Hey guys, Just getting back into flying after a 10 year break. I see now that there is so much out there for androids and Ipad. I was wondering if it is worth having an Ipad or Android tablet with 3G or is WiFi only, sufficient for regular use?
Ipad 3G or not
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ScottM
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iBazinga!
With the iPad if you want to use the geolocation feature on things like maps and plates you need the 3G or else you will have to also add an external GPS. But you do not need a 3G subscription to get that GPS information.
TripleZ
Pre-takeoff checklist
If you want to pick up weather and other info when you land (and sometimes in the air), you will want 3G. Not all places have wifi.
You CAN tether to your smartphone (for about the same cost as a 3G data plan for the iPad), and there are some advantages. Like getting around the 20mb iTunes download limit.
However you HAVE to tether to your phone when not near Wifi to get data.....plus tether to your external GPS to get a signal...... So now you need 3 devices with charged batteries, all talking, to get the same results as a 3G iPad.
You CAN tether to your smartphone (for about the same cost as a 3G data plan for the iPad), and there are some advantages. Like getting around the 20mb iTunes download limit.
However you HAVE to tether to your phone when not near Wifi to get data.....plus tether to your external GPS to get a signal...... So now you need 3 devices with charged batteries, all talking, to get the same results as a 3G iPad.
Mike5250
Line Up and Wait
I would get a 3g model. You are not required to get a data package. Im on verizon 1gig plan at 20/mo. I have only gone over once and I use my ipad every day.
onwards
Pattern Altitude
I've been wondering the same myself... the built-in GPS is not as accurate as the external devices, and the only reason I am even considering an iPad at all is for Foreflight. That's all it will be used for, I have no need for the device otherwise (boy do I wish they had it for Android).
But then I'm adding another $300/yr to my $150/yr Foreflight subscription, which makes it more significant. In essence, I am now forced to shell out $450/yr for this app (in addition to the insane buy-in cost, $700 or so for the stupid device).
So for now I've stayed with my paper charts, even though I really do want to have Foreflight.
But then I'm adding another $300/yr to my $150/yr Foreflight subscription, which makes it more significant. In essence, I am now forced to shell out $450/yr for this app (in addition to the insane buy-in cost, $700 or so for the stupid device).
So for now I've stayed with my paper charts, even though I really do want to have Foreflight.
nddons
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You don't have to have an annual subscription for 3G - you can buy it as you need it. Apple does try to get you on an automatic renewal plan, but you can just opt out of it.
The 1 gig for $20 will only last a month, and you can't carry excess over, but for infrequent or seasonal use, that's the way to go.
Mike5250
Line Up and Wait
I have skycharts pro, includes app plates, airport diagrams, airport info, Hi-lo IFR charts, VRF charts, and Terminal area for $20. One time fee, free updates. You should check it out. http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/skychartspro/id364731059?mt=8
I have never lost signal with the built in gps on iPad 2.
Mike
midlifeflyer
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Very much a personal choice. I opted for WiFi only on my iPad with a plan to use an external GPS. That was this past spring. So far, I haven't missed the 3G capability even once.
n20junkie
Pre-takeoff checklist
Both of my Ipads had 3g. Its worth every penny. Pulling down flight plans and weather on the ramp, plus the internal gps on the ipad2 works up in the flight levels. I don't carry a laptop when I travel anymore.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Do you fly to very rural airports frequently that do not have wifi in the fbo? Unless the answer is yes - just get the wifi.
Most fbo's have free wifi. You can't count on the 3g above about 2000agl so its going to be generally worthless to you in the air. The GPS chip in the 3g device does not work so well in the airplane either. If its the same as my iphone 4 - it works most of the time but is not something I consider reliable. I've lost fix and took more than 10 minutes to re-acquire on more than one occasion. The external GPS chips have a bigger antenna and do not have this problem.
Most fbo's have free wifi. You can't count on the 3g above about 2000agl so its going to be generally worthless to you in the air. The GPS chip in the 3g device does not work so well in the airplane either. If its the same as my iphone 4 - it works most of the time but is not something I consider reliable. I've lost fix and took more than 10 minutes to re-acquire on more than one occasion. The external GPS chips have a bigger antenna and do not have this problem.
dennyleeb
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You have never found a airport where they did not have wireless and you needed the weather and to file a flight plan?
dell30rb
Final Approach
Most fbo's have it. Every time I walk into an fbo I see at least one pilot sitting on the couch puttering around on an ipad.
Like I said if your area has many small airports that don't have wireless it will be worth the 3g expense. As for me I seem to find that the vast majority in my area have wifi.
If you do run into an airport with no wireless, its inconvenient but you aren't up a creek. Call a briefer. For the 2-3 times a year you may have to call flight service its probably not worth the extra expense of the 3g chip and a subscription.
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ScottM
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iBazinga!
1-800-WX-BRIEF from my cellphone. A little known fact, people were able to function before the Internet and wireless data connections.
murphey
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So you're subscribing to the geo-referenced charts in addition to the base subscription? My A&T subscription (assuming I have it turned on all year, which I don't) is an additional $180/yr. And it's rarely "turned on", only when I'm traveling and know I won't be anywhere near wi-fi. Last time that happened was over the July4th holiday and I was staying with relatives who think high-tech is the tv remote.
Jim Logajan
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I think an iPad with external GPS makes good sense, primarily because an external GPS can be placed on the dashboard of a car or airplane and "see" more of the sky more clearly through non-metallic material.
An example of a non-aviation use:
My wife and I went on vacation to England in September and we took a wifi-only 32G iPad 2 along, external Dual Electronics Blue Tooth GPS, and Navigon MobileNavigator British Isles mapping software installed. It worked great in getting us around in a rented car. I've never driven from the right seat before in the left lane: decades of instinct made for a nervous drive initially (not to mention they never invented shoulders for a lot of their older roads; tall hedges abound that come right up to the edge of the roads.)
All in all, the Blue Tooth GPS worked well in the car with my wife handling the iPad. We've also used it in a C-172, and the rubber mat that Dual supplies does a very good job of keeping the GPS where you put it on the dash. By comparison, I'm not as confident of the Zaon MRX PCAS staying where I put it, so tend to use a strip of painter's tape to insure that item stays relatively put, even in practice stalls.
One other external device: I already have a stand-alone Verizon 3G "MiFi" unit. The MiFi is basically a small battery-powered Wifi access point <--> 3G network gateway. Makes it easy to get network access on the road for both my iPad and our laptops.
An example of a non-aviation use:
My wife and I went on vacation to England in September and we took a wifi-only 32G iPad 2 along, external Dual Electronics Blue Tooth GPS, and Navigon MobileNavigator British Isles mapping software installed. It worked great in getting us around in a rented car. I've never driven from the right seat before in the left lane: decades of instinct made for a nervous drive initially (not to mention they never invented shoulders for a lot of their older roads; tall hedges abound that come right up to the edge of the roads.)
All in all, the Blue Tooth GPS worked well in the car with my wife handling the iPad. We've also used it in a C-172, and the rubber mat that Dual supplies does a very good job of keeping the GPS where you put it on the dash. By comparison, I'm not as confident of the Zaon MRX PCAS staying where I put it, so tend to use a strip of painter's tape to insure that item stays relatively put, even in practice stalls.
One other external device: I already have a stand-alone Verizon 3G "MiFi" unit. The MiFi is basically a small battery-powered Wifi access point <--> 3G network gateway. Makes it easy to get network access on the road for both my iPad and our laptops.
onwards
Pattern Altitude
Well, I'm not subscribing to anything yet, that's the point
So what do geo-referenced charts do? is this the only difference between the versions?
EDIT: OK, went and looked on the FF site. Seems like this is the feature that my 182 transition instructor showed me recently that got me really awed - where you can actually see yourself in reference to the chart as you're moving. Or am I understanding this wrong?
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midlifeflyer
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Of course I have. I'm in Colorado. Plenty or rural airports with limited facilities.
But if I have to get weather and file a flight plan and the FBO doesn't have wireless, or a computer (rare), I have my Droid. If that doesn't work, neither will 3G in the iPad and I might actually have to use a (gasp!) telephone and call.
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midlifeflyer
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You're understanding it right.Well, I'm not subscribing to anything yet, that's the point
So what do geo-referenced charts do? is this the only difference between the versions?
EDIT: OK, went and looked on the FF site. Seems like this is the feature that my 182 transition instructor showed me recently that got me really awed - where you can actually see yourself in reference to the chart as you're moving. Or am I understanding this wrong?
All geo-referencing means is that, on a chart that is drawn to scale, your GPS position can be placed in the context of the chart, just like a car GPS puts you on the road you're traveling on
raider
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Ha! and before cell phones, there were telephones! with a big dial.
dennyleeb
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Jim Logajan
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The external GPS uses Blue Tooth for communication with the iPad, not wifi or 3G! It works independent of wifi or 3G.
Edit: This applies only to the Dual Electronics GPS unit. I believe Bad Elf is wired via the USB connector.
midlifeflyer
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That's right. Although I think the 30-pin dock connector isn't technically referred to as a usb connector; a lot of people wish the iPad had the ability to accept a usb connection.
midlifeflyer
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Sure. If you can find one these days
wabower
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The 3G can be a valuable tool for non-aviation use. ATT mistakenly disconnected my home/office phone and DSL a few weeks ago, and my only internet access was by using the ipad. For the relatively small price differential, I'd buy the 3g model.
I've found I don't need a separate GPS for ipad navigating in my high-wing Cessna. The built-in unit works fine.
I've found I don't need a separate GPS for ipad navigating in my high-wing Cessna. The built-in unit works fine.
I have the 3G model and know quite a few people that regret getting the wifi only one. Say you fly somewhere and want to use it as a gps in the car. The maps app has to pull the map data from somewhere. It uses the 3G connection for that. What if you want to look up a hotel phone number on the road. 3G again. Surf the net in the hotel and not pay $15 per night? 3G. It's not much more money and you can't ever add it later. Let's face it, if you have to worry over the additional cost of the 3G iPad, you probably should rethink the whole flying thing and take up a cheaper hobby.
onwards
Pattern Altitude
That last is really missing the point, as far as I'm concerned.
I don't "have to worry" about it, in terms of funds availability, but I never have and never will spend needlessly or without care. I am frugal, always have been, and always will be, and thus I pay attention to expenses - sometimes in ways you might not expect. Personal (that is, non-deductible) expenses I tend to be more anal about.
So, getting back to the topic at hand, spending $700 upfront and what amounts to $450 every year (FF+either ATT 3G, which I think is cheapest at $25/mo) for a single piece of software makes me take pause. Considering that much of my travel is local, so I don't need a chart to get there, the end result is that having Foreflight adds about $10 per hour to my flying costs. I'm not certain it's worth it. I don't have any other uses for the iPad at all. Add to that my intense dislike the entire Apple ecosystem, where I generally stay away from its products, and you see that I have a significant barrier to entry, psychologically.
And as I'm writing this, I'm paying attention to my internal reaction and realizing that's really my one major hangup. If FF was available on Android, I wouldn't care and just get it, with an accompanying device and 3G sub. It's that I have to buy something from Apple that is causing me grief. So yeah, ignore the rest, this is nothing anyone can help with reasoned (or unreasoned) arguments.
Any chance of FF ever appearing on Android?
Onwards,
If you only fly locally then why are you even considering electronic charts? Buy your one local chart per cycle and be done with it. I have an iPad with 3G and foreflight because I travel. It works better than anything else for that. Hands down. You may not like apple but it's so far out in front for this use it's not even funny.
If you only fly locally then why are you even considering electronic charts? Buy your one local chart per cycle and be done with it. I have an iPad with 3G and foreflight because I travel. It works better than anything else for that. Hands down. You may not like apple but it's so far out in front for this use it's not even funny.
onwards
Pattern Altitude
Well, because FF is that cool... and I do occasionally go out of my sectional
my problem is not with FF, it's with Apple, and I guess it's mine to work out with myself one way or another.
azure
Final Approach
Okay, this got my attention. I am not sure that I understand this. Does the "that" in the last sentence refer to the GPS info from an external GPS, or from the iPad 3G?
I've been "eyeing" (pun intended) the iPad ever since I started reading about ForeFlight. Even though I have a GNS 480 and a GMX-200 MFD with nav database subscriptions for both from Jeppesen, I do NOT have a terrain subscription for the MFD and have not updated the terrain DB since I bought the plane. Currently if I'm flying at an altitude where I need to worry about obstacles, I revert to the finger-on-the-chart method. So it would be very nice to have geo-referenced, updated electronic charts at a reasonable price, but since I'm already paying about $700/yr for the Jepp subscriptions, I really don't want to pay 50% more for that capability, it just wouldn't be worth it to me. I already have XM weather on the MFD and don't really need the iPad for internet access for flight planning purposes, though it would be nice.
However, if I can have geo-referencing for the entry cost of an iPad 3G plus the still very low FF subscription price, I'd consider it a good value.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
You can use the internal GPS of a 3G equipped iPad for the geolocated charts. The geolocation feature works with the internal GPS and without a 3G subscription just fine. That is exactly what I have and do not have a problem with it at all. No need for an external GPS when you have a 3G equipped iPad.
wabower
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midlifeflyer
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I don't have you anti-Apple issue (or rather I do but FF is so good I bought the iPad for it).
But I share a bit of your frugality about unnecessary extra expense. As I said, I've had my iPad since March and have flown quite a few long cross countries since then. Just really haven't missed not having 3G for my iPad. That may be because I have a Droid with some apps so I can get weather, etc when WiFi is not available and, in a pinch I can set my up my Droid as a WiFi hotspot and run my iPad off my Droid's 3G.
I see no reason at this point to duplicate.
midlifeflyer
Touchdown! Greaser!
Let's simplify.
A 3G iPad has an internal GPS as part of its hardware. It also has WiFi. You do not have to have to run the 3G or have a subscription for it in order to use the 3G iPad's internal GPS.
A WiFi-only iPad does not have an internal GPS. It's a hardware difference - just the way Apple chose to bundle it. So if you have a WiFi-only iPad, you must but and use an external GPS to have GPS functionality.
Both the internal or external GPS will work with apps like Foreflight. Some people have reported that the internal GPS doesn't work consistently. Others have had no problem at all with the internal GPS.
My own decision was that I wanted a GPS that I could put up on the glareshield, figuring that it was going to be more reliable in the long run. Having made that decision, I had to decide whether to spend extra on a 3G iPad to have backup for both GPS and internet connectivity or to save the extra hardware* cost. I decided to go WiFi only, but that was based on factors that were important to me and YMMV.
We're really just talking about a high-wing-low-wing or north-up-track-up kind of issue here, although just like those, there will always be those who insist that theirs is the only right way.
(* the 3G subscription cost was not an issue. First, as already mentioned, you don't need the subscription to use the internal GPS. Second, even if you want to have a potential backup, both AT&T and Verizon allow you to go month-to-month on 3G. So if you end up somewhere you need it, you can get it and then drop it)
Does that help?
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azure
Final Approach
Scott and Mark, thanks for the helpful clarifications. That iPad 3G definitely looks attractive right now. It kinda depends on how expensive my latest mx headache turns out to be. 
SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
Since the Op included Android, I can say that you can save a lot of money in both apps and hardware by going with awifi Android tablet. It will do geolocation without needing an external gps ad even the wifi only models have a built in GPS.
Android apps are also generally much less expensive. Food for thought. Naviator,while not as full featured as ForeFlight, is a really nice app. I use it as my primary navigation device for flying on my ASUS see Pad Transformer. Cost me $399, Naviator costs $49 a year. Compare to a 3g iPad and ForeFlight, and the price is substantially less.
Android apps are also generally much less expensive. Food for thought. Naviator,while not as full featured as ForeFlight, is a really nice app. I use it as my primary navigation device for flying on my ASUS see Pad Transformer. Cost me $399, Naviator costs $49 a year. Compare to a 3g iPad and ForeFlight, and the price is substantially less.
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SkyHog
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Everything Offends Me
Next best thing. Check out Naviator. It lacks georeferenced plates, but does a great job of eliminating paper in the cockpit.
Doggtyred
En-Route
There is a camera adapter that does just that very thing. Its up to the app developers to incorporate it.