Interesting Oil Temperature Issue...

[timwinters]

Interesting theory. Congealing or non-congealing cooler?

FYI http://www.oilcoolers.com/article_oil_coolers_101_2.asp

Have no I.D. but here's the photo...it's an 8 bolt:

I wonder if it would help to pull this plug and fill the cooler with oil??????

What is the orientation of the ports on the oil cooler? Ideally you want to introduce oil at the bottom and remove it at the top. Is it possible that the hoses were reversed at some point?

See above photo...no hoses...

 

[timwinters]

What type of oil temp and pressure intpstruments are you using?

you indicated that pressure dropped with higher temp. It may be that temp rises with lower pressure. You may be chasing the symptom, not the problem.

Per post #5

I have both an EI Engine monitor and the stock gauges. They are completely independent of each other. Both reflect high temps and correspondingly lower pressures.

When the oil temp is 185 the pressures are 50ish.

When the temp is 200, the pressure is 42ish.

Always in the green, either case.

 

[timwinters]

What oil do you use?

Aeroshell W100 in the summer with Camguard. (what's in it now)
Either Aeroshell W80 or Phillips 20/50XC in the winter with Camguard.

Always service with 10qts oil + the pt of Camguard. Sump is 12 qts.

Have you switched recently?

Went from Phillips to Aeroshell at the last change...winter to summer weight.

Have you attempted to run any solvent additives like MMO in the oil?

Nope.

 

[timwinters]

Oil is good up to 245F. Don't worry about it.

The point being...I know it's not right...regardless of how durable oil is at higher temps. The temps when everything is operating properly are 180 to 185 on a 90 to 95dF day (at the surface). Temps at altitude are typically ambient temp + 100dF (ish).

 

[Stewartb]

I agree that I'd want to identify why it's wandering. You have a brain teaser, for sure. I want to hear about what you find as you resolve it. Happy trails.

 

[timwinters]

I agree that I'd want to identify why it's wandering. You have a brain teaser, for sure. I want to hear about what you find as you resolve it. Happy trails.

Boy, no doubt!

One add'l point...the old vernatherm seemed as though it had been properly seating when we removed it. There was a clean "shiny copper" (or whatever mat'l it is) ring around the plunger where it had been contacting the seat.

So, I really don't think it was the vernatherm...of course, that is likely confirmed since the new one didn't make a difference.

The vernatherm gets longer when hot and closes off the bypass channel so that the oil has to flow to the cooler.

I still don't understand how they extend when they get warm. Both of the vernatherms (sitting side by side when we were changing them out) seemed to be fully extended...with the spring pushing the plunger into contact with the small nut on the end of the rod...and both were cool at the time. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that one. What extends?

 

[Norman]

It IS the congealing type cooler.

No, you shouldn't have to ever remove that plug.

How much time since overhaul, since it's likely never been off the case since. Possibly some sludge in there that needs flushing.

 

[timwinters]

1217 SMOH but the oil cooler was replaced at 604 SMOH in 2009. So it has 6 years and 600 hours on it. Definitely worth checking though...new gasket ordered...

(thanks Norm for all your advice and patience)

 

[docmirror]

I wonder if it would help to pull this plug and fill the cooler with oil??????

See above photo...no hoses...

That looks a lot like a burp port. Open it, fill with oil, start the engine, shut it off then quickly open that port and see if there's oil or air. With the mags COLD, run the starter a bit, and push any air out. Hopefully it'll drool. Make sure engine is fully warm so oil is going into the cooler.

 

[timwinters]

Thanks, I'll try that, surely it can't hurt...

BTW...the rest of the engine, I like keeping my stuff clean!

Not too bad for 1200+ SMOH...

...

...

 

[Vaflier]

Please post a pic of the oil filter assembly and surrounding area.

 

[timwinters]

Please post a pic of the oil filter assembly and surrounding area.

I don't have one but if you're familiar with the stock oil pump and filter screen on an O-470, then just remove the screen and add this with the filter at about the 4:30 position:

(yeah, I know, this one is actually for an O-300 but it's the best photo I found of a "pistol grip" adapter.

 

[N801BH]

Thanks, I'll try that, surely it can't hurt...

BTW...the rest of the engine, I like keeping my stuff clean!

Not too bad for 1200+ SMOH...

...

...

Hey Tim..

I "think" I see a little bit of dust on the 7th fin up from the case on the #5 cylinder.......

 

[timwinters]

Hey Tim..

I "think" I see a little bit of dust on the 7th fin up from the case on the #5 cylinder.......

Chipped paint...been since touched up!

 

[kyleb]

Chipped paint...been since touched up!

You probably haven't noticed, but all of the seal strips on your baffling don't match. That would drive some people crazy, but with your obvious lack of attention to detail, I bet it doesn't bother you at all. ;-)

 

[Vaflier]

I am familiar with that style oil filter adaptor, but I was wondering if your oil temp probe is located in the end of it.

 

[baboss]

Posted this at the other place but thought it might be helpful for other folks.

Continental has some engine manuals for free on their website now.
http://www.continentalmotors.aero/Maintenance_Manuals/

You might need to create a free account there to access them.
Try this link once you're logged in there.
http://www.continentalmotors.aero/xPublications/Maintenance%20Manuals/X30586ELEC_2013-10-15/
Publication X30586
Pg 72-00-12 describes the lubrication system and the next page has a diagram with arrows!

If that link doesn't work let me know.

 

[timwinters]

Thanks, Brock, I have an account there and have downloaded other manuals but didn't grab that one, I will.

 

[Tom-D]

Call Steve Knopp, at PeePonk Aviation. he will tell you in a minute what the problem is.

 

[timwinters]

Interesting, I might try that.

 

[denverpilot]

Call Steve Knopp, at PeePonk Aviation. he will tell you in a minute what the problem is.

Side note: it's Pponk Aviation. It's his last name spelled backward.

 

[timwinters]

I am familiar with that style oil filter adaptor, but I was wondering if your oil temp probe is located in the end of it.

I don't recall exactly where the stock temp probe is installed but...

The EI UBG-16 temp probe is installed at the auxiliary drain plug location. That's the one I use for primary referencere. The stock gauges are secondary...but agree as best as one can tell...the stock temp gauge has no temps listed. It's just a green arc.

 

[N801BH]

I don't recall exactly where the stock temp probe is installed but...

The EI UBG-16 temp probe is installed at the auxiliary drain plug location. That's the one I use for primary referencere. The stock gauges are secondary...but agree as best as one can tell...the stock temp gauge has no temps listed. It's just a green arc.

Interesting.... seems all Lycoming oil temp probes are located in the return line coming back from the cooler so the temp it displays will be 30-60 f degrees colder then the actual temp in the sump... In my career I always mounted the probe in the bottom of the oil pan since I want to know the REAL temp the motor is producing. Call me old fashioned....

Ps...Personally I hate cold oil, if it ain't 200f +, I am not happy... You guys are running air cooled stuff but on liquid cooled motors , they make best horsepower at 210f water and 230f oil temp.

 

[timwinters]

you indicated that pressure dropped with higher temp. It may be that temp rises with lower pressure. You may be chasing the symptom, not the problem.

I'm starting to think that this might indeed be the most plausible. My pressures, even in the winter, don't seem to be what they were when the engine was fresh. Not a huge difference but somewhat lower. the pump may be getting a bit sloppy.

I mean, what other variables are there except the vernatherm and the pump? And the vernatherm showed clear signs of proper seating when we replaced it.

The only other wildcard that I can think of, and that someone brought up either here or at CPA, is a cracked pick up tube but that sounds like a rarity (but I certainly don't know).

I topped off the sump, I'll "burp" the cooler this morning and go flying. If that doesn't improve things then it sounds like the pump is the next thing to look at.

 

[tmyers]

If I had cowl flaps...I'd do that!

There's the problem. Someone stole your cowl flaps!!!!!!!!

You didn't expect something serious did you.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

 

[Dan Thomas]

I still don't understand how they extend when they get warm. Both of the vernatherms (sitting side by side when we were changing them out) seemed to be fully extended...with the spring pushing the plunger into contact with the small nut on the end of the rod...and both were cool at the time. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that one. What extends?

There is a capsule inside that has wax and copper dust mixed together. It expands and pushes a plunger out.

See that inner spring that's usually inside the aluminum body/nut? The expanding part is inside it. It pushes the upper end out about a quarter inch and the cone contacts the bypass hole in the accessory case and closes it. The plunger will continue to push, so that outer spring (the one you can see when it's assembled) takes the force and collapses a bit, and the nut on the shaft extends as the plunger continues to move.

You can test one by measuring its length cold, then dropping it into boiling water. It should get longer.

Dan

 

[timwinters]

Thank you! That explains it completely.

I did numerous variations of Google searches trying to find that info...to no avail.

Thanks again.

 

[tmyers]

very similar to a DanFoss valve on a radiator Tim,

 

[timwinters]

You can test one by measuring its length cold, then dropping it into boiling water. It should get longer.

I dropped the one we took out of the airplane into boiling water tonight. It lengthened by a bit over 1/4" (From 1-7/8" to 2-3/16") so I assume it was good.

On to other theories.

 

[N801BH]

I dropped the one we took out of the airplane into boiling water tonight. It lengthened by a bit over 1/4" (From 1-7/8" to 2-3/16") so I assume it was good.

On to other theories.

How much did the new Veratherm cost???

 

[timwinters]

I got a serviceable used one for $100, new is over $400. Continental vernatherms are over twice what Lycoming's are because only Conti makes them. A few folks make them for Lycoming.

 

[N801BH]

I got a serviceable used one for $100, new is over $400. Continental vernatherms are over twice what Lycoming's are because only Conti makes them. A few folks make them for Lycoming.

For aviation. that is a cheap experiment...

 

[weirdjim]

I dropped the one we took out of the airplane into boiling water tonight. It lengthened by a bit over 1/4" (From 1-7/8" to 2-3/16") so I assume it was good.

On to other theories.

If all the oil in the engine can't squirt through a 1/4" gap in a few seconds you are using 200 weight gear oil.

Jim

 

[SkyDog58]

These lists are from ECi but I'd go through each item, one by one.

High Oil Temperature​

12 points

1. Insufficient oil supply
2. Defective oil temperature gauge
3. Airflow through oil cooler blocked
4. Oil cooler bypass valve malfunction
5. Cylinder baffles missing or insecure
6. Poor airflow around oil tank
7. Clogged oil lines or screens
8. Overheated bearings
9. Dirty or improper grade of oil
10. Improper grade of fuel
11. Improper ignition timing​

12. Main bearing shifting in crankcase bearing bore.

Low Oil Pressure​

18 points​

1. Insufficient oil supply
2. Oil pump not primed
3. Improper setting of pressure relief valve
4. Foreign matter in relief valve
5. Defective pressure gauge, or clogged gauge line
6. Improper grade of oil
7. High oil temperature
8. Leak in suction lines
9. Dirt in oil screens
10. Foaming in oil tank
11. Oil congealed in intake line
12. Excessively diluted oil
13. Broken oil line
14. Excessive cam follower to crankcase clearance
15. Excessive bearing clearance or wrong undersize bearings
16. Crankshaft plugs leaking or missing
17. Worn oil pump gears​

18. Broken oil pump gears or drive shaft

 

[timwinters]

Good information, thanks.

 

[Tom-D]

These lists are from ECi but I'd go through each item, one by one.


12. Main bearing shifting in crankcase bearing bore.


18. Broken oil pump gears or drive shaft

These two, That engine would be making metal faster than a bessemer furness

 

[timwinters]

Thanks for that clarification, Tom.

 

[weirdjim]

These two, That engine would be making metal faster than a bessemer furness

Wasn't he the husband of Betty Furness???




Jim

 

[timwinters]

These two, That engine would be making metal faster than a bessemer furness

Received the oil analysis from Blackstone on Monday from the last oil change (6/4/15):

TIM: The viscosity of this sample was in the correct range for Phillips 20W/50, so we're finally able to give this engine a perfect report here. Not that a slightly-out-of-line viscosity reading has been a problem for this engine in the past -- it just meant that we usually had something that needed to be highlighted, and now we don't! Metals are better than we've seen in the past, even on similarly short oil runs, so all in all, this is one of the best reports we've seen for this engine, at least in the past couple of years. Keep up the good work, and just check back to monitor. Nice!

 

[timwinters]

These lists are from ECi but I'd go through each item, one by one.

High Oil Temperature​

12 points

5. Cylinder baffles missing or insecure

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That's funny right there now! ​