Is a Tailwheel Endorsement worth it?

RyanB

RyanB

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My school offers a TW endorsement for 1650.00 in their Super D. Are there really any big benefits to getting it, if i dont really plan to fly tailwheel? As far as for a safety perspective?
 
Tailwheel aircraft are much less tolerant of stick and rudder errors or sloppiness so tw work can force you to improve in those areas. However, you can have good stick and rudder skills in a tri-gear aircraft and practice them with things like dutch rolls, falling leaf stalls, crosswind landings, etc.
 
As far as the "worth it", is learning an additional skill in the airplane worth the money to you? As you say, you won't be using it in the foreseeable future and my point is that you can improve skills in a tri-gear. For me, the answer would be yes, if I can readily afford it.
 
Ryanb said:
My school offers a TW endorsement for 1650.00 in their Super D. Are there really any big benefits to getting it, if i dont really plan to fly tailwheel? As far as for a safety perspective?
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A Citabria/Decathalon is not really a good TW trainer IMO. If you don't plan to fly TW much, the biggest benefit is from time spent making an unstable short-coupled plane do what you think you are telling it to do- everything else is easy after that!
 
Ryanb said:
My school offers a TW endorsement for 1650.00 in their Super D. Are there really any big benefits to getting it, if i dont really plan to fly tailwheel? As far as for a safety perspective?
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IMO, no. As others have said, you can develop all of the skill other than the runway skills on trigear aircraft. The only thing you miss is the opportunity to fly some interesting aircraft, which may not be of importance to you.

Sez the guy with ~1,000 TW hours.
 
How often are you gonna fly a tailwheel? If less than once per month, then why bother, you will fall out of currency and have to do it all over again anyway. If you are getting a job flying in Alaska taking tourists out to see bears and are flying an STOL tail dragger, then sure, go for it.
 
Maybe not a huge benefit to it. But you might have a lot of fun. It might open your eyes to the joys of flight beyond spam cans.

I had a blast getting mine in a Citabria. Also took the opportunity to fly "blind" from the rear seat and learn basic aerobatics and upset recovery.
 
I was in the middle of my tailwheel training when I went down to do a BFR (actually it was the old style wings weekend). The instructor was quite impressed with how good my crosswind inputs were on the ground and I pointed out that I'd been flying tail draggers that week.

Yeah, you'll learn not to be so sloppy on certain aspects.
 
Part of the answer should really include a statement of whether or not the person answering has received the tailwheel endorsement (or at least went a ways into it).

So here goes. After more than 20 years of flying, I received my tailwheel endorsement last week. I will most likely not fly a tailwheel regularly. I consider the experience and the uncovering and honing of sloppy landing habits I accumulated through the years to be among the best training I have received.

YRMV
 
midlifeflyer said:
Part of the answer should really include a statement of whether or not the person answering has received the tailwheel endorsement (or at least went a ways into it).
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I never got a tailwheel endorsement because I learned to fly in a Cessna 120 back in the '70s (I have very few nosewheel hours).

To answer the original question - do what you want to do. If you want to go play in a Super D (and there are way worse ways to spend your money) then go for it. If not, then why bother?

If you think that learning to fly a tailwheel makes you a superior pilot, then you aint't never rode with me.

The key to a tailwheel is to keep the airplane pointed in the direction you want it to go. Other than that... :dunno:
 
kyleb said:
IMO, no. As others have said, you can develop all of the skill other than the runway skills on trigear aircraft.
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You CAN, but the reality is that the vast majority don't, and tailwheel will force you to get better.
 
Ryanb said:
My school offers a TW endorsement for 1650.00 in their Super D. Are there really any big benefits to getting it, if i dont really plan to fly tailwheel? As far as for a safety perspective?
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1650 is a good chunk of cash, that'll buy you some hours in your main rig.

Will they rent you their super D solo after? If the answer is "no" I wouldn't even think about it.

Also if you're not going to be renting tailwheel aircraft it's not really necessary, also if you're not going to be putting some stick time in after that endorsement in a tailwheel those skills will rust super fast.

As to the guy that said you can get the same tailwheel skills with a trike on a long runway, he's wrong.
 
If your trained to only land it and take off in calm conditions you won't learn much. If however you are shown how to control any tail wheel airplane in a 15 mph crosswind, ( 90 degrees, not ten or twenty! ) and you can do soft, short field take offs and landings , 3 point and wheel landings, I think you'll find it's not only worth while but a lot of fun. As for a decathlon or Citabria being easy to control, try it for yourself in the above conditions and see what you think. The correct instructor will make all the difference. If he's low time in taildraggers, under 1000 hours, pass. You need a real pro to get your money's worth. If you get 100 hours in taildraggers, it's like riding a bike. You will not forget how to do it. Either a decathlon or a Citabria would be an excellent aircraft. If you've got the dough, do it.
 
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Getting your tailwheel endorsement may or may not be worth it...but truly being proficient in tailwheel aircraft is absolutely worth it. The endorsement is only the beginning of the learning process.
 
I am definetly interested just not sure if its worth the money since i dont plan to make much use of it, we'll see
 
Ryanb said:
My school offers a TW endorsement for 1650.00 in their Super D. Are there really any big benefits to getting it, if i dont really plan to fly tailwheel? As far as for a safety perspective?
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If you don't plan to use it and regularly if I were you I wouldn't bother. Your new skills would deteriorate if you didn't use 'em.

John C Saubak, just over 6,000 hours all but about 50 of those hours in tailwheels.
 
I have 0.3 hours of tail wheel time in the left seat of a B-17. Granted it was all at 4,500 MSL, but I logged it. ;). So 100% of my multi-engine and TW time is in a B-17. I don't think I want to dirty up my logbook with a mere single engine tail wheel aircraft. :)
 
nddons said:
I have 0.3 hours of tail wheel time in the left seat of a B-17. Granted it was all at 4,500 MSL, but I logged it. ;). So 100% of my multi-engine and TW time is in a B-17. I don't think I want to dirty up my logbook with a mere single engine tail wheel aircraft. :)
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So what are you trying to imply? that you were allowed to sit in the grown ups seat of a B17 for a few minutes? I would not have logged it either. It's really difficult for someone who does not have a tail wheel endorsement to comment as they have no idea what they are talking about. It definitely makes any pilot a better pilot and only those who have never trained this way or have under 100 hours in one make these absurd statements to the contrary.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
So what are you trying to imply? that you were allowed to sit in the grown ups seat of a B17 for a few minutes? I would not have logged it either. It's really difficult for someone who does not have a tail wheel endorsement to comment as they have no idea what they are talking about. It definitely makes any pilot a better pilot and only those who have never trained this way or have under 100 hours in one make these absurd statements to the contrary.
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Sorry, and here I thought you were just a ******** the Spin Zone. I guess it's just your everyday personality.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
. The correct instructor will make all the difference. If he's low time in taildraggers, under 1000 hours, pass. You need a real pro to get your money's worth.
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Meh, yes and no

I've got about 1500ish tailwheel, I'll say that you'd want a guy with at least 500hrs tailwheel, and he should be putting on a hundred plus hours a year tailwheel, not some old dude that has 1000 tailwheel from 1970 to now.

I'd also want a guy who worked tailwheels outside of teaching, beach landings, AG work, long x-countries into airports he's no familiar with, gross weight ops, REAL short field work.

By the time you finish you should have done

2pt and 3pt equally as well, same app speed BTW.
Know when to 2pt and when to 3pt
Landed in x-winds beyond the max demo
Tailwind landing
Flown a pattern with no instruments (no ASI, ALT etc)
Full short, soft and regular landings.
Dragged one wheel down the runway, then the other.
Slipped the snot out of the plane.

That's about all that comes to mind right now.

He should also have you solo after giving you your endorsment.
 
nddons said:
Sorry, and here I thought you were just a ******** the Spin Zone. I guess it's just your everyday personality.
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Some people just flat cannot detect sarcasm and don't have a humorous bone in their body.
 
JoeSelch said:
Maybe not a huge benefit to it. But you might have a lot of fun. It might open your eyes to the joys of flight beyond spam cans.

I had a blast getting mine in a Citabria. Also took the opportunity to fly "blind" from the rear seat and learn basic aerobatics and upset recovery.
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I agree with the comments regarding the stick and rudder skills and tricycle geared aircraft. The problem is your typical Cherokee or Skyhawk are not very demanding when it comes to this stuff and, as such, a lot of guys never really develop those skills to a very high level.

I'm of the opinion that additional training of any sort never hurts, so my recommendation would be to go for it and try to tie it into a basic aerobatic/extreme upset recovery course. The safety benefits would be huge.

For planning purposes, I'd also suggest you look at getting some glider training at some point. The carry over to you power flying will benefit all of the flying you do in the future.
 
Ryanb said:
My school offers a TW endorsement for 1650.00 in their Super D. Are there really any big benefits to getting it, if i dont really plan to fly tailwheel? As far as for a safety perspective?
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Tailwheel airplanes are fun. If your school has them for rent, don't be surprised if you find yourself wanting to continue flying them after you get your endorsement.

I also think you're likely to get $1650 worth of fun in the process of getting the endorsement.
 
Crosswind experience in a light tailwheel is a blast and very good training for crosswind in larger airplanes. See if you can go down the runway on one wheel, leaning that airplane into the wind. you need 10-14 knots of wind to do it in most.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Crosswind experience in a light tailwheel is a blast and very good training for crosswind in larger airplanes. See if you can go down the runway on one wheel, leaning that airplane into the wind. you need 10-14 knots of wind to do it in most.
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Back when I was training in the B727, I had the chief pilot tell me he could always tell if a guy had TW time or not by the way he handled the -72. His inference was that guys with TW time did a better job. The skills that you develop in small aircraft are not lost as you move up the ladder. Sully attested to that when he spoke about his glider experience. When it comes to additional training - it's all good.
 
Price seems steep, if you are in the middle of amassing ratings with no opportunity to fly a TW I'd pass. Pick it up as part of a flight review in two years. If some how you get access to a TW plane if you just have the endorsement and a few hours insurance and common sense are going to have do some time in the new plane, in that case you could just do all of it.
 
RoscoeT said:
Dude his post was total sarcasm. You are dense.
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Thanks. Actually it is true, and was supposed to be a humerous anecdote. I flew in Aluminum Overcast when it repositioned from Waukesha to Springfield last year. I got left seat time, and as a once in a lifetime opportunity, I logged it, and had the pilot sign my logbook.

So little Jimmy was either intentionally being a little ****, or he's dense.
 
The tailwheel endorsement ultimately ended up costing me in excess of 60 grand, but now I cruise cross country at 190-200 mph instead of 120mph. Worth it? Every penny! :D
 
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If you don't see yourself ever flying tailwheel, not really any practical reason to get it and your money is probably better spent towards an instrument rating or other higher rating. I did it just because it was cheap and in a cool plane(J-3 Cub). I would say the Super D gets a few cool points, especially if you are gonna throw some aerobatics in there as well. But I had some money to burn at the time. In the 5 years I've had it I've got a whopping 20 hours of tailwheel time.
 
Ryanb said:
My school offers a TW endorsement for 1650.00 in their Super D. Are there really any big benefits to getting it, if i dont really plan to fly tailwheel? As far as for a safety perspective?
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Will it get you checked out to rent the plane? Can you get aerobatic instruction at the same time/price? If the answer to the second is yes, then yes. If the answer to the first and second is yes, the **** yes.

If it does not include aerobatic instruction and you will not be able to rent the plane solo and have no access to a TW plane or intention of buying one, then no, the endorsement won't serve you $1650 dollars worth for what I am assuming will be 8-10 hrs.

Even if you can't rent the plane though, the 8-10hrs of Aerobatics will serve you better when the **** hits the fan than all the rest of the training you have had combined. That is where you learn the limits and capabilities of what a plane can do, and you really learn to feel the energy and control it precisely by learning to anticipate it. What you are doing is programming the AHRS that resides in your brain, and that never goes away, it is the best value in aviation safety because you will be able to confidently and competently decelerate yourself to your minimum controllable energy to coincide with the moment of impact, and that is the key to having a survivable crash.

Tailwheel on it's own teaches you about the rudder in case your 250hr CFI didn't. There is nothing about Tailwheel operations that a competent CFI can't teach you in a Tricycle, and in reality you will pick up in your IR rating if your CFII is worth a crap. The only thing a Tailwheel adds to the scenario really is the potential for punishment for not having a good primary CFI. The nose wheel makes it irrelevant because the CG is forward of the yaw axis therefore inherently stable. Tallwheel the CG is aft of the yaw axis and inherently unstable with divergent force, which means the further out you let the tail get, the more leverage your CG gets and the harder it is to stop the swing. So if to don't catch it in time, you lose the ability to stop the swing and have what is termed a ground loop. The cost of that ranges between some pride and a totaled airplane.
Again, made irrelevant by flying tricycles. That was why the first wheeled planes were trikes. The didn't go to a tail wheel until Tractor designs and they needed to get prop clearance on unimproved fields.

BTW, what the Tailwheel punishes you for not learning is to lead everything with the rudder. Rudder is your primary control surface in the horizontal plane, and also is needed to correct for prop factors making changes in the vertical plane.
 
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Here is a question for those who say "If you're not going to fly tailwheel after, don't waste the money." Would you say the same about a single engine seaplane rating? By comparison, the weekend seaplane courses are about the same cost. Very few people fly seaplanes after their checkride.
 
CFI AandP said:
Here is a question for those who say "If you're not going to fly tailwheel after, don't waste the money." Would you say the same about a single engine seaplane rating? By comparison, the weekend seaplane courses are about the same cost. Very few people fly seaplanes after their checkride.
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I think you nailed it. Whether an endorsement or rating or even just some experience in something different that you won't be flying regularly is worth it is a highly personal decision. Some of us are more "practical" than others. ("Practical" is in quotes since there is not much "practical" about most of personal aviation to begin with :D).
 
CFI AandP said:
Here is a question for those who say "If you're not going to fly tailwheel after, don't waste the money." Would you say the same about a single engine seaplane rating? By comparison, the weekend seaplane courses are about the same cost. Very few people fly seaplanes after their checkride.
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I would say the same thing I said about the TW endorsement. If you are wanting to get all your ratings to fly for a living(which I am assuming he is) concentrate on those first. If you are just flying for fun, absolutely go ahead and do it.
 
CFI AandP said:
Here is a question for those who say "If you're not going to fly tailwheel after, don't waste the money." Would you say the same about a single engine seaplane rating? By comparison, the weekend seaplane courses are about the same cost. Very few people fly seaplanes after their checkride.
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No, lol, your seaplane rating will be the most fun flying you ever do.:D The Beech 18 on floats for MES my old boss payed for that, but if I had to crack out $5k for 3 days, yeah, it would still be worth it. SES was a hoot and a half and I combined the ride with SE Commercial L&S in a Lake Bucaneer, so it was a good deal as well as a lot of fun since I got both for the same price on the same ride.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think you nailed it. Whether an endorsement or rating or even just some experience in something different that you won't be flying regularly is worth it is a highly personal decision. Some of us are more "practical" than others. ("Practical" is in quotes since there is not much "practical" about most of personal aviation to begin with :D).
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Well, I was really pointing out that SES ratings are very popular for flight reviews and other ways to expand one's flying experience. The same can be said about tailwheel. Yet, people will encourage people to do a weekend seaplane course knowing they'll never touch floats again. However those same people will discourage tailwheel training for one reason or another. Both have the similar training costs and limited access after training. I earned my tailwheel endorsement right after my private and have had great success with it.

Additional training is always a good idea, with a practical application. Although if someone were to go spend $1500 at a drop zone for skydiving training in preparation for the slim chance of having to bail out of an aircraft, but they never fly with a parachute - that would be wasted training.
 
Henning said:
No, lol, your seaplane rating will be the most fun flying you ever do.:D The Beech 18 on floats for MES my old boss payed for that, but if I had to crack out $5k for 3 days, yeah, it would still be worth it. SES was a hoot and a half and I combined the ride with SE Commercial L&S in a Lake Bucaneer, so it was a good deal as well as a lot of fun since I got both for the same price on the same ride.
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Oh I know, I regularly fly floats and have my SES & MES. Did the ATP checkrides in amphibs, so I also benefitted from the 2 for 1 pricing.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
I would say the same thing I said about the TW endorsement. If you are wanting to get all your ratings to fly for a living(which I am assuming he is) concentrate on those first. If you are just flying for fun, absolutely go ahead and do it.
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Most of the tailwheel students I've had were up and coming professional pilots that sought out a tailwheel endorsement while they were in the 150-250 hour range. It was a great opportunity to learn a new style of flying while in between instrument rating and commercial training.
 
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