Insurance Requirements for a Purchasing a Complex?

J

Jetter2

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Jetter2
Hey gang!

I currently rent our clubs Archer and its fine. I do plan on buying a Cardinal RG in the next year or so.

I am doing my IFR training this summer.

Being that I am a new buyer, I am curious as to what to expect as far as training is required. Will the insurance company typically require me to obtain 10hrs of training in my new Cardinal, or is complex training something I should look at ahead of time?

I guess I am asking if it is worth it for me to go back to my flight school to get my complex endorsement in a 200hp Arrow, prior to buying my Cardinal - or is it a non issue as insurance will require 10hrs or whatever initial training after I purchase the plane?
 
Before IR, I'd expect up to 25-30 hours. Insurance is bananas lately.

After, you might get no dual or "checkout with a CFI". It makes no sense.

I don't specifically know the Cardinal market. This is what I see all the time in the Bonanza market.
 
schmookeeg said:
Before IR, I'd expect up to 25-30 hours. Insurance is bananas lately.
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Are you saying I need to go build up 25-30hrs of complex time prior to buying a complex? I am doing the IFR training this summer, so by purchase time I will have my IR ticket already..
 
Jetter2 said:
Are you saying I need to go build up 25-30hrs of complex time prior to buying a complex? I am doing the IFR training this summer, so by purchase time I will have my IR ticket already..
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Sorry, no, I'm saying once you buy and insure the thing, they'll want something upwards of that prior to solo or passenger-carry
 
I bought my Lance with zero retract time, and about 300 total time. I did have my IR. IIRC 3 companies quoted me, one wanted 15hrs dual, plus another 10 solo before carrying passengers, another was 25 hours dual. I wound up using avemco who only wanted 10hrs dual. The biggest issue was that everyone except avemco had frankly ridiculous requirements for the cfi... like 100hrs time in type. Avemco said "any cfi".

I don't think it's worth just getting a complex endorsement as you can easily do that in your checkout time... it gives you something to do. If you thought you could build up 100+ hours in the Arrow, that would make a difference, but I'm guessing that would be prohibitively expensive.
 
A friend needed 30 full stop landings on top of 25 hours with cfi when he bought a retractable. Combo of age (mid 60s) and retractable? I don’t know. He did try two brokers so who knows how many companies looked at it. Maybe that was the problem. Ymmv
 
Jim K said:
I bought my Lance with zero retract time, and about 300 total time. I did have my IR. IIRC 3 companies quoted me, one wanted 15hrs dual, plus another 10 solo before carrying passengers, another was 25 hours dual. I wound up using avemco who only wanted 10hrs dual. The biggest issue was that everyone except avemco had frankly ridiculous requirements for the cfi... like 100hrs time in type. Avemco said "any cfi".

I don't think it's worth just getting a complex endorsement as you can easily do that in your checkout time... it gives you something to do. If you thought you could build up 100+ hours in the Arrow, that would make a difference, but I'm guessing that would be prohibitively expensive.
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Thanks - This is kind of what I figured. I'll just wait till after the purchase and do all my Complex/type time then.
 
Jim K said:
The biggest issue was that everyone except avemco had frankly ridiculous requirements for the cfi...
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Way back when, one of my students I had trained in 7AC champs, did his 1st solo in the Champ, and then finished his Private Rating in a Tomahawk. He bought a BC12D TaylorCraft. The insurance wanted him to have 5 hours with a CFI that also had at least 5 hours of T-Craft time. We couldn't find any CFI's with T-Craft time so we convinced the Insurance company that my 400 hrs of of Champ, Cub, and Citabria time along with about 500hrs of glider time would be acceptable. So we went and picked up his T-Craft and did his 5 hour checkout. After which he asked if I would like to be put on the insurance to fly the plane occasionally, for which I agreed I would. We checked with the insurance, they wanted me to do a checkout with a CFI (No T-craft time required) even though I had just done 5 hours of instruction in the plane checking out the owner.

Brian
CFIIIG/ASEL
 
When I bought my Comanche the requirement for me was 10 dual. I used the time for my complex and HP endorsements. Also did a fresh Flight review and IPC. It was not really a burden and time well spent IMHO.
 
brcase said:
Way back when, one of my students I had trained in 7AC champs, did his 1st solo in the Champ, and then finished his Private Rating in a Tomahawk. He bought a BC12D TaylorCraft. The insurance wanted him to have 5 hours with a CFI that also had at least 5 hours of T-Craft time. We couldn't find any CFI's with T-Craft time so we convinced the Insurance company that my 400 hrs of of Champ, Cub, and Citabria time along with about 500hrs of glider time would be acceptable. So we went and picked up his T-Craft and did his 5 hour checkout. After which he asked if I would like to be put on the insurance to fly the plane occasionally, for which I agreed I would. We checked with the insurance, they wanted me to do a checkout with a CFI (No T-craft time required) even though I had just done 5 hours of instruction in the plane checking out the owner.

Brian
CFIIIG/ASEL
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:rolleyes: :rofl:

LOL why am I not surprised?
 
I can’t imagine when you wouldn’t benefit from having everything you need before hand. But you never mentioned pricing as a concern so I’m guessing either you can afford it or we’ll see a follow up thread about “omg I can’t believe how expensive insurance is”.


Ask it this way: “Hi insurance company….what are the details for you to insure me in a plane I don’t have the necessary endorsements for nor any experience in?” Answer should be more req’s and more money without, less of each with.
 
Insurance companies will typically require X hours of dual in type and Y hours of solo in type before carrying passengers. X and Y depend on many factors, but you can't really hurt yourself by having some hours in one or both categories unless you get those hours in the wrong type. Since the factors driving X and Y include total time, complex time, and having an instrument rating, you also can't hurt yourself by working on those things.
 
My insurance required me to have 25 hrs dual (in this model) before solo along with 50 hrs total (in this model) before carrying passengers. This was for my multi RG (also complex & HP) aircraft and prior to me having any multi or RG time. Insurance also required the instructor I was going to use to have 25 hrs in this model aircraft. Insurance was clearly made aware I was using this aircraft for training to obtain my Multi rating and the insurance also explicitly put this allowance into the policy. Which is NOT to say the insurance company waived the hr requirements as I stated.

My options for insurance were extremely limited. Most insurance companies were not even offering a quote at any price and simply said no.
 
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brcase said:
Way back when, one of my students I had trained in 7AC champs, did his 1st solo in the Champ, and then finished his Private Rating in a Tomahawk. He bought a BC12D TaylorCraft. The insurance wanted him to have 5 hours with a CFI that also had at least 5 hours of T-Craft time. We couldn't find any CFI's with T-Craft time so we convinced the Insurance company that my 400 hrs of of Champ, Cub, and Citabria time along with about 500hrs of glider time would be acceptable. So we went and picked up his T-Craft and did his 5 hour checkout. After which he asked if I would like to be put on the insurance to fly the plane occasionally, for which I agreed I would. We checked with the insurance, they wanted me to do a checkout with a CFI (No T-craft time required) even though I had just done 5 hours of instruction in the plane checking out the owner.

Brian
CFIIIG/ASEL
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It actually makes sense…The flow chart says a Private Pilot needs 5 hours with a CFI who has 5 hours of T-craft time. Even though that was negotiated out, when he asked to put you on the policy, they went straight back to the flow chart that says a Commercial Pilot with Instructor certificate needs a simple checkout.
 
One of my former students, who trained in a Cessna, purchased a V-tail Bonanza right after he passed his Private checkride. His insurance company wanted him to fly 25 hours of dual with a CFI experienced in Bonanzas. Fortunately, I owned a V-tail Bonanza for 17 years and was happy to help him meet that requirement.
 
As some of these planes get older it could be difficult to satisfy insurance and find a cfi with time in type in some models. A 177rg may be one of them, I have no idea. But insurance companies can sometimes be weird on time in type requirements.

Find out what insurance wants, then make sure you can find an instructor that meets what they want.
 
For single piston complex non HP I would guess insurance would want 10-25 hours dual plus 25 takeoffs and landings in type prior to first solo.
 
I am Comm ASEL, IA (and a BUNCH of other ratings). I had some 1700 hours, over 700 retract when I bought my Mooney last summer, but 0 hours time in time.

I needed 5 hours dual to fly the airplane solo. And 5 hours solo before passengers.

I expect my rate will go down after a year and getting over 100 time in type.
 
Racerx said:
As some of these planes get older it could be difficult to satisfy insurance and find a cfi with time in type in some models. A 177rg may be one of them, I have no idea. But insurance companies can sometimes be weird on time in type requirements.

Find out what insurance wants, then make sure you can find an instructor that meets what they want.
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I have about 30 hours in a C-177RG.

When I bought my Bonanza, I had not flown a retractable for more than 20 years. My insurance company didn't require me to have any dual instruction. But I did have almost 1,500 hours in retractable military airplanes.
 
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The insurance underwriters will likely see a complex plane as something the owner will fly longer and farther on trips. Not having an IR is a liability and the rates and checkout will reflect that. You will might need as many hours dual as the IR too
 
I had lots of Cherokee time when I bought the Mooney, no IR. Insurance asked 10 hours. First year was a bit pricey.
 
So what were all the rates per year for everyone? 2k? More?
 
When I moved from my 182 to a p210 they wanted 15hrs dual with a cfi that met the Open pilot. Like someone said earlier - that’s the hard part - finding a cfi that meets the Open Pilot clause. For me there aren’t a lot of p210 cfis in the mid Atlantic area. Ended up flying someone in from San Diego.
 
John Spartan said:
So what were all the rates per year for everyone? 2k? More?
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Largely depends on the value. Year one for my Lance was about 4800. Year two was 4000. Year three I switched companies, and increased my hull value by ~80k, and the premium is 3800. Plane is valued now at 225. When I was researching prior to purchase, a cherokee six was exactly half as much to insure as a Lance of equal value.
 
Rates mean nothing without the hull value. You have to look at percentage of hull value for liability and hull. Someone could say my insurance was 5k and someone else was 7.5k all with the same flight time and ratings. But one plane was worth 250k and the other worth 375 being newer with an upgraded panel or something.
 
Insurance costs for me.
Single non-complex. Hull coverage, physical damage both "not in motion" and "in motion", zero deductible, premium is 0.9% of hull value.
Multi, complex, hp. Hull coverage, physical damage both "not in motion w/$250 deductible" and "in motion w/$2500 deductible", premium is 2.4% of hull value.

Liability premiums are on top of that.

I usually get a nice selection of insurance quotes back for the Single. For the Multi, I am happy to have anybody offer anything at any price. I have never had insurance quotes for the Multi at crazy prices - but lots of insurance companies just say No.
 
As mentioned above, hull value and time in type are huge factors.
IFR helps
As mentioned above, find a plane online, use that N number and call a quality Insurance Broker.
Get quoted
Your conversation with a Insurance BROKER will be the facts

You have to weed out the references that are more than 2 years old, it's a crazy different program now with insurance.
For example, in 1997 as a 50 hour new pilot, I was checked out in my clubs 182RG with no time requirements.
In 2022 I bought a 182RG, and even with 150+ hours in type, still had to get a 5 hour checkout (Starr Insurance).
 
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