Is it x-country time?

[rocketflyer84]

Discussion came up today and interested in a clarification.

Pilot flies from airport A to B (more than 50 nm apart) via an IFR flight plan. Pilot coordinates with ATC to do an intentional missed approach, continues into the hold and does a few laps there then comes back and does a second instrument approach to a full stop at airport B.

Question is what's the cross country time. Heard two different points of view today.

1) The whole time from A to parked on the ground at B

2) Above but subtract out the intentional missed, hold and second approach since that's just practice approaches and not really cross-country flying.

I see the logic being used to come up with 2, but see nothing in the FARs or AIM that would define X-country time in a way that makes 1 wrong.

Which is it? Thanks!

 

[James331]

Prop start to prop stop is logged as XC time

 

[midlifeflyer]

Rule of thumb: unless you are being utterly ridiculous, what you consider to be a cross country flight is pretty much up to you. The old, orphaned, disowned Part 61 FAQ answered this type of question with "The 'original point of departure' for the purpose of a cross country does not change with a new day or delay."

More recently, in 2009, in answering a number of question questions about cross country logging (mostly regarding safety pilot scenarios), the FAA Chief Counsel made the following observation in response to a question about repositioning fights:

==============================
There is nothing in § 61.1(b)(3)(ii) or previous FAA interpretations dictating how separate flights must be logged. Accordingly, the pilot may choose what is considered a discreet flight and what is merely a segment of a flight, and then log that time appropriately when the flight is conducted. Section 61.1(b)(3)(ii) requires that the flight include a landing at a point other than the point of departure.
==============================

So, for example, my commercial solo cross country involved a 2-day trip in which I diverted overnight for weather.

What is "utterly ridiculous"? I'm not aware of anything by way of example from the FAA. It's just a sense that, as in other areas, the FAA may look at a scenario and say, "that's a sham" (nice way of saying "that's BS"). So I guess you'll know it when you see it.

I don't see it in the scenario you posted. Flying a missed and a second approach is something very, very normal in a real cross country flight.

 

[frfly172]

Block to block time,flying the hold actually usually extends the mileage.

 

[fiveoboy01]

The entire time can be logged as XC time. I've NEVER heard anyone say that scenario #2 would apply.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

The entire time can be logged as XC time. I've NEVER heard anyone say that scenario #2 would apply.

Makes sense, because a cross country requires a different process from the start: navigation, radio setup, WX check, etc are required where a flight around a practice area usually doesn't.

 

[ahkahn]

I log everything engine on to engine off. It's it's hitting my wallet, it's hitting my logbook.

We had this discussion around a year ago or so and a bunch of jackalopes came in and started arguing things like "what if you start the engine and taxi back and forth throughout the airport for 2 hours and then take off"...

Now, you know technically, you can log XC for any airport of any distance... it just doesn't count towards ratings. For instance, I can log from 1C5 (home airport) to KLOT. It's about a 5 mile flight. It's XC by the definition in the FAR.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Block to block time,flying the hold actually usually extends the mileage.

Yes, but the excess mileage doesn't matter. The distance requirements for cross countries (with the exception of the special IFR dual cross country) are straight-line distances, not the distance you flew.

 

[fiveoboy01]

Makes sense, because a cross country requires a different process from the start: navigation, radio setup, WX check, etc are required where a flight around a practice area usually doesn't.

Generally a practice area flight requires all those things. Furthermore, I haven't heard of anyone hitting the practice area 50nm from the airport.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Generally a practice area flight requires all those things. Furthermore, I haven't heard of anyone hitting the practice area 50nm from the airport.

Really?
Your radios already has frequencies for your airport. No need to set those up.
You should not need charts, setup waypoints, VORs to get to your practice area I hope.
You should be able to see the weather and get back to the airport if it starts to change.

For those of us who live in congested areas might need to travel 50nm, I know do almost every time.

 

[oldShar]

Block to Block Time

(just a little Tit-for-tat: Afterall, if you did the missed and returned to A, it wouldn't even BE an XCTY, so take advantage of situation and log the whole as the XCTY)

 

[MotoFlier]

For those of us who live in congested areas might need to travel 50nm, I know do almost every time.

Wow, I can't imagine how expensive your training would be. My CFI said there is a big difference in cost between us at the towered strip and his students at the grass strip. And the practice area was right off the airport.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Wow, I can't imagine how expensive your training would be. My CFI said there is a big difference in cost between us at the towered strip and his students at the grass strip. And the practice area was right off the airport.

I'm not training any more, when I was it was about a 25nm trip in a 152.
Instrument training of course requires all the work of 3 cross countries (3 approaches), 80-100nm, 2 of which are low approaches.
In Florida the coasts from interstates out are heavily congested and traffic to match.