Is experimental the future?

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Tmpendergrass

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Tmpendergrass
With costs continuing to rise in aviation, is experimental the future for GA?


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Either experimentals or the new "Non Certified" category.

Thanks for the troll thread. ;)
 
Excuse my ignorance, but by "non certified" are you referring to the small plane revitalization act?


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"Are experimentals the future ?" - when have they not been ?
 
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I'm really hoping that the small plane revitalization act will help out our end of GA, but I'm not holding my breath. But one can hope ;)
 
Yes, certified planes can't touch some experimentals in speed, fuel burn, and costs.
 
PBristolJr said:
Yes, certified planes can't touch some experimentals in speed, fuel burn, and costs.
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Very true, but they usually do so at the expense of payload and space. I have to admit I love experimentals but they just don't work for me since I use my plane for business travel and need the extra luggage space. I have a couple of friends with RV's, one has a Thorp T18 and another a Cozy. All of those planes are so much fun to fly in and they are like little sports cars with great performance, but unfortunately none of them have the room I need. The Cozy would come the closest, but it is still a bit tight too.
 
Just about universally, any time you remove government regulations from a product or market, the product or market involved will improve.
 
MickYoumans said:
Very true, but they usually do so at the expense of payload and space. I have to admit I love experimentals but they just don't work for me since I use my plane for business travel and need the extra luggage space. I have a couple of friends with RV's, one has a Thorp T18 and another a Cozy. All of those planes are so much fun to fly in and they are like little sports cars with great performance, but unfortunately none of them have the room I need. The Cozy would come the closest, but it is still a bit tight too.
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Sound to me like you've successfully identified a market for a new experimental kit. Time to tool up and start production! :yes:
 
No the future is FPV RC. Moms of America approve. Sad but true.
 
airguy said:
Just about universally, any time you remove government regulations from a product or market, the product or market involved will improve.
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So we have the free market to thank for the vastly increased safety of new automobiles, all of which were forced onto a kicking and screaming auto industry?
 
FormerHangie said:
So we have the free market to thank for the vastly increased safety of new automobiles, all of which were forced onto a kicking and screaming auto industry?
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I didn't see where he equated safer with better.
 
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Hoping for the revitalization act ,so can use some of the experimental stuff in my certified liberty. Competition from the experimental group can only be good for GA.
 
Sadly, experimental is likely the future and that future is tenuous. GA for the general populace, is on it's death bed. DIY kits aren't going to revive it.
 
Dav8or said:
Sadly, experimental is likely the future and that future is tenuous. GA for the general populace, is on it's death bed. DIY kits aren't going to revive it.
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I took my grandson on a flight -- he placed with his game-boy throughout it, hardly looked out the window.

During a Young Eagle event, quote from one of the young flyers after getting out of his free ride: "Flight Simulator was more fun."

GA aviation is not yet dead. But it will become more and more a specialty activity such as those who go deer hunting with blackpowder rifles or other vintage weapons.

In the meantime, Wheee -- I enjoy flying.
 
tinerj said:
I took my grandson on a flight -- he placed with his game-boy throughout it, hardly looked out the window.

During a Young Eagle event, quote from one of the young flyers after getting out of his free ride: "Flight Simulator was more fun."

GA aviation is not yet dead. But it will become more and more a specialty activity such as those who go deer hunting with blackpowder rifles or other vintage weapons.

In the meantime, Wheee -- I enjoy flying.
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he liked the simulator sounds like a prick from a really young age!
 
tinerj said:
I took my grandson on a flight -- he placed with his game-boy throughout it, hardly looked out the window.

During a Young Eagle event, quote from one of the young flyers after getting out of his free ride: "Flight Simulator was more fun."

GA aviation is not yet dead. But it will become more and more a specialty activity such as those who go deer hunting with blackpowder rifles or other vintage weapons.

In the meantime, Wheee -- I enjoy flying.
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Part of the reason I stopped doing YE. Kids are seldom appreciative of the opportunity particularly when it's the parents looking for something free to do with the kid on a Saturday morning. Not even free gas for the cumulative wear and tear 50 of these Nintendo DS carrying types put on my already cosmetically challenged Arrow. The thing may look like a rental, but it's not a rental, it's my avocation which I work hard for.

The fact remains my parents were bona fide pedestrians and I didn't do a single incentive flight as a kid and I still went on and pursued it as an adult. Furthermore, as the airline hiring dynamics illustrate, they'll never be a pilot shortage, so there's really no National Welfare and Security agenda to protect. The only thing we can do is hold on to our avocation as best we can. The 1960s are never coming back from a production standpoint.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Part of the reason I stopped doing YE. Kids are seldom appreciative of the opportunity particularly when it's the parents looking for something free to do with the kid on a Saturday morning. Not even free gas for the cumulative wear and tear 50 of these Nintendo DS carrying types put on my already cosmetically challenged Arrow. The thing may look like a rental, but it's not a rental, it's my avocation which I work hard for.

The fact remains my parents were bona fide pedestrians and I didn't do a single incentive flight as a kid and I still went on and pursued it as an adult. Furthermore, as the airline hiring dynamics illustrate, they'll never be a pilot shortage, so there's really no National Welfare and Security agenda to protect. The only thing we can do is hold on to our avocation as best we can. The 1960s are never coming back from a production standpoint.
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I've had a mixed bag. My next door neighbor would come running with his car seat in tow if he saw me come out the back door with my flight bag. 2 of the 3 loved it. The 3rd just wanted to tag along so he could play with my iPhone.

The last 2 kids I took up were brats. The most shocking thing about it was that the parents seemed oblivous to just how awful their kids were. If my kids acted like that, I certianly wouldn't allow them to be around other people to witness their nonsense. For instance, their grandfather told them to thank me for taking them to which one replied "no, I hated it". My grandfather, mother, father, uncle, 3rd cousin twice removed all would have knocked me back into last week if I said something like that.
 
MickYoumans said:
The RV-10 is a four seater that might work but I haven't actually flown in one (yet).
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Plenty of room for occupants but not much baggage space. We are 1656 EW, 2700 GW. With my family, 80 lbs of baggage, 60 gal of 100LL, we are at GW. Mine is one of the lighter ones. Four normal sized adults...forget it.
 
RV10flyer said:
Plenty of room for occupants but not much baggage space. We are 1656 EW, 2700 GW. With my family, 80 lbs of baggage, 60 gal of 100LL, we are at GW. Mine is one of the lighter ones. Four normal sized adults...forget it.
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My gross weight in my 10 is 2800. ;)
 
Small Airports depend on fuel sales, maintenance and other forms of income that experimental aircraft owners use very little of. Small airports are up against lots of problems that threaten their very existence. If the future of GA is experimental then the future of GA is bleak.
 
brien23 said:
Small Airports depend on fuel sales, maintenance and other forms of income that experimental aircraft owners use very little of. Small airports are up against lots of problems that threaten their very existence. If the future of GA is experimental then the future of GA is bleak.
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I'd guess the #1 issue threatening small airports is urban expansion.

My home airport has probably 25% of the hangar space taken up by RV's, Yaks, Crazy Pitts pilots who want to run a different prop, and those guys are all paying 3000-4000 per year for a hangar. Most run 100LL, because its convenient and when the plane only burns 8gph anyway, you would only save a little more than 10 bucks an hour on mogas. I know lot of them have the on-airport A&P do the condition inspection every year too.

I think the biggest benefit to experimental aircraft is the cost of non-certified avionics and parts. Also the ability to do routine maintenance yourself - like replacing an alternator or starter.
 
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Self serve gas is an indication that ,pilots are cheap,and FBO s can not live on av gas sales alone. I try to purchase gas at every airport I visit.
 
dell30rb said:
I'd guess the #1 issue threatening small airports is urban expansion.

My home airport has probably 25% of the hangar space taken up by RV's, Yaks, Crazy Pitts pilots who want to run a different prop, and those guys are all paying 3000-4000 per year for a hangar. Most run 100LL, because its convenient and when the plane only burns 8gph anyway, you would only save a little more than 10 bucks an hour on mogas. I know lot of them have the on-airport A&P do the condition inspection every year too.

I think the biggest benefit to experimental aircraft is the cost of non-certified avionics and parts. Also the ability to do routine maintenance yourself - like replacing an alternator or starter.
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8 gph is not going to replace the 30 gph of a twin that sucks up 100 + gal per fill up and those who supply their own mogas. And you are on spot with the biggest benefit to experimental aircraft is the cost of non-certified avionics and parts. Also the ability to do routine maintenance yourself - like replacing an alternator or starter. Not sure how you expect that to help keep the doors open at your local airport.
 
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brien23 said:
Not sure how you expect that to help keep the doors open at your local airport.
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Inexpensive experimental aircraft is not going to take anything away from business, charter and personal flying with de-iced turbo twins, turboprops and jets. They're a separate kind of owner/mission.

The only difference in revenue for the airport from a guy operating a 172 vs an RV-6 is that the average guy with an RV is going to do minor work like the aforementioned alternator himself. These experimental aircraft owners are still paying for hangar, tiedown fees, annual inspections, major work, avionics work, fuel. I would guess 80% of the experimentals use 100LL.

I'm legally allowed to do 100% of the work on my cars, i'm mechanically inclined and I have a good set of tools/manuals. But I still use shops for maintenance that I don't have time for, don't want to do, don't have tools for.
 
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We are supposed to fly inefficient expensive junk to keep someone else in business? Nutz I say. The experimental guys are the hardcore aviators and if their crappy paved county airport gets shuttered they are the types that would raise money to open a grass strip. For themselves. They are doing the lazy certified and GA commercial folks a favor by sticking around at county airports and putting up with stupid security and hangar rules. You should thank those guys it is their operation counts that keep the money flowing in.
brien23 said:
8 gph is not going to replace the 30 gph of a twin that sucks up 100 + gal per fill up and those who supply their own mogas. And you are on spot with the biggest benefit to experimental aircraft is the cost of non-certified avionics and parts. Also the ability to do routine maintenance yourself - like replacing an alternator or starter. Not sure how you expect that to help keep the doors open at your local airport.
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MickYoumans said:
The RV-10 is a four seater that might work but I haven't actually flown in one (yet).
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There is an RV-10 at my airport. The guy built it himself. I think it's a nice plane, but it still had that "home built" look to the doors and some interior panels. I'm sure they can be done nicer, but it didn't sit well with me. Probably more my ignorance than anything else.
 
rbridges said:
There is an RV-10 at my airport. The guy built it himself. I think it's a nice plane, but it still had that "home built" look to the doors and some interior panels. I'm sure they can be done nicer, but it didn't sit well with me. Probably more my ignorance than anything else.
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The interiors are anything you want. Lots of builders are out of money by the time interiors and paint are scheduled. ;)

Come to OSH and take a look at the RV-10 area. ;)
 
Geico266 said:
The interiors are anything you want. Lots of builders are out of money by the time interiors and paint are scheduled. ;)

Come to OSH and take a look at the RV-10 area. ;)
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I saw one on barnstormers that I fell in love with. Really nice throughout. I thought maybe it was the difference b/t pictures and actually seeing one up close.

If I went experimental and could afford one, I'd seriously consider a 10.
 
ClimbnSink said:
We are supposed to fly inefficient expensive junk to keep someone else in business? Nutz I say. The experimental guys are the hardcore aviators and if their crappy paved county airport gets shuttered they are the types that would raise money to open a grass strip. For themselves. They are doing the lazy certified and GA commercial folks a favor by sticking around at county airports and putting up with stupid security and hangar rules. You should thank those guys it is their operation counts that keep the money flowing in.
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Is there a saying that could be explained as 'those who find faults with other people tend to be blind to their own faults?' As with people who are picky; their criticism of others often applies to themselves.
 
brien23 said:
Is there a saying that could be explained as 'those who find faults with other people tend to be blind to their own faults?' As with people who are picky; their criticism of others often applies to themselves.
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Superlative defense of your ideas.:lol:
 
You know, the cost savings benefits of experimentals is a little over hyped. I have often thought about going to experimental to save on flying expenses, but when I do the math, it's really not that huge of a savings.

  • The storage costs the same.
  • The fuel costs the same.
  • The insurance is the same, or even higher depending.
  • If you didn't build it yourself, the annual costs the same.
  • The airplanes themselves on the used market costs the same.
It's the repairs and upgrades that are cheaper. You can do the work yourself and save money on the labor. Otherwise paying for a repair, will cost the same in labor. The parts enjoy anywhere from a 10-40% discount over certified, depending on what it is. So, there are savings to be had.

But... how often do you actually have to do a repair, or plan upgrades?

Certified plane owners can find an IA to sign off on their own work. so if you really want to save on labor costs, this is an option. It still costs more than the experimental because you still have to hire an IA to sign off, but it probably does result in a 70-80% reduction in labor costs.

In the big scheme of aircraft ownership, going experimental is only going to save you maybe 10-15% over the life of ownership, if even that. No, the big allure to experimental is the shedding of much of the government oversight and red tape. In addition, E/AB brings many more choices of aircraft to the market. Not so much just to save money.

Oh and if you absolutely must have a brand new airplane, custom tailored to your specs, then there are huge savings to had in experimentals.
 
ClimbnSink said:
We are supposed to fly inefficient expensive junk to keep someone else in business? Nutz I say. The experimental guys are the hardcore aviators and if their crappy paved county airport gets shuttered they are the types that would raise money to open a grass strip. For themselves. They are doing the lazy certified and GA commercial folks a favor by sticking around at county airports and putting up with stupid security and hangar rules. You should thank those guys it is their operation counts that keep the money flowing in.
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What a load of romantic BS!:rolleyes2: A very large percentage of these "hard core aviators" don't even fly, don't buy gas and so don't contribute to the upkeep of airport as much as us lazy people do. What about those grass strips? Why doesn't the EAA go on a grass strip building spree across the nation? I'm sure it would be easy to raise the funds and get the work done with so many hard working, hard core aviators on hand! Think of it! You could do zoom climbs, snap rolls 100' off the deck, overhead breaks, you name it! And no annoying, lazy, spam can driving boobs in the way, or to complain. Paradise I tell you!:rofl:
 
Dav8or said:
What about those grass strips? Why doesn't the EAA go on a grass strip building spree across the nation? I'm sure it would be easy to raise the funds and get the work done with so many hard working, hard core aviators on hand!
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Bunch of certified planes based there too, but the local EAA chapter here is based at a grass strip. The chapter is very active and lots of experimental building and flying going on. The EAA chapter is probably the most active GA organization in the area. I'm a member even though I don't regularly fly an experimental, but most of the guys do.
 
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