Is GA flying for transportation dead?

[rpadula]

I do not share your opinion on cost. I have the plane anyway, even if I don't fly it a single hour, it's going to cost me insurance + hangar + maintenance. If I didn't take the trip, I am still paying the mx+h+i. It cost me nothing extra except fuel and oil to fly it. When you take a trip by car, do you figure your cost at $0.39/mile, and your license plate fees, and your car insurance, and everything else? No. You figure it on your credit card receipt at the pump. Same with my plane, I already have it. The trip cost me <$450.

That's an interesting take Ed. So, essentially what you are saying is the plane is a "sunk cost", and the marginal costs of operation is all you acknowledge.

I like it. My costs now drastically went down!

Just think of how much Ed can save if he buys a refinery then!

 

[steingar]

Most of that peripatetic idiot's misguided diatribe focused on how much better the airlines are now. That was his main focus. At least his writing is somewhat better than most of their other columnists, although being able to write better than tenth grader is hardly an accomplishment.

 

[airguy]

I still fly long distances because it is more convenient and because I like to. It never has been cheaper. I really like being able to fly at the time I want to and to the airport that I want without waiting in any lines.

That's it, right there. I don't fly GA to beat the price (though I frequently do exactly that), I fly GA to set my own schedule, get in/out of the nearest airport to my business, and delete the whole obscene hassle of security, delays, and cattle-car airplanes.

I frequently travel between Midland and Tulsa, and I can match Southwest Airlines on door-to-door time with my 172 at about the same price. I give up the peanuts and a beer inflight, as well as the screaming toddlers and proctology exam at security, and replace them with the joy of piloting my own craft through the skies on my schedule, when and if I want to. 4AM departure for 7AM arrival? Not a problem - let's go. Last minute trip with no warning? 100LL didn't change price just because I couldn't buy it 2 weeks ahead of time. I still carry the same bags (though now they are not tossed about like the Samsonite commercials with the ape) and I am able to bring my concealed-carry without any hassle. I don't pack miniature-sized anything, I don't worry about a 50-pound bag limit (or number of bags) and I don't have to check my connecting flight to see if I have time to wolf down a bad plate of nachos before getting stuck on the cattle truck again for the next leg. On top of that, rental cars at Beech Tulsair are about half of what they charge at the main cattle terminal. Life is good.

Don't get me wrong - I prefer Southwest to any of the other airlines and fly them frequently - but I like my 172 more.

 

[Ted]

GA doesn't work very well if you're near a major hub and going to a major hub. It works great if you live in an area poorly served by airlines and going to another area poorly served by airlines. Reliability? I don't know, seems on the bad weather days the airlines are delayed. And on the good weather days. And everything in between.

If anything, GA makes more sense than ever before with poor airline service and improved avionics.

 

[hindsight2020]

For me the driving factor was utilization rate. If I only did the trip once a month I would drive the nine hours and forego the airplane ownership thing. But doubling that trip frequency makes it worth the airplane ride. Nine hours one way 2-3 weekends a month would be suicide. For podunk spoke to spoke (non-hub) destinations the block time for GA is ridiculously less than commercial. The commercial route would eat up the same amount as driving. commercial is only worth the aggravation for transcon. And to me that's a kind of commuting I wouldn't want to be doing with any level of frequency anyways, GA or no GA.

If anything I would say commercial flying has got worse, not better, as far as block time. The airport "in transit" time of flying commercial is out of hand. One connection missed and kiss your time efficiency good bye. A friend of mine missed her flight to go see me. Ended up driving after waiting for standby after standby. If she had driven at the 'o dark thirty hour she awoke to make the shuffle at the airport lines, she would have made it in less time than it took her in actuality. We don't all live in conveniently located hub to hub destinations, so the proverbial big city direct examples are hardly all-encompassing. Even places like San Antonio and Oklahoma City require connections from most places of origin.

Regarding how to look at costs, I still say the problem is gas. For the speeds I get on a warrior I should be burning 40-50% less gas or gas prices must match automotive pricing equivalents. these things are not efficient running at $6/gas. Mx is not my #1 cost driver, gas is. Sure, a blown motor would drive that to hell, but so would be the case if my jeep blew the motor too!

If I were to lower my utilization rate to price-fit the gas cost to my mx cost I wouldn't be able to justify keeping the thing around, I would just drive. But if I were to be able to pay $3.65 for gas on a 60 gallon round trip, I'd see a 40% reduction in operating costs YTD. Not insignificant.

Tell you one thing, you release these contraptions to "owner experimental" and you watch GA become much more operating cost competitive. I do think if there is a solution to the revitalization of GA it is "owner experimental". Nobody with a medical wants to throw money away on a $150K de facto Cessna 152 with pretty avionics. But a seasoned spam can worth 1/5 that and without the monopoly money parts cost nor the paperwork PMA scamjob would be a pretty competitive alternative, particularly for the 2+ passengers mission crowd.

 

[flyer]

The only reason I fly GA on trips is because it's my hobby. It's certainly not a practical means of transportation

Same here, I rarely fly the 172 for any trips anymore because of all the weather uncertainties and cost. For example I briefly thought about a short 2 hr x country tomorrow until I saw the weather forecast, so I will be driving again.

I just put around with it in the evenings when the winds let up and the atmosphere settles down from all the daytime heating. The only execption is when I fly to orginized fly ins like Oshkosh, otherwise I dont have much reason to be doing x countries.

 

[Jim Logajan]

If I and my wife need to get to SFO from EUG tomorrow, I can rent a C-172 at an estimated Hobbs time cost less than the airlines charge for two people. (We both do work for firms in the SF bay area so the scenario is not mythical at all.)

To reiterate what Ed said: GA is alive and viable as a transportation option in a bunch of scenarios even when time and cost are factored in.

 

[Jaybird180]

GA is becoming a quality of life enhancement for us. We live near a major hub so the airlines are less expensive for most trips, but we have a frequent trip to see family that isn't practical to go commercial. Driving is 3hrs or 1 and change by 172.

In years bygone, I would drive solo 10hrs annually to see my dad. Now, it's not very practical with a family that includes a toddler.

 

[Bob Noel]

If anything, GA makes more sense than ever before with poor airline service and improved avionics.

TSA.

'nuff said.

 

[jspilot]

If cost was the only determining factor in everyone's decisions we'd all be eating beef-a-roni each night instead of steak sometimes. My point in saying that is if you just use costs associated with things you can sometimes ignore value. For me, anyway, the value in GA is time saved. I live on Long Island NY where the traffic is just miserable to get anywhere, coupled with the frustration of looking at the same lame bumper sticker for hours on end, for me GA is worth it. Plus, considering it's an island I can take a short cut while flying by crossing the Long Island Sound at 3,500 feet as opposed to battle the traffic to cross the bridges. This lets me be in southern New England( Hartford CT for example)in 45 minutes renting a 172 at around 160 bucks an hour as opposed to that same trip taking almost 3 hours by car. Sure it is expensive but the 6 hours round trip in the car as opposed to maybe 2 hours round trip in the plane makes it worth every cent to me.

 

[DaleB]

Tell you one thing, you release these contraptions to "owner experimental" and you watch GA become much more operating cost competitive.

Oh, no joke!! Imagine how much more efficient even an old Cherokee could be with a modern ignition system, just for a start.

 

[Datadriver]

I do not share your opinion on cost. I have the plane anyway, even if I don't fly it a single hour, it's going to cost me insurance + hangar + maintenance. If I didn't take the trip, I am still paying the mx+h+i. It cost me nothing extra except fuel and oil to fly it. When you take a trip by car, do you figure your cost at $0.39/mile, and your license plate fees, and your car insurance, and everything else? No. You figure it on your credit card receipt at the pump. Same with my plane, I already have it. The trip cost me <$450.

You are forgetting reserve towards overhaul. That's at least $15/hr.

 

[N801BH]

http://macsblog.com/2012/06/is-ga-transportation-flying-dead/
.....Part of it is that we're no longer transporting four people everywhere. The fuel cost when divided by four of us looked a lot better than when we only divide it by 2 or 3 people.

It's sad, but IMHO until avgas comes down from the stratosphere, the "new normal" is a reality that is not conducive to/for personal air travel for any but the extremely wealthy.

Which, in turn, means that GA will continue it's slow downward spiral...

Jay..... Time to buy a RV....

 

[Datadriver]

Move to a cheaper part of the country.

But then you cant make the 125k

 

[kyleb]

I do not share your opinion on cost. I have the plane anyway, even if I don't fly it a single hour, it's going to cost me insurance + hangar + maintenance. If I didn't take the trip, I am still paying the mx+h+i. It cost me nothing extra except fuel and oil to fly it. When you take a trip by car, do you figure your cost at $0.39/mile, and your license plate fees, and your car insurance, and everything else? No. You figure it on your credit card receipt at the pump. Same with my plane, I already have it. The trip cost me <$450.

Your original point was that flying your plane was less expensive than flying commercial for some lengthy flights. My counterpoint is that if you got rid of the plane and flew commercial everywhere, you'd save money. If you choose to not consider a substantial portion of your annual costs on the airplane, of course the airplane starts looking better.

I recognize that my airplane is an irrational luxury. Like a membership at a country club, a high end sports car, or whatever. I get that. I'm comfortable with the lifestyle choice and the compromises it entails elsewhere.

 

[EdFred]

You are forgetting reserve towards overhaul. That's at least $15/hr.

No I'm not. See my post about overhaul funding and coming up short.

 

[EdFred]

Your original point was that flying your plane was less expensive than flying commercial for some lengthy flights. My counterpoint is that if you got rid of the plane and flew commercial everywhere, you'd save money. If you choose to not consider a substantial portion of your annual costs on the airplane, of course the airplane starts looking better.

I recognize that my airplane is an irrational luxury. Like a membership at a country club, a high end sports car, or whatever. I get that. I'm comfortable with the lifestyle choice and the compromises it entails elsewhere.

It would probably also be cheaper to take a bus or cab everywhere too, but I bet you don't argue that point vs car ownership. Technically my first flight hour cost me $45000. You should never buy a plane. It costs 5 figures an hour to operate!!!

 

[weilke]

Ah, the "sunk cost" argument. No disagreement that some costs are fixed - some of the MX is hour-dependent (at least on my plane).

Accounting - something folks will pretty much always argue about....

If I didn't subscribe to incremental cost accounting, I would have to bill myself $500 for a weekend of vegging out on the couch and watching tivoed cable shows. Between the allocated mortgage expense , the cable bill and the hourly depreciiation on the TV it is an expensive pasttime.

 

[Everskyward]

GA doesn't work very well if you're near a major hub and going to a major hub.

Right. I have come to the conclusion that I live in the worst possible city in the country to try to justify GA transportation by cost. But then I never went into it thinking of it as transportation. The two things that appealed to me were low and slow, looking at the scenery and manipulating the airplane in various ways. Now it's my source of income. That way other people get to think of it as transportation.

 

[wabower]

Sorry, but I've been in the investment banking and aviation consulting business way too long to accept that stuff.

The true financial analysis for rolling stock will never change. It's total money (all money, including purchase price) in minus total money out (all money, including any improvements, upgrades, engine overhauls, loss on sale) divided by usage expressed in hours, miles or whatever other units you choose. Always has been, always will be. Unfortunately, that number will only be known after the airplane is sold, but it's not difficult to prepare reasonable estimates based on available information from various sources.

That's not to say that you can't rationalize the costs any way that you choose, and it's certainly your right to count and/or ignore/omit any costs that you don't like to include. Just don't ask your CPA or financial advisor to agree, because none will.

I do not share your opinion on cost. I have the plane anyway, even if I don't fly it a single hour, it's going to cost me insurance + hangar + maintenance. If I didn't take the trip, I am still paying the mx+h+i. It cost me nothing extra except fuel and oil to fly it. When you take a trip by car, do you figure your cost at $0.39/mile, and your license plate fees, and your car insurance, and everything else? No. You figure it on your credit card receipt at the pump. Same with my plane, I already have it. The trip cost me <$450.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Sorry, but I've been in the investment banking and aviation consulting business way too long to accept that stuff.

The true financial analysis for rolling stock will never change. It's total money (all money, including purchase price) in minus total money out (all money, including any improvements, upgrades, engine overhauls, loss on sale) divided by usage expressed in hours, miles or whatever other units you choose. Always has been, always will be. Unfortunately, that number will only be known after the airplane is sold, but it's not difficult to prepare reasonable estimates based on available information from various sources.

That's not to say that you can't rationalize the costs any way that you choose, and it's certainly your right to count and/or ignore/omit any costs that you don't like to include. Just don't ask your CPA or financial advisor to agree, because none will.

Spoil sport.

You're right, of course. And that's precisely why GA has dropped so precipitously in the last 20 years, dang it. The return simply doesn't justify the costs, unless you're an addict like me (and most of y'all...).

 

[poadeleted21]

Spoil sport.

You're right, of course. And that's precisely why GA has dropped so precipitously in the last 20 years, dang it. The return simply doesn't justify the costs, unless you're an addict like me (and most of y'all...).

Have you priced a psychiatrist lately?

 

[Jay Honeck]

Have you priced a psychiatrist lately?

Excellent point.

Just ask Mary how I get when I haven't flown for a few weeks. Flying is CHEAP by comparison to the downsides of not flying!

 

[Bob Noel]

Sorry, but I've been in the investment banking and aviation consulting business way too long to accept that stuff.

The true financial analysis for rolling stock will never change. It's total money (all money, including purchase price) in minus total money out (all money, including any improvements, upgrades, engine overhauls, loss on sale) divided by usage expressed in hours, miles or whatever other units you choose. Always has been, always will be. Unfortunately, that number will only be known after the airplane is sold, but it's not difficult to prepare reasonable estimates based on available information from various sources.

That's not to say that you can't rationalize the costs any way that you choose, and it's certainly your right to count and/or ignore/omit any costs that you don't like to include. Just don't ask your CPA or financial advisor to agree, because none will.

As a layman, let me see if I understand. Are you sayingn that a CPA or financial advisor doesn't take into account incremental cost?

How would I calculate my cost of using my personal car for business trips?

How would the IRS calculate my cost of using my personal car for business trips?

 

[dennyleeb]

You pay extra for first class and flying private is even nicer so it is worth the money to me. My family and I love to travel in our plane. Cost usually does not contribute in the equation.

 

[bflynn]

And that's precisely why GA has dropped so precipitously in the last 20 years, dang it. The return simply doesn't justify the costs, unless you're an addict like me (and most of y'all...).

I'd say there's another reason - not to turn this into a 61.113 argument, but with the FAA's tightening of cost sharing, the pilot has to bear the full brunt of the cost for business travel with someone else. Plus the introduction of risk management at companies has pretty much shut down private flying for business except in aviation industries or private small business.

My coworker and I are flying to South Bend tomorrow from Raleigh as self-loading cattle. Ok, actually I'm flying to Midway on Southwest for $650 and driving to SB because going straight to South Bend is way too expensive even on expenses. It's going to take me about 6 hours to make the trip - time here, 2 hours in the air, time getting the car there, 2 hour drive to SB. If I flew myself in a club 172, it would take 4 hours and cost about $950 round trip.

So - our customer will pay $1300 for the two of us to make that trip instead of $950 and make us spend more time because 1) the FAA will not allow me to be reimbursed when carrying a passenger and 2) The company will not permit me to fly for them lest I crash and they get sued.

Those are the two blockers for me on business travel.

On personal travel - it's about the cost of fuel. Depending on where it's purchased, it's over 50% of the cost of flying now.

 

[Anthony]

In consider both incremental and total cost of plane ownership. I like to fly, so I do it when it makes sense from a time perspective.

It is true that fuel costs have really made it more difficult to justify.

 

[Dr. O]

Well, the fella on our field who put exactly one hour on his plane since the annual last year - A33 Debby - spends approx $10,000 an hour to fly (ouch)

Fuel (which is energy) is expensive.. I made two trips to Florida and back last year with the Duramax diesel pulling the boat... Fuel for each round trip was some $1200 - not including motels and meals for the four nights and five total days on the road ($400 motel plus 15 meals at roughly $375 or $775 total food making the trip $1975 and 5 days portal to portal... My car would do the trip for less fuel...

I need to go back down to our place this summer to inspect some remodeling work... If I fly the round trip to Venice and back I will burn $1630 of fuel and take 8 hours each way so not needing a hotel... I will need to rent a car for roughly $125 making the total $1775 and roughly (very) 16 hours portal to portal time...

Now the airline will need 5.5 hours each way and the two adult round trip tickets will be (looks like $425 is the average price this morning) $850 plus $125 for the car plus an extra two hours each way driving from Ft. Myers to Manasota Key and two hours on each end for the proctology exam makes it $975 and 19 hours portal to portal...

On balance the airliner wins...

 

[flyingron]

You generally don't read stuff like this from Mac (or any of the other paid GA writer) since this is the LAST thing any aircraft manufacturer wants to publicize.

Cessna (and any other division of Textron) will not allow employees to fly GA (other than a few RARELY used corporate-owned citations) on company business.

I still use the plane for transportation (albeit 90% of the time these days it's to come down to our place in NC). I can still beat the airlines most destinations in the Boston area. Further, flying into a lot destinations in the NE is still a win, We've gone to Booth Bay, ME (via Wiscasset), Cape Kennedy (via Titusville), Winston-Salem (for a wine convention), Cleveland-area (twice, once for a wine convention, once for a boat restoration course), etc... All of these would have been rather difficult via commercial air, our alternative would be to drive them.

 

[denverpilot]

J. Mac is an awful fit for a GA magazine/organization. They really need to dump him before he runs off even more sport aviators. He has no idea what sport aviation even is, let alone how it gets done by anyone.

 

[wabower]

Bad analogy and comparison. Let's say you live in the city and don't need (or choose) to own a car because you can walk, bike or use public transportation (cab, rent car, limo, subway, airlines) to achieve your normal travel needs. If you suddenly decide to buy a car instead of renting for weekend trips upstate, the calculation is identical to that used for the airplane.

For a suburbanite whose lifestyle requires a car for sake of practicality, car ownership becomes part of the fixed overhead. You might contend that you don't really need a car, but most wives object to taking a cab to the grocery store or to pick up kids at school. The car overhead can be managed based on the needs/wants of the owner, but a fact of life for most.

As you drive through most neighborhoods, just count the number of garages vs the number of hangars and the logic will be evident. :wink2:

Mileage costs for business use of personal cars is limited because the government understands this premise. You can calculate it any way you'd like, but the per-mile amount of money paid or deducted remains the same.

As a layman, let me see if I understand. Are you sayingn that a CPA or financial advisor doesn't take into account incremental cost?

How would I calculate my cost of using my personal car for business trips?

How would the IRS calculate my cost of using my personal car for business trips?

 

[somorris]

Like most things in life, you pay your money and make you choice. I don't try very hard to financially justify the things I do in life. You only live once.

 

[AcroBoy]

Depending on the connections, a trip of 1,000 miles or less can be faster than a commercial flight. This does not include traveling to the airport with commercial flights, checking in luggage, waiting for TSA screening, etc, or collecting luggage at the far end, and then arranging local transportation.

Yesterday, I went from Wisconsin to northern Florida in less than six hours, including a fuel stop. The flying time was two hours longer than the best connection commercially, but the total time was less if you include all of the above. I will get reimbursed at the rate of around $0.96 a mile, so even if I lose money flying a twin, it isn't that bad.

Of course, it also is an opportunity to fly, use the plane as a business expense, work in the system, and dodge weather, fly approaches, and navigate around thunderstorms.

So, it will never be economical, but it can save time, a factor that needs to be included.

 

[Bob Noel]

Bad analogy and comparison. Let's say you live in the city and don't need (or choose) to own a car because you can walk, bike or use public transportation (cab, rent car, limo, subway, airlines) to achieve your normal travel needs. If you suddenly decide to buy a car instead of renting for weekend trips upstate, the calculation is identical to that used for the airplane.

For a suburbanite whose lifestyle requires a car for sake of practicality, car ownership becomes part of the fixed overhead. You might contend that you don't really need a car, but most wives object to taking a cab to the grocery store or to pick up kids at school. The car overhead can be managed based on the needs/wants of the owner, but a fact of life for most.

As you drive through most neighborhoods, just count the number of garages vs the number of hangars and the logic will be evident. :wink2:

Mileage costs for business use of personal cars is limited because the government understands this premise. You can calculate it any way you'd like, but the per-mile amount of money paid or deducted remains the same.

Have they changed the rules re mileage deduction? I haven't looked at it for quite some time. In the 70's, I had the choice of calculating actual cost for business reimbursement (with some limits wrt purchase/owning costs) or just taking the mileage allowance.

Mileage costs for business use of personal cars actually pays for more than just the gas.

The bottomline is that if I already have an airplane, the cost comparison vs going by airline is the incremental cost. Anything else is just pushing numbers around on paper.

 

[wabower]

To the contrary, the bottom line is that short of inheritance or other benevolence nobody "already has an airplane" without financial consequence any more than they "already have a Beemer." At some time they bought it, at which time the meter started to run insofar as own/op costs are concerned.

Your right to recognize only those that you wish to acknowledge is not in question.

The bottomline is that if I already have an airplane, the cost comparison vs going by airline is the incremental cost. Anything else is just pushing numbers around on paper.

 

[MSPAviator]

I flew this trip last 4th of July in a Cessna 152. If I remember right, it was about 4.6 hrs. on the Hobbs. $75/hr (incl. tax) = $345.

Drove to PNM to pick up the plane, flew down to LVN to pick up my girlfriend, flew to SUW for lunch, flew to ASX for fuel, camped out at 4R5 for the weekend and flew back to PNM after watching the fireworks. 4.6hrs of flying.

http://skyvector.com/?ll=46.6539097...173211:A.K5.KSUW:A.K5.KASX:A.K5.4R5:A.K3.KPNM

According to Google Maps, an equivalent drive direct to La Pointe, WI and skipping Superior, WI altogether, would be 480 miles or 9 hours & 50 minutes.

@ 22mpg on premium gasoline, 22.81 gallons * $3.70 = $80.72. Add $50 hours for the Madeline Island Ferry and 4 hours roundtrip to wait and ride the ferry. That's $130.72 in direct costs, not counting maintenance costs or insurance.

http://madferry.com/ferry-information-schedule

That's potentially 14 hours of driving. 14 hours of frustrating single lane rural WI roads. Stuck behind slow RV campers and old people in Buicks. Watching out for deer & State Patrol.

SCREW THAT, WE'RE FLYING!!!!

 

[Jay Honeck]

J. Mac is an awful fit for a GA magazine/organization. They really need to dump him before he runs off even more sport aviators. He has no idea what sport aviation even is, let alone how it gets done by anyone.

I agree. I like the way Mac writes, and it's occasionally interesting to read about what it's like to fly the way he flies -- but it's so far removed from the way I fly that it's usually not relevant to me.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Cessna (and any other division of Textron) will not allow employees to fly GA (other than a few RARELY used corporate-owned citations) on company business.

That, my friends, is pathetic, and truly highlights the current state of our sport, and the regard in which it is held by even the aircraft manufacturers themselves.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Jay..... Time to buy a RV....

Agreed! Find me an RV-8A!

 

[Jay Honeck]

Like most things in life, you pay your money and make you choice. I don't try very hard to financially justify the things I do in life. You only live once.

It was easier to think that way before I had two kids in college, and an old hotel to renovate.