Interesting ice encounter today

ScottM

ScottM

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iBazinga!
I was flying today and was just inside the bases of the clouds. The forecast was for broken clouds at 3000'AGL and PIREPs showed tops at about 6000'MSL. The first 30 minutes of the flight were in clear skies and the last 45 minutes looked to be just in the bases. I figured if any ice started I would just duck down out of the clouds. It was nice to be able to grab some IMC after a winter of not being able to fly too much.

I had been going in and out of small clouds for about 20 minutes when all of a sudden there was a little uplift and the front window instantly went into a frost covered state. WOW! I looked over to the left wing and could see a little rime ice forming on the fuel cap. I asked ATC for and got a descent to 4000MSL which put me just below the cloud bases and out of the icing. I was really amazed at how fast the ice started.

BTW the pitot heat was already on.
 
Sometimes, allegedly, I may inadvertently, accidentally, only to avoid a UFO have to duct into clouds. It is amazing how fast the ice forms, and disappears as soon as you clear the clouds, or so I have heard. :rolleyes:

I was scudding under 1500' layer near KC a few months ago. OAT was 43F and I picked up ice. ATC had a hard time believing me, but they took the PIREP.
 
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Scott I recall Bruce responding to one of my posts years ago and he said how quickly ice can accumulate and go from trace to Oh S*&% in what seems like no time flat.
 
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AdamZ said:
Scott I recall Bruce responding to on of my posts years ago and he said how quickly ice can accumulate and go from trace to Oh S*&% in what seems like no time flat.
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I sorta remember that post from him as well. This was my third encounter with ice. All three have just been trace ice and I quickly got out of the icing conditions. I admit to being an ice-puss and will go out of my way to stay away from ice. I always have an out planned and ready to execute when there is even the remotest chance of ice.
 
ScottM said:
I sorta remember that post form him as well. This was my third encounter with ice. All three have just been trace ice and I quickly got out of the icing conditions. I admit to being an ice-puss and will go out of my way to stay away from ice. I always have an out planned and ready to execute when there is even the remotest chance of ice.
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Caution is good certainly, but when you are "dancing" with the clouds it's kinda fun to play with it.

Allegedly. :lol:
 
Sounds very much like an encounter with SLD.... in your case, the freezing drizzle type of SLD. It is one of the worst type of situations you can find yourself in, because if the SLD was larger the extent of the icing could become much worse.

I don't want to sound like Mr. Doom and Gloom :no:. SLD is hard to predict, and encounters can have widely varying effects (based on same area, different times).

Just remember: The thicker the cloud, the more moisture. The more moisture, the more rapid the icing, the larger the drops the more extensive the icing.

Was it unusual? Not really! What were the temps at your altitude? If you were just above to well below freezing, the airframe could have been at the perfect temperature range for collecting ice.

I saw a massive inversion last week (for my neck of the woods): surface was 43*F, 45 at 2,000', at 3000* the temp was 22* F, at 3600' the temp was 49*F. Kinda a double whammy with a surface inversion and inversion aloft. Inversions can help trap moisture at lower levels.... often forming a type of stratus cloud or two layers of stratus with some nice space between the two layers (where the inversion aloft is).

BTW, did you happen to notice if any ice formed on your side windows or any further back than the fuel caps?
 
bob_albertson said:
Sounds very much like an encounter with SLD.... in your case, the freezing drizzle type of SLD. It is one of the worst type of situations you can find yourself in, because if the SLD was larger the extent of the icing could become much worse.

I don't want to sound like Mr. Doom and Gloom :no:. SLD is hard to predict, and encounters can have widely varying effects (based on same area, different times).

Just remember: The thicker the cloud, the more moisture. The more moisture, the more rapid the icing, the larger the drops the more extensive the icing.

Was it unusual? Not really! What were the temps at your altitude? If you were just above to well below freezing, the airframe could have been at the perfect temperature range for collecting ice.

I saw a massive inversion last week (for my neck of the woods): surface was 43*F, 45 at 2,000', at 3000* the temp was 22* F, at 3600' the temp was 49*F. Kinda a double whammy with a surface inversion and inversion aloft. Inversions can help trap moisture at lower levels.... often forming a type of stratus cloud or two layers of stratus with some nice space between the two layers (where the inversion aloft is).

BTW, did you happen to notice if any ice formed on your side windows or any further back than the fuel caps?
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The temp was -8C and no ice on the side windows or further back than the quick covering on the fuel cap.
 
I've found that ice normally accumulates on the windshield first, and it will accumulate very quickly there. Your gas caps would be the next logical point since they've got the sharp edges where you twist them on and off.

Basically, every time I've gone through a cloud this winter, I've gotten some form of ice.
 
I iced up Saturday while at 1600 under a ~2000 ceiling (Michigan, out over frozen Lake Huron)... Mostly windscreen and a bit on the leading edge of the wings, but I had to crab on final to get a good view of the TDZ... Kinda fun being there was no real threat...

I went out yesterday on my 71st birthday, for a flight... With the exception of the years right after my dad died and I didn't have an airplane, I have managed to rent/beg/borrow/steal/buy to go fly on the majority of my birth days... This was a cavu day and it was gorgeous - a rare treat in the first week of March in Michigan...

denny-o
 
Geico266 said:
I was scudding under 1500' layer near KC a few months ago. OAT was 43F and I picked up ice. ATC had a hard time believing me, but they took the PIREP.
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No offense, but scud running in the hotrods you fly sounds dangerous as all get out.
 
I actually encountered a wee bit o' ice on descent for BTR (Baton Rouge) on Tuesday; I had been cruising at 9,000, got a descend to 3,000 all at once, and with the OAT at -1, I figured there was a decent chance of something accumulating on the way down (ceiling reported 4k, so no stress). As expected, some on the windshield and some on the leading edges, all gone within a minute or so of emergng from the clouds.

Pitot heat was on.
 
Trapper John said:
There's not much for obstructions around Kansas City except for towers...


Trapper John
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The towers they got these days are huge. I've had to get out of their way when doing a bit of scud running myself, though it isn't so bad when moving at automobile speeds.
 
steingar said:
The towers they got these days are huge. I've had to get out of their way when doing a bit of scud running myself, though it isn't so bad when moving at automobile speeds.
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We have multiple 2,000 foot TV towers here. They're impressive to see up close from the ground, especially how many guy wires there are, and how far out the guy wires extend from the towers...


Trapper John
 
steingar said:
No offense, but scud running in the hotrods you fly sounds dangerous as all get out.
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That's why they have a throttle control that goes below '100%'. It means it it possible to slow down *if* you want to......

.... but why would you want to!? ;)
 
Trapper John said:
We have multiple 2,000 foot TV towers here. They're impressive to see up close from the ground, especially how many guy wires there are, and how far out the guy wires extend from the towers...


Trapper John
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Tony has a picture somewhere of those towers in the clouds. I think he was between layers and the towers were coming through the bottom layer and back through the top layer. Pretty cool.
 
On our trip to NYC last year, I was scooting along a few hundred feet above the tops of a development. Eventually, I flew through an 'outlier' cloud that had built faster than the others - in it for about 30 secs. Windscreen went blurry and I turned around and saw the tail covered with a nice layer of ice. Looked ahead and saw another, more extensive buildup and *notified* ATC that I was descending due to ice. I had climbed through the layer and knew temps were much warmer below, and I was already at 11k, so I didn't want to go higher.

Lower put us in solid IMC for a couple of hours, but at least we were still airborn.
 
CJones said:
That's why they have a throttle control that goes below '100%'. It means it it possible to slow down *if* you want to......

.... but why would you want to!? ;)
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I though the stall speeds on those things were faster than on their certificated brethren. If not they're miraculous, keeping a low stall speed with thin stubby wings.
 
steingar said:
I though the stall speeds on those things were faster than on their certificated brethren. If not they're miraculous, keeping a low stall speed with thin stubby wings.
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His RV-10 stall speed is about 57 mph.
His RV-12 stall speed is about 47 mph.

A RV-7 stall speed would be 51 mph.

Compare that to the 172RG that I fly:
Stall speed 57 mph
Cruise speed 155 mph

I don't have a lot of time in RV aircraft, but the time I do have, I was always very impressed with the versatility. You can go fast, you can go slow. Either way the airplane does just fine.
 
Pitot heat goes on before departure, turn it off after landing.

It won't burn up the elements. AFAIK it's SOP for the big iron. Greg can correct me on that.
 
steingar said:
I though the stall speeds on those things were faster than on their certificated brethren. If not they're miraculous, keeping a low stall speed with thin stubby wings.
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jesse said:
His RV-10 stall speed is about 57 mph.
His RV-12 stall speed is about 47 mph.

A RV-7 stall speed would be 51 mph.

Compare that to the 172RG that I fly:
Stall speed 57 mph
Cruise speed 155 mph

I don't have a lot of time in RV aircraft, but the time I do have, I was always very impressed with the versatility. You can go fast, you can go slow. Either way the airplane does just fine.
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RV's are very docile at low speeds for having such short/stubby wings. Jesse is pretty darn close on the stall speeds - it varies a knot or two between individual builds, but our -7A is ~54kts loaded and ~51kts empty.

One thing about the short stubby wings is that, when they stall, it pretty much stalls completely. At the same time, though, they recover very easily and completely. Ask Tony about our cross-coordinated turning stall last year. ;) Also, most RVs don't have a stall-warning device ike the buzzers you're used to in production planes, so if you're not used to it, it can sneak up on you.
 
CJones said:
Also, most RVs don't have a stall-warning device ike the buzzers you're used to in production planes, so if you're not used to it, it can sneak up on you.
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The Aztec has a stall warning light (no horn), which does take a bit of getting used to. Personally, though, I like it better as it's less disconcerting to passengers than a loud horn.
 
CJones said:
RV's are very docile at low speeds for having such short/stubby wings. Jesse is pretty darn close on the stall speeds - it varies a knot or two between individual builds, but our -7A is ~54kts loaded and ~51kts empty.

One thing about the short stubby wings is that, when they stall, it pretty much stalls completely. At the same time, though, they recover very easily and completely. Ask Tony about our cross-coordinated turning stall last year. ;) Also, most RVs don't have a stall-warning device ike the buzzers you're used to in production planes, so if you're not used to it, it can sneak up on you.
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i think i still have bruises on my head.
 
ScottM said:
Does the Aztruck have a gear warning horn?
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Yes it does - both a light on the gear lever and a horn that goes off pretty much with the engines at idle.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The Aztec has a stall warning light (no horn), which does take a bit of getting used to. Personally, though, I like it better as it's less disconcerting to passengers than a loud horn.
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ScottM said:
Does the Aztruck have a gear warning horn?
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Must be a Piper thing. The Arrow is the same way. Light for stall, annoying buzzer for "Hey, stupid! Put the gear down before you embarrass yourself!"
 
Ghery said:
Must be a Piper thing. The Arrow is the same way. Light for stall, annoying buzzer for "Hey, stupid! Put the gear down before you embarrass yourself!"
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My Piper is just the opposite. I have a stall warning horn but no gear horn. But then I do have a fixed gear Piper ;)
 
ScottM said:
I was flying today and was just inside the bases of the clouds. The forecast was for broken clouds at 3000'AGL and PIREPs showed tops at about 6000'MSL. The first 30 minutes of the flight were in clear skies and the last 45 minutes looked to be just in the bases. I figured if any ice started I would just duck down out of the clouds. It was nice to be able to grab some IMC after a winter of not being able to fly too much.

I had been going in and out of small clouds for about 20 minutes when all of a sudden there was a little uplift and the front window instantly went into a frost covered state. WOW! I looked over to the left wing and could see a little rime ice forming on the fuel cap. I asked ATC for and got a descent to 4000MSL which put me just below the cloud bases and out of the icing. I was really amazed at how fast the ice started.

BTW the pitot heat was already on.
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Just to follow up on this the flight home was fun. There was rain band, low viz and really no way to avoid it. But the temps were +5C with no ice being foretasted at 3k, the freezing level was at about 6k. I headed home and kept an eye on things. As I went further north the temps dropped to just above freezing, but the precip decreased as well. I did not get to shoot an approach on the flight home as it was clear enough to do a visual approach. I could have used the approach to help stay current. I guess I will have to fly some practice ones this month.
 
steingar said:
I though the stall speeds on those things were faster than on their certificated brethren. If not they're miraculous, keeping a low stall speed with thin stubby wings.
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"Thin" isn't a word I would use to describe RV wings. Look at an Aerostar - That's a thin wing! But the RV wings seem very Cherokee-ish to me... Maybe not quite as fat, but still fairly fat.

I think the way RV's get their speed is mostly with their really light power loading. For example, Chris' RV-7A has the same engine and a better prop than an Arrow, but only weighs half as much. (Whee! :D) When you're not using your ponies to keep the plane in the sky, you can use them to go fast.

Sure, there's more to it than that, but the wings really aren't what I'd call "thin."
 
ScottM said:
My Piper is just the opposite. I have a stall warning horn but no gear horn. But then I do have a fixed gear Piper ;)
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How do you know there's no horn. If the gear is always down it would never sound if there was one.:D
 
flyingcheesehead said:
"Thin" isn't a word I would use to describe RV wings. Look at an Aerostar - That's a thin wing! But the RV wings seem very Cherokee-ish to me... Maybe not quite as fat, but still fairly fat.
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The Aerostar does have a pretty thin wing. Look at a Lancair 320/360 and that's even thinner, same on the IV-P. None of those fall under the category of things I'd want to take through icing. That said, a 360 with a hot prop and those electric hot wings would probably be halfway decent, especially since they climb well enough that you could theoretically change altitudes pretty quickly.
 
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