of their employees. If a student is sour to his CFI, the CFI has every right and would be in his nature to find other students.

...And that's what makes the world go 'round.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

Try working on the other side of a counter before you say that.

Unreasonable demands from customers are not at all rare.

The one I used to run into all the time in retail is that some guy would buy a $200 RC airplane (in the 80's -- real money), give it to a young kid, the kid would break it, he'd return it as "defective," and then repeat the cycle multiple times. If it happens once, there is doubt and you eat it. If it happens 4-5 times, you start to suspect the customer may be abusing the product. No retailer can stay solvent with a 10-40% margin by replacing abused product several times over, and it's not normal to indemnify abuse, even if the customer demands it.

If you did not submit to your customer complaints, you would lose that customer, no? And if you lost that customer, you would not have him as a customer, yeah? So if you did not cater to him, who would you cater to?

That's the big picture. A company cannot exist if it cannot sell it's product and it cannot sell it's product if there are no people to buy the product and there would be no people to buy the product if those people did not like the company and the products!

Try owning a business then let me know how ignoring the customer will work for you.

 

[mulligan]

As the op I wanted to provide an update. After enjoying reading the various replies I decided to call the CFI and ask what his thoughts were. He simply stated that I was frustrated and agreed we had a communications issue but was not going to take the controls as a tactic to get me back on course. While I don't agree with his tactic, I understand.

Part of my frustration grows from my original CFI got a new job and this CFI is extremely thorough and process oriented. This can be a good thing but as my first CFI was the exact opposite, he basically had me start over from scratch and I don't like repeating my efforts, especially this far along. I have learned much from him but the level of detail often goes way beyond what I feel is needed for a PPL. He often says when you fly bigger or go commercial you will need know all of these things. An example would be reviewing. 60 degree turns for commercial when only 45 degree turns are required for PPl. I state my intentions of only PPl with IFR but he comes back I'm not going to make you a pilot, I'm going to make you an aviator. I come from the school of keep it simple stupid. I know I can be an extremely good pilot without all of the additional data points. Sure they are great to know, but at my stage, they can muddy the waters and distract the goal at hand.

In any event, he says I am three consecutive landings away from a solo and feels that with my progress can get there in 2 to 3 more lessons so I'll stick it out. I like him very much but get frustrated when I don't perform well and his style can add to my frustration but in the end I feel I will be a better pilot for it.

 

[MAKG1]

If you did not submit to your customer complaints, you would lose that customer, no? And if you lost that customer, you would not have him as a customer, yeah? So if you did not cater to him, who would you cater to?

That's the big picture. A company cannot exist if it cannot sell it's product and it cannot sell it's product if there are no people to buy the product and there would be no people to buy the product if those people did not like the company and the products!

Try owning a business then let me know how ignoring the customer will work for you.

A customer that buys a $200 item on less than 40% margin, and then requires it to be replaced multiple times, is a liability. Your company lasts much longer without him.

40% margin means the item costs YOU about $140 (though, honestly, the expensive hobby items generally were priced at the low end of the markup -- closer to 10%). You buy it five times over, so it's $700 in costs -- abuse is not returnable. The customer gave you $200. Now, WHY do you want this customer?

Think about this for a moment. Not all customers are profitable.

If there is any doubt, you eat the cost for "good will." When it happens several times over -- and this is not AT ALL rare -- it's no longer good will.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

As the op I wanted to provide an update. After enjoying reading the various replies I decided to call the CFI and ask what his thoughts were. He simply stated that I was frustrated and agreed we had a communications issue but was not going to take the controls as a tactic to get me back on course. While I don't agree with his tactic, I understand.

Part of my frustration grows from my original CFI got a new job and this CFI is extremely thorough and process oriented. This can be a good thing but as my first CFI was the exact opposite, he basically had me start over from scratch and I don't like repeating my efforts, especially this far along. I have learned much from him but the level of detail often goes way beyond what I feel is needed for a PPL. He often says when you fly bigger or go commercial you will need know all of these things. An example would be reviewing. 60 degree turns for commercial when only 45 degree turns are required for PPl. I state my intentions of only PPl with IFR but he comes back I'm not going to make you a pilot, I'm going to make you an aviator. I come from the school of keep it simple stupid. I know I can be an extremely good pilot without all of the additional data points. Sure they are great to know, but at my stage, they can muddy the waters and distract the goal at hand.

In any event, he says I am three consecutive landings away from a solo and feels that with my progress can get there in 2 to 3 more lessons so I'll stick it out. I like him very much but get frustrated when I don't perform well and his style can add to my frustration but in the end I feel I will be a better pilot for it.

That's good news, keep up the momentum and let us know when you solo! I think you'll find it'll give you a lot of confidence to know that you can fly the airplane.

A customer that buys a $200 item on less than 40% margin, and then requires it to be replaced multiple times, is a liability. Your company lasts much longer without him.

40% margin means the item costs YOU about $140 (though, honestly, the expensive hobby items generally were priced at the low end of the markup -- closer to 10%). You buy it five times over, so it's $700 in costs -- abuse is not returnable. The customer gave you $200. Now, WHY do you want this customer?

Think about this for a moment. Not all customers are profitable.

If there is any doubt, you eat the cost for "good will." When it happens several times over -- and this is not AT ALL rare -- it's no longer good will.

Of course they aren't, but that guy who abuses the system might have ten buddies he's told about how happy those RC planes make his son. And maybe each of those ten buddies bought one, too. I think it's hard for you and I to communicate our thoughts on the matter since hypothetical scenarios can only go so far. But, you know that company that makes screen protectors, Zagg? They cost about $50 each but they guarantee lifetime replacement on them if they scratch or crack. I have no doubts whatsoever that there are people who exploit this system but I think it's an excellent platform. That's why I bought their product and that's why I'm telling you about it now. While they might go into the red here and there on a few customer accounts, their outright commitment to their customers is part of what makes them so successful.

 

[MAKG1]

As the op I wanted to provide an update. After enjoying reading the various replies I decided to call the CFI and ask what his thoughts were. He simply stated that I was frustrated and agreed we had a communications issue but was not going to take the controls as a tactic to get me back on course. While I don't agree with his tactic, I understand.

Part of my frustration grows from my original CFI got a new job and this CFI is extremely thorough and process oriented. This can be a good thing but as my first CFI was the exact opposite, he basically had me start over from scratch and I don't like repeating my efforts, especially this far along. I have learned much from him but the level of detail often goes way beyond what I feel is needed for a PPL. He often says when you fly bigger or go commercial you will need know all of these things. An example would be reviewing. 60 degree turns for commercial when only 45 degree turns are required for PPl. I state my intentions of only PPl with IFR but he comes back I'm not going to make you a pilot, I'm going to make you an aviator. I come from the school of keep it simple stupid. I know I can be an extremely good pilot without all of the additional data points. Sure they are great to know, but at my stage, they can muddy the waters and distract the goal at hand.

In any event, he says I am three consecutive landings away from a solo and feels that with my progress can get there in 2 to 3 more lessons so I'll stick it out. I like him very much but get frustrated when I don't perform well and his style can add to my frustration but in the end I feel I will be a better pilot for it.

Good luck.

Keep in mind that bare minimums don't work well in aviation.

The minimum to pass a practical test is that you can consistently fly an airplane safely. That's not enough for someone to want to get in the plane with you, and it's nowhere near what you need for instrument training.

 

[Landshark]

...and a 206 is a hell of a lot EASIER than a light 152/172, to fly and land.

Is there any merit to the statement that if you can land a 152, you can land anything?

 

[MAKG1]

Of course they aren't, but that guy who abuses the system might have ten buddies he's told about how happy those RC planes make his son. And maybe each of those ten buddies bought one, too. I think it's hard for you and I to communicate our thoughts on the matter since hypothetical scenarios can only go so far. But, you know that company that makes screen protectors, Zagg? They cost about $50 each but they guarantee lifetime replacement on them if they scratch or crack. I have no doubts whatsoever that there are people who exploit this system but I think it's an excellent platform. That's why I bought their product and that's why I'm telling you about it now. While they might go into the red here and there on a few customer accounts, their outright commitment to their customers is part of what makes them so successful.

OK, you're young.

You can tell.

You're paying $50 for a $1 item in order to pay for that. Some of us would rather have the $1 item and just eat it when we screw it up.

That's a relatively new thing. People have figured out that they can charge outrageous markup and also make poor quality merchandise. If you mark it up 10 times, you can afford to replace it 3 or 4 times before the customer gives up.

But if we tried that on an RC airplane at the time, it would have been priced higher than a real brand new 152. Hard to imagine that business model working, isn't it?

 

[MAKG1]

Is there any merit to the statement that if you can land a 152, you can land anything?

It's cute, but no. You could probably land any tricycle piston Cessna provided you get the V-speeds right (they are all a bit faster), and you get the gear down in a retract. No way in hell you could land a Cessna 140 cold based only on experience in a 152.

 

[MadseasoN]

What happens once you get your cert? You should expect flights filled with sequential challenges. There's no pause button. Stick with a tough instructor. If you can learn to perform under pressure now you'll thank him for it later.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

OK, you're young.

You can tell.

You're paying $50 for a $1 item in order to pay for that. Some of us would rather have the $1 item and just eat it when we screw it up.

That's a relatively new thing. People have figured out that they can charge outrageous markup and also make poor quality merchandise. If you mark it up 10 times, you can afford to replace it 3 or 4 times before the customer gives up.

But if we tried that on an RC airplane at the time, it would have been priced higher than a real brand new 152. Hard to imagine that business model working, isn't it?

It's not poor quality. Good luck finding a screen protector for $1...

You can continue to try to take the easy way out, but in the end, your company absolutely, without a doubt, will not survive, if you don't keep the customer in mind. If you don't believe me, ask the OP who is an executive. I might be young, I might not be, you'll never know. What you should know is that finance is what I do for a living and it's what I enjoy so pm me if you'd really like to crunch numbers.

 

[Landshark]

It's cute, but no. You could probably land any tricycle piston Cessna provided you get the V-speeds right (they are all a bit faster), and you get the gear down in a retract. No way in hell you could land a Cessna 140 cold based only on experience in a 152.

Oh I didn't mean landing them cold. I meant if you could learn to successfully land a 152, it would be a relatively easy transition to learn to land any other GA or commercial airplane, excluding tailwheels.

 

[James331]

As the op I wanted to provide an update. After enjoying reading the various replies I decided to call the CFI and ask what his thoughts were. He simply stated that I was frustrated and agreed we had a communications issue but was not going to take the controls as a tactic to get me back on course. While I don't agree with his tactic, I understand.

Part of my frustration grows from my original CFI got a new job and this CFI is extremely thorough and process oriented. This can be a good thing but as my first CFI was the exact opposite, he basically had me start over from scratch and I don't like repeating my efforts, especially this far along. I have learned much from him but the level of detail often goes way beyond what I feel is needed for a PPL. He often says when you fly bigger or go commercial you will need know all of these things. An example would be reviewing. 60 degree turns for commercial when only 45 degree turns are required for PPl. I state my intentions of only PPl with IFR but he comes back I'm not going to make you a pilot, I'm going to make you an aviator. I come from the school of keep it simple stupid. I know I can be an extremely good pilot without all of the additional data points. Sure they are great to know, but at my stage, they can muddy the waters and distract the goal at hand.

In any event, he says I am three consecutive landings away from a solo and feels that with my progress can get there in 2 to 3 more lessons so I'll stick it out. I like him very much but get frustrated when I don't perform well and his style can add to my frustration but in the end I feel I will be a better pilot for it.

Hmm, sucks you're paying to swap CFIs, I've always had a issue with CFIs who don't finish their existing guys out before leaving.

As for your new CFI, what's his background?

For a PPL a 60 degree steep turn is a bust.

 

[Mason]

Part of my frustration grows from my original CFI got a new job and this CFI is extremely thorough and process oriented. This can be a good thing but as my first CFI was the exact opposite, he basically had me start over from scratch and I don't like repeating my efforts, especially this far along. I have learned much from him but the level of detail often goes way beyond what I feel is needed for a PPL. He often says when you fly bigger or go commercial you will need know all of these things. An example would be reviewing. 60 degree turns for commercial when only 45 degree turns are required for PPl. I state my intentions of only PPl with IFR but he comes back I'm not going to make you a pilot, I'm going to make you an aviator.

I can appreciate that. My #1 CFI had me flying to commercial standards and tolerances for the PPL. No reason you can't do this, he said. We did not do the commercial maneuvers but we did the altitude, heading, speeds, and everything else. Made me a better and safer pilot, I think. Made the DPE smile, too.

 

[Cooter]

He simply stated that I was frustrated and agreed we had a communications issue but was not going to take the controls as a tactic to get me back on course.

... he basically had me start over from scratch and I don't like repeating my efforts, especially this far along. I have learned much from him but the level of detail often goes way beyond what I feel is needed for a PPL. He often says when you fly bigger or go commercial you will need know all of these things. An example would be reviewing. 60 degree turns for commercial when only 45 degree turns are required for PPl. I state my intentions of only PPl with IFR but he comes back I'm not going to make you a pilot, I'm going to make you an aviator.

The CFI sounds like a tool to me. Maybe it's just the way it comes across through the post. Either way, I would settle the control issue before I flew with him again. If you tell him to take the controls, he needs to take the controls. Does he brief CRM before you fly?

 

[PaulS]

As the op I wanted to provide an update. After enjoying reading the various replies I decided to call the CFI and ask what his thoughts were. He simply stated that I was frustrated and agreed we had a communications issue but was not going to take the controls as a tactic to get me back on course. While I don't agree with his tactic, I understand.

Part of my frustration grows from my original CFI got a new job and this CFI is extremely thorough and process oriented. This can be a good thing but as my first CFI was the exact opposite, he basically had me start over from scratch and I don't like repeating my efforts, especially this far along. I have learned much from him but the level of detail often goes way beyond what I feel is needed for a PPL. He often says when you fly bigger or go commercial you will need know all of these things. An example would be reviewing. 60 degree turns for commercial when only 45 degree turns are required for PPl. I state my intentions of only PPl with IFR but he comes back I'm not going to make you a pilot, I'm going to make you an aviator. I come from the school of keep it simple stupid. I know I can be an extremely good pilot without all of the additional data points. Sure they are great to know, but at my stage, they can muddy the waters and distract the goal at hand.

In any event, he says I am three consecutive landings away from a solo and feels that with my progress can get there in 2 to 3 more lessons so I'll stick it out. I like him very much but get frustrated when I don't perform well and his style can add to my frustration but in the end I feel I will be a better pilot for it.

So when I learned to fly I had some issues learning to land.

Then I had a revelation and realized I wasn't listening to what my instructor was saying, I was fighting him internally questioning things he was asking me to do. My revelation was I was paying him a lot of money (for me at the time) plus the airplane, I needed to trust him and do what he said.

I've written this before, at home I sat in a chair, and I went through a landing, from pattern entry to taxi. I moved my hand to the controls for power reductions. I crabbed for crosswinds, I slipped if I was too high. I spent an hour or two doing this a few times before my next lesson. I soloed that lesson.

Stop fighting him, acquiesce, he knows more than you about flying. If he thinks you need to review stuff, then review it. You'll get it down much quicker and be rid of him much quicker.

 

[N801BH]

As the op I wanted to provide an update. After enjoying reading the various replies I decided to call the CFI and ask what his thoughts were. He simply stated that I was frustrated and agreed we had a communications issue but was not going to take the controls as a tactic to get me back on course. While I don't agree with his tactic, I understand.

Part of my frustration grows from my original CFI got a new job and this CFI is extremely thorough and process oriented. This can be a good thing but as my first CFI was the exact opposite, he basically had me start over from scratch and I don't like repeating my efforts, especially this far along. I have learned much from him but the level of detail often goes way beyond what I feel is needed for a PPL. He often says when you fly bigger or go commercial you will need know all of these things. An example would be reviewing. 60 degree turns for commercial when only 45 degree turns are required for PPl. I state my intentions of only PPl with IFR but he comes back I'm not going to make you a pilot, I'm going to make you an aviator. I come from the school of keep it simple stupid. I know I can be an extremely good pilot without all of the additional data points. Sure they are great to know, but at my stage, they can muddy the waters and distract the goal at hand.

In any event, he says I am three consecutive landings away from a solo and feels that with my progress can get there in 2 to 3 more lessons so I'll stick it out. I like him very much but get frustrated when I don't perform well and his style can add to my frustration but in the end I feel I will be a better pilot for it.

My post was #3....

Personally I think he forced your hand to actually fly and land the plane.... I would side with the instructor on this one..

This guy is teaching you how to stay ALIVE.... This is NOT a drivers Ed class where you can pull over and call AAA to ask for a tow home...

I commend you on your decision to continue using the instructor....

10 years from now... You will be praising him for being such an ****ole...

Let us all know how your solo flight went..

I am betting you will hit a home run.... IMHO..

 

[Clip4]

Exactly. I've only ever written checks made out to my instructor directly. There may be flight schools where the student pays a tuition and the school writes the payroll, but someone is depositing the cash for it. Nothing is free.

Also, to further display my argument, from Dictionary.com:

That may be the way it works in your limited universe. There are students who pay zero and their employers or another party pays for the instruction.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

That may be the way it works in your limited universe. There are students who pay zero and their employers or another party pays for the instruction.

Limited used to describe universe, eh? If a person's employer is paying for their flight training, that would undoubtedly be a form of payment, just like healthcare benefits, bonuses, company vehicles, and wages. If that person was paid out in cash the value of said flight training in lieu of receiving it, and decided to purchase flight training with that money, he would effectively be in exactly the same position as if the employer had paid for it in the first place. The only difference is that it would have gone through a few extra rounds of taxes. I can talk money all day long, pm me if you are still unable to wrap your mind around this concept, I warmly invite you.

Anyway, even if there is a third party paying for it, the student is still the party consuming the goods/services, as in, he/she is the consumer. Consumer is then of course synonymous with customer. So the student is still the customer.

 

[Landshark]

My PPL instructor was a real hard-ass. He was always distracting me, throwing different situations into the mix and making me do 4 or 5 things at once. The moment I got comfortable with something, felt I had turned the corner, and thought I could really do this aviation thing, he would burst my bubble and ask that I do it at the same time as something completely new or in a new setting. It was frustrating, at times really sucked, and was challenging throughout.

Much to my surprise, every time I soloed, I felt like a much better pilot afterward. I was able to slow down and process everything he had taught me and practice without fear of prejudice or judgement. He would show me how to do it, I would learn and perfect it on my own.

When I finished the checkride, the examiner was very impressed that I didn't give in to the pressure that he intentionally exerted. He tried to rush me and see if I would crack. Whats funny was that I didn't even notice. I was used to the pressure of flying, managing the radio, and having somebody in my right ear making demands at the most inopportune moment.

Lets say you're in the pattern on base and just about to turn final. ATC asks you to turn and abort the landing to avoid a collision. You have passengers and what seemed like a very routine landing has just become much less routine. The urgency of the controller, coupled with coming up on final goads you into turning a little too hard for the circumstances. The plane doesn't care that you are inundated with passengers yapping their heads off, ATC asking you to do something you normally don't do, calculating your position and trajectory in relation to another plane, and performing an avoidance maneuver at a very low airspeed.

Turn a little too hard and the plane is not going to care about any of that. It will only care about the laws of physics and that will result in a stall or spin at a low speed and low altitude. An obituary usually follows. I feel that you will only fly as good as you train.

 

[bobmrg]

My PPL instructor was a real hard-ass. He was always distracting me, throwing different situations into the mix and making me do 4 or 5 things at once. The moment I got comfortable with something, felt I had turned the corner, and thought I could really do this aviation thing, he would burst my bubble and ask that I do it at the same time as something completely new or in a new setting. It was frustrating, at times really sucked, and was challenging throughout.

Much to my surprise, every time I soloed, I felt like a much better pilot afterward. I was able to slow down and process everything he had taught me and practice without fear of prejudice or judgement. He would show me how to do it, I would learn and perfect it on my own.

When I finished the checkride, the examiner was very impressed that I didn't give in to the pressure that he intentionally exerted. He tried to rush me and see if I would crack. Whats funny was that I didn't even notice. I was used to the pressure of flying, managing the radio, and having somebody in my right ear making demands at the most inopportune moment.

Lets say you're in the pattern on base and just about to turn final. ATC asks you to turn and abort the landing to avoid a collision. You have passengers and what seemed like a very routine landing has just become much less routine. The urgency of the controller, coupled with coming up on final goads you into turning a little too hard for the circumstances. The plane doesn't care that you are inundated with passengers yapping their heads off, ATC asking you to do something you normally don't do, calculating your position and trajectory in relation to another plane, and performing an avoidance maneuver at a very low airspeed.

Turn a little too hard and the plane is not going to care about any of that. It will only care about the laws of physics and that will result in a stall or spin at a low speed and low altitude. An obituary usually follows. I feel that you will only fly as good as you train.

"Unable." That puts the ball back in the controller's court. FAR 91.3

Bob Gardner

 

[OkieAviator]

I suppose. But like I was telling mscard, it is typical for me to get trampled over, so sometimes, you have to bring bigger guns to the fight. I do not want to bring up the woman card but... it is the nature of man to want to be the dominator, especially when he is in an authoritative position (such as a flight instructor).

Sounds like you should surround yourself with better people and avoid those you feel are trying to dominate you. I wouldn't considered a CFI as someone in an authoritative position either... In fact I've respectfully challenged a few CFIs I've worked with.

 

[hotprops]

to recap i was a spoiled rich ******* like the op . i got my ass kicked by a great instructor and it helped me be the best I could be in a airplane, and in business, and life .pussys , should take up golf

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

Sounds like you should surround yourself with better people and avoid those you feel are trying to dominate you. I wouldn't considered a CFI as someone in an authoritative position either... In fact I've respectfully challenged a few CFIs I've worked with.

Definitely. It's so hard to tell based on first impressions what an instructor will be like 20 hours down the road though. And when we get that far along in training, it becomes a matter of putting up with it for the rest of the rating or finding a new CFI and starting all over again. That's where we get dilemmas like what the OP mentioned. But thankfully God gave us each a functional brain to help us find the right path in our unique situations.

 

[mulligan]

to recap i was a spoiled rich ******* like the op . i got my ass kicked by a great instructor and it helped me be the best I could be in a airplane, and in business, and life .pussys , should take up golf

Wow. I have been categorized as a spoiled rich ******* and a .***** based on a couple posts. Well if you consider someone who has never been given anything and worked hard and earned everything he has as spoiled then guilty as charged. If you consider me a .***** for wanting to actually learn the basics before moving to the challenge phase then yet again, I'm a *****. When I went through the police academy, we had basic mandate which was the foundation. We then had FTO which was applying the foundation before we hit the streets on our own. I can take instruction. I can take criticism. I can take getting yelled at and being called names. I now older and much more mature and have incredible self awareness. Based on that, I know how I learn. It does not mean I am a *****, it means that I know that I want to be a good pilot and know what works best for me and simply asked a question in the spirit of continuos improvement.

Glad we cleared that up. Maybe when I am done with this training I can hire the Internet posters to teach me how to judge a persons 40+ years of experience by a few words.

 

[MAKG1]

If you went through police academy, then you know to train like you intend to execute. Which makes the minimums thing both a bit odd in context and a bit worrisome. Minimum standards are just that -- minimum. They are not good, just minimally safe.

IRL, you have to land -- or not -- with the gear down and the airplane configured, with the kid in the back seat whining he has to go NOW, the right seat complaining it's late, ATC asking for parking (yes, they do that on final sometimes), a jet departing on the parallel runway and another behind you, and a flock of birds in the vicinity. Very little of that is in the PTS.

 

[mulligan]

If you went through police academy, then you know to train like you intend to execute. Which makes the minimums thing both a bit odd in context and a bit worrisome. Minimum standards are just that -- minimum. They are not good, just minimally safe.



IRL, you have to land -- or not -- with the gear down and the airplane configured, with the kid in the back seat whining he has to go NOW, the right seat complaining it's late, ATC asking for parking (yes, they do that on final sometimes), a jet departing on the parallel runway and another behind you, and a flock of birds in the vicinity. Very little of that is in the PTS.

I agree with all of that. However, my point here is that I am not currently a certified pilot and am in the training and learning phase. When I learned how to drive a car we learned rules of the road, hands 10 and 2, don't use radio, etc... No I can drive down the road while using my laptop in my cruiser while operating a radio and still be completely aware of my surroundings. We don't start off with kids in the plane crying, we have to train to get to that point of being able to do all of that. I would think that different people can get to that same point different ways and still be very competent in doing so.

Point simply put. Everyone will have to be able to do all of those things to be an aviator. But those things can be added in a step at a time and at the students pace to be able to safely do so.

 

[MadseasoN]

I agree with all of that. However, my point here is that I am not currently a certified pilot and am in the training and learning phase. When I learned how to drive a car we learned rules of the road, hands 10 and 2, don't use radio, etc... No I can drive down the road while using my laptop in my cruiser while operating a radio and still be completely aware of my surroundings. We don't start off with kids in the plane crying, we have to train to get to that point of being able to do all of that. I would think that different people can get to that same point different ways and still be very competent in doing so.

Point simply put. Everyone will have to be able to do all of those things to be an aviator. But those things can be added in a step at a time and at the students pace to be able to safely do so.

Yes but with very little aviation experience how can you be sure where you are in that process? Before you solo you need the be able to fly with some distractions including being yelled at on the radio, other pilots not flying the pattern correctly, birds, plane issues, etc

 

[PaulS]

I agree with all of that. However, my point here is that I am not currently a certified pilot and am in the training and learning phase. When I learned how to drive a car we learned rules of the road, hands 10 and 2, don't use radio, etc... No I can drive down the road while using my laptop in my cruiser while operating a radio and still be completely aware of my surroundings. We don't start off with kids in the plane crying, we have to train to get to that point of being able to do all of that. I would think that different people can get to that same point different ways and still be very competent in doing so.

Point simply put. Everyone will have to be able to do all of those things to be an aviator. But those things can be added in a step at a time and at the students pace to be able to safely do so.

Man, I'm thinking you are a whiner.

Your instructor believes you are ready, he refused to take the controls and you are still alive. At this point he's forgotten more than you know about flying and training students. He's not going to let you hurt him and will step in long before it gets to that point. He knows better what you can handle better than you do. When flying alone in an airplane, you can't pick and choose what happens based on your feeling of readiness, it just happens and you better be reacting to it, not worrying that you are not ready.

Quit overthinking it and acting like a little school girl with butt hurt after the fact.

JUST DO IT, it sounds like you are ready if you will GET OUR OF YOUR OWN WAY!!!!!!!!!

 

[mulligan]

Lol. I'm not currently trying to solo. I'm currently trying to learn how to land a plane in crosswinds. Then I will work towards solo. And my CFI does not yell at me! If he did, he would not be my CFI. We had a communication issue. He did not yell. The yelling is referenced in others posts about kids yelling or I me stating I don't mind being yelled at. Don't want anyone to think he does hell at me

 

[tawood]

I agree with all of that. However, my point here is that I am not currently a certified pilot and am in the training and learning phase. When I learned how to drive a car we learned rules of the road, hands 10 and 2, don't use radio, etc... No I can drive down the road while using my laptop in my cruiser while operating a radio and still be completely aware of my surroundings. We don't start off with kids in the plane crying, we have to train to get to that point of being able to do all of that. I would think that different people can get to that same point different ways and still be very competent in doing so.

Point simply put. Everyone will have to be able to do all of those things to be an aviator. But those things can be added in a step at a time and at the students pace to be able to safely do so.

I know what you mean, in more ways than one (I'm also a police academy graduate and currently a 24 years law enforcement/detective employee). If I had compared my law enforcement training with my pilot training I might have agreed with you, but I didn't.
What I can tell you, when I got my license, I was VERY GLAD that I chose my local VERY BUSY (6th busiest in the world for class D according to Wikipedia) airport. Because I learned here right from the get go, and got very use to this very busy airport, it became "no big deal". I'd like a dollar for every time I hear local pilots tell me they refuse to fly to the airport I learned on because it is "too busy". The fact that it's busy doesn't worry me a bit...busy seems normal to me now.
You could look at it that this instructor wouldn't take the controls for you and he should have...but I wouldn't agree unless it was unsafe.
My instructor had me do EVERYTHING, from my very first flight. He only took the controls from me before I soloed, on landing a few times, right when things completely turned to *****. Otherwise, he would have just laughed if I had said "take it" because I was simply over-whelmed. We had a good rapport, and I liked the guy, but I trusted him too. Maybe this is about trust?

 

[JCranford]

Wait, Im confused. In your first post you were an executive with an A type personality. Now youre a cop. Which is it? Get your story straight. If youre a cop some guys on this site will have WAY different advice for you...

 

[jordane93]

I know what you mean, in more ways than one (I'm also a police academy graduate and currently a 24 years law enforcement/detective employee). If I had compared my law enforcement training with my pilot training I might have agreed with you, but I didn't.
What I can tell you, when I got my license, I was VERY GLAD that I chose my local VERY BUSY (6th busiest in the world for class D according to Wikipedia) airport. Because I learned here right from the get go, and got very use to this very busy airport, it became "no big deal". I'd like a dollar for every time I hear local pilots tell me they refuse to fly to the airport I learned on because it is "too busy". The fact that it's busy doesn't worry me a bit...busy seems normal to me now.
You could look at it that this instructor wouldn't take the controls for you and he should have...but I wouldn't agree unless it was unsafe.
My instructor had me do EVERYTHING, from my very first flight. He only took the controls from me before I soloed, on landing a few times, right when things completely turned to *****. Otherwise, he would have just laughed if I had said "take it" because I was simply over-whelmed. We had a good rapport, and I liked the guy, but I trusted him too. Maybe this is about trust?

There needs to be a good a balance. For the first flight, we run through the pre flight together, checklists, and we start the engine together. For taxiing, I work the power so the student can focus on taxiing. Takeoff we do together and I'll walk them through it. Landing, they'll follow me along and I'll talk while doing it. If they are about to solo and they miss a radio call or ask me something they should know, I just shrug my shoulders and tell them I'm just a passenger. I'm a lot more hands off when it comes time to solo because I'm simulating like there isn't going to be anyone else in the cockpit. Check ride prep, I just observe and make comments and corrections when necessary. Again you need a balance and gauge where each student is. If I see my student getting flustered, I don't take the controls but I'll just say, "let's call it a day" and we'll head back to the airport. I also always try to do some fun flights with my students and we'll get food somewhere or do the NYC during the day and at night.

 

[airdale]

There are two very different things getting mixed up here. A tough, demanding instructor is one thing. A guy who is a jerk is completely separate issue.

Between getting my ratings and various check rides I have probably flown with 10-20 instructors, maybe more. I like tough, demanding instructors. I don't fly with jerks.

From the OP's description of his requests to the instructor to take the controls, I concluded that the instructor was a jerk. From the OP's subsequent post, maybe the correct conclusion is that, at that point in time, the instructor acted like a jerk. If the OP feels, as he says, that the guy is redeemable then that's fine.

But tough and demanding instructors don't have to be and IMO usually are not jerks.

 

[MAKG1]

Point simply put. Everyone will have to be able to do all of those things to be an aviator. But those things can be added in a step at a time and at the students pace to be able to safely do so.

Not if you're close to solo. They all have to be together and working in place. Well, except for the passenger thing (that's not legal for a student solo). But **** happens on student solos. I got cut off in the pattern arriving home from mine at a crazy busy Class D.

You're viewing the instructor as a crutch. You'll have to get past that in order to solo. You're training to be a pilot in command. Yes, even as a pre solo student. It's a very different mindset. You have to trust your instructor implicitly and at the same time prepare to make command decisions and all necessary actions yourself with no help. That's the point of pre solo training.

 

[MadseasoN]

Lol. I'm not currently trying to solo. I'm currently trying to learn how to land a plane in crosswinds. Then I will work towards solo. And my CFI does not yell at me! If he did, he would not be my CFI. We had a communication issue. He did not yell. The yelling is referenced in others posts about kids yelling or I me stating I don't mind being yelled at. Don't want anyone to think he does hell at me

Actually you are trying/working towards solo. Good luck to you. Come back and read this thread after you rack up a couple hundred hours. You'll see it differently.

 

[hotprops]

op your screen name is kind of ironic ,as i was told once you dont get any mulligans in flying .not being a golfer i had to ask what i was being told . what area of cop business you in ? buying a new t206h your name tom sellick?

 

[mulligan]

op your screen name is kind of ironic ,as i was told once you dont get any mulligans in flying .not being a golfer i had to ask what i was being told . what area of cop business you in ? buying a new t206h your name tom sellick?

Retired from LEO years ago and just do reserve work now and then.

 

[Landshark]

Its crazy. To solo, especially away from the airport, you need to have all the skills in place that you would need as a regular PPL. They just won't be as good or fine tuned at that point but the skill set needs to be complete because anything that can happen to a regular private pilot can also happen to a student pilot. The only relief that a student pilot may get from ATC is if you announce "student solo" as you make your initial radio call. But I've done that and they still had me jump through hoops.

So the average solo student (25-35 hours) needs to be able to handle every situation that the average private pilot (60-70 hours) knows how to. Just that thought gave me pause when I was about to solo and made me even ask my instructor if I was supposed to be a perfect pilot by solo time since there was no safety net. The answer of course was no followed by, "good luck out there!"

Earlier I posted about the benefits of being challenged and multi tasking while training. That is great if its at the right level. Too much and its counter productive. I actually asked my instructor to bring it down a notch and it worked out better for me. He had me do 3 or 4 things at once instead of 4 or 5.

You'll have to figure out with your instructor that ideal balance between too easy and too overwhelming. Don't cheat yourself though. Usually the harder road is the better one. The easy way may reduce your potential and produce less value for your money.