Instrument Training

[AggieMike88]

I'm getting ready to start down the road of instrument training.

Current discussion with CFII is twice a week with possibly a third lesson if the weather provides the opportunity for some actual.

Assuming we move along at a steady and productive pace, how soon would we wrap up the training and be getting ready for the checkride?

 

[poadeleted20]

How much instrument time do you have already? Have you taken and passed the written? What kind of plane with what avionics, and how knowledgeable are you on the avionics? Do you have a sim of some sort, and if so, how accurately does it emulate the actual aircraft and its avionics?

 

[EppyGA]

Mike,

I flew 2 to 3 tiimes per week. I started on 8/26/11 and took my check ride on 3/21/12 and did not fly between 12/15/11 and 1/15/12 due to Christmas and other personal obligations. As I got towards the end I spent a few hours polishing up with a safety pilot to make sure I had it all down.

 

[Z06_Mir]

I started the second week of October. I took the ride feb 2nd. So 4 months. I had a couple week long breaks, two mechanical and one holiday that put me back a bit. I logged 45 hours during that time period.

 

[AggieMike88]

How much instrument time do you have already?

Just the 3 required for PPL

Have you taken and passed the written?

Not yet

What kind of plane with what avionics, and how knowledgeable are you on the avionics?

1975 C182P (club owned), CNX80, KX155 nav/com, Chelton AP. Gaining proficiency with every flight. I can get HDG and ALT hold to work on the AP okay. But still figuring out the other functions, including intercepts and coupling with the NAV source.

Do you have a sim of some sort, and if so, how accurately does it emulate the actual aircraft and its avionics?

Redbird @ www.atrcsim.com. I will have to inquire if he has the "switch outs" to simulate the panel I have.

 

[poadeleted20]

Just the 3 required for PPL

So, you need 37 more, of which 10-20 can be in the sim depending on what type of sim.

Not yet

Get cracking.

1975 C182P (club owned), CNX80, KX155 nav/com, Chelton AP. Gaining proficiency with every flight. I can get HDG and ALT hold to work on the AP okay. But still figuring out the other functions, including intercepts and coupling with the NAV source.

That CNX80 is going to be an issue, since there are no training packages for it. You're going to need a day or so on the ground with the CNX80 PC simulator and an instructor who knows it to really learn it well enough for IFR operations. This is not something you can teach yourself effectively out of the reference manual.

Redbird @ www.atrcsim.com. I will have to inquire if he has the "switch outs" to simulate the panel I have.

Good news and bad news. It appears the FMX is approved for 20 hours towards the rating. However, Redbird does not offer a CNX80 package for the FMX. My experience with PIC suggests that for someone with no prior instrument time other than the 3 hours from the private, and a sim which doesn't do the GPS in the plane, you're looking at around 17 hours in the sim and 23 hours in the plane.

One thing I would suggest is to try to make the flights longer than you did in PP training. If you schedule 1-1.5 hours, you get only 45-60 minutes of actual instrument training. By scheduling longer flights (2.5 hours or so), you spend a greater percentage of the clock time from start-up to shutdown on instrument training, and less on start, taxi, takeoff, landing, taxi, and shutdown.

So, if you do this with a schedule three/fly two plan, you're probably looking at 8-10 weeks to completion. Big thing is to make sure that if you have a day where you can't fly for weather, the sim is available instead so you can still make progress.

 

[Ted]

I was on a similar schedule and it took me 4 months, including getting the written done. I didn't use a sim of any sort, all of it was in the plane. Make sure to go up on days when you've got low ceilings and weather if you can.

Good luck!

 

[pilot117]

How much time do you have in the plane and how much experience do you have planning and flying long cross countries and interpreting weather over long distances? I'm just finishing up my IFR now. Those 3 things helped me significantly I think. I expected to need much more than FAA minimum training but after 20 hours or so my CFII said flying wise I was more ready for the check ride than any student he'd sent for a ride. I don't think that's because I'm the greatest pilot. I think mostly it was due to flying my plane over 300 hours the past few years and being very comfortable with the plane. If power & configuration changes & trimming are all second nature you're able to focus more of your mental faculties on the new stuff and it will come easier. One more thing that contributes is how familiar and comfortable your are with radio work and talking to controllers.

The oral and knowlege stuff is a different story. There's a ton of material to comprehend and committ to memory.

I guess all I'm saying is there are lots of factors that contribute to how quickly you'll accomplish the rating. It goes pretty quick if you're good with flying the plane and talking to ATC and you just have to learn some different approaches and holding patterns. I can see it taking as much time as Ron said if you're learning the plane and figuring out ATC as well as the instrument specific stuff.

 

[BillTIZ]

I did not see the CNX80 listed in the aircraft on the clubs web page. It did list a Garmin 480.

Are Loran's still operational? I thought they were long dead. Northstar M1?

 

[dell30rb]

I did not see the CNX80 listed in the aircraft on the clubs web page. It did list a Garmin 480.

Are Loran's still operational? I thought they were long dead. Northstar M1?

CNx 80 equals garmin 480

It's a LPV capable gps. Not as popular as 430...

 

[BillTIZ]

CNx 80 equals garmin 480

It's a LPV capable gps. Not as popular as 430...

Thanks!

Now why is that LORAN still in the panel?

 

[MAKG1]

Thanks!

Now why is that LORAN still in the panel?

The usual reason is as a weight.

It means the owner doesn't have to redo the W&B, or pay an aviation mechanic to remove it and secure all the wiring.

 

[AggieMike88]

Turns out a buddy in the flight club I joined was also primed to start IFR training. We found a good and well respected local instructor with a 50+ year career of flying who is willing to take us on as a tag team.

Tonight was lesson one in a Redbird FMX at the Sim center working on the basics of the scan, keeping tight altitude and heading tolerances, and flying an ILS approach.

It was a good lesson. 1.1 hr down and a bunch more to go!

 

[BrianNC]

I took an accelerated course and was done in two weeks. After taking so long to get my private I wouldn't have done it any other way. And I actually took it with another pilot. One would train, the other rode in the back seat and observed. He even rode in the back seat on my check ride.

 

[jason]

I flew a similar schedule. My checkride was three months and one day after my first lesson.

 

[poadeleted20]

Turns out a buddy in the flight club I joined was also primed to start IFR training. We found a good and well respected local instructor with a 50+ year career of flying who is willing to take us on as a tag team.

If the two of you fly together with that instructor, trading seats flying/observing, and then go practice together between lessons, you can make your training much more efficient.

Tonight was lesson one in a Redbird FMX at the Sim center working on the basics of the scan, keeping tight altitude and heading tolerances, and flying an ILS approach.

Not sure why anyone would introduce ILS approaches on Lesson 1, but everyone has a different syllabus.

 

[AggieMike88]

If the two of you fly together with that instructor, trading seats flying/observing, and then go practice together between lessons, you can make your training much more efficient.

That's the plan

Not sure why anyone would introduce ILS approaches on Lesson 1, but everyone has a different syllabus.

This was more for the practical side of holding altitude, ascents/descents, and turns to a heading using references only.

 

[poadeleted20]

This was more for the practical side of holding altitude, ascents/descents, and turns to a heading using references only.

Ah -- yes, I do much the same on Lesson 1, effectively doing an instructor-generated ASR and having them pull the hood off with the runway in front of them. No needles, however, at that stage.

 

[wabower]

Any drill that emphasizes the need for controlling tiny turns (both starting them and stopping them) is valuable for IR training. IMO it's an oft-overlooked fundamental that can lead to hours of frustration if not learned early-on.

Ah -- yes, I do much the same on Lesson 1, effectively doing an instructor-generated ASR and having them pull the hood off with the runway in front of them. No needles, however, at that stage.

 

[bobmrg]

Just the 3 required for PPL


Not yet


1975 C182P (club owned), CNX80, KX155 nav/com, Chelton AP. Gaining proficiency with every flight. I can get HDG and ALT hold to work on the AP okay. But still figuring out the other functions, including intercepts and coupling with the NAV source.



Redbird @ www.atrcsim.com. I will have to inquire if he has the "switch outs" to simulate the panel I have.

FAR 61.109(a)(3): "Three hours of flight training ....control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments..."

No instrument training per se required for the private certificate. (Sorry, Cap'n Ron.)

Bob Gardner

 

[AggieMike88]

Any drill that emphasizes the need for controlling tiny turns (both starting them and stopping them) is valuable for IR training. IMO it's an oft-overlooked fundamental that can lead to hours of frustration if not learned early-on.

Agree. It didn't take much to drift off of the heading and overcontrolling just started a wallowing action to reacquire. Lee (the CFI-I) did coach us on using "finger tip" inputs to maintain the desired results.

 

[rbridges]

Mike,

I flew 2 to 3 tiimes per week. I started on 8/26/11 and took my check ride on 3/21/12 and did not fly between 12/15/11 and 1/15/12 due to Christmas and other personal obligations. As I got towards the end I spent a few hours polishing up with a safety pilot to make sure I had it all down.

I didn't realize you were that recent with your instrument. My time frame was similar. Took about 6 months going twice a week. I took the written early to get it out of the way. December was a no-go for check rides, and I finished in January.

 

[gismo]

Any drill that emphasizes the need for controlling tiny turns (both starting them and stopping them) is valuable for IR training. IMO it's an oft-overlooked fundamental that can lead to hours of frustration if not learned early-on.

Very true but if the pilot can't even hold heading and altitude (I'm thinking of me early in my IR training) chasing needles doesn't seem like a very productive method for learning how to make small corrections.

 

[AggieMike88]

Today, I'm working my way through my written test lessons, including all the "refer to Figure XX in the supplement".

If this is the same info and sequence as the real test supplement, geez, what a hot mess of organization. Definitely a gubbment thang.

 

[MultiMediaWill]

FAR 61.109(a)(3): "Three hours of flight training ....control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments..."

No instrument training per se required for the private certificate. (Sorry, Cap'n Ron.)

Bob Gardner

What do you mean?

 

[wabower]

Needles have nothing to do with this drill. It's all about headings.

Very true but if the pilot can't even hold heading and altitude (I'm thinking of me early in my IR training) chasing needles doesn't seem like a very productive method for learning how to make small corrections.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I'm getting ready to start down the road of instrument training.

Current discussion with CFII is twice a week with possibly a third lesson if the weather provides the opportunity for some actual.

Assuming we move along at a steady and productive pace, how soon would we wrap up the training and be getting ready for the checkride?

4 to 6 months to the IFR Rating, depending on Wx and how quick you learn....

I found learning the actual in-flight instrument flying part helped me with the written test questions, as opposed to the Private written, where it didn't matter.

 

[Z06_Mir]

My instrument took slightly less than four months. If you average it out I probably flew 3 times a week, maybe four. I had a lot of 5 lesson weeks and a few no lesson weeks in there. No Sim time at all. Thinking about getting an hour in one to stay proficient.

 

[poadeleted20]

What do you mean?

He means that the regulations are written so that the 3 hours of instrument flight experience required for Private Pilot are not "instrument flight training." If they were, then that portion of the PP curriculum could only be taught by a CFI with both Airplane Single Engine and Instrument Airplane ratings on his/her Flight Instructor certificate, since "instrument flight training" may only be given by an instructor who also holds that Instrument Airplane instructor rating. That would mean a plain vanilla CFI-ASE could not take a trainee from zero to Private. In order to make it possible for instructors without the Instrument Airplane instructor rating to do that, the FAA wrote the paragraph Bob referenced so that it is "Three hours of flight training [in] control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments" rather than "Three hours of instrument flight training."

 

[AggieMike88]

take a look at my home airport and the list of SID's

www.airnav.com/airport/KDTO

What is the simple way to determine which one covers what direction of flight outbound without opening each in turn until I find the one I want?

 

[SCCutler]

take a look at my home airport and the list of SID's

www.airnav.com/airport/KDTO

What is the simple way to determine which one covers what direction of flight outbound without opening each in turn until I find the one I want?

Experience, I am afraid. That, and looking on FltPlan.com to see what other aircraft with the same destination have been assigned.

Edit:

Also, look at them and you'll see some have minimum altitudes which make them practical only for turbines.

 

[poadeleted20]

take a look at my home airport and the list of SID's

www.airnav.com/airport/KDTO

What is the simple way to determine which one covers what direction of flight outbound without opening each in turn until I find the one I want?

If you have Foreflight, you can put in the airport pair and hit Routes to see if the SIDs have been used in going that way, along with the altitudes to which folks were cleared on those routes. Beyond that, as Spike said, not really just by looking at the name.

 

[EdFred]

Three instrument lessons in October, then the flight school closed down. Didn't fly again until March when I found a new flight school. Re-started in mid March, took the check ride 1st Saturday in May. 40.2 hours with about 20 of that at night all with an instructor - no safety pilot. Which I think was money better spent, because I always had someone keeping me in check with instruction and distraction rather than just having a sack of protoplasm looking out for airplanes in the seat next to me.

If you can, get actual. If you can't, do your training at night it helps to keep you from cheating. I haven't found a view limiting device that you can't peek out the corner of the window.

 

[bnt83]

Three instrument lessons in October, then the flight school closed down. Didn't fly again until March when I found a new flight school. Re-started in mid March, took the check ride 1st Saturday in May. 40.2 hours with about 20 of that at night all with an instructor - no safety pilot. Which I think was money better spent, because I always had someone keeping me in check with instruction and distraction rather than just having a sack of protoplasm looking out for airplanes in the seat next to me.

If you can, get actual. If you can't, do your training at night it helps to keep you from cheating. I haven't found a view limiting device that you can't peek out the corner of the window.

I'm thinking of doing what you did, flying it all with an instructor when I get around to it.

 

[AggieMike88]

If you have Foreflight, you can put in the airport pair and hit Routes to see if the SIDs have been used in going that way, along with the altitudes to which folks were cleared on those routes. Beyond that, as Spike said, not really just by looking at the name.

I remembered Fltplan.com does much the same.

Checking out routing to College Station (KCLL) from Denton (KDTO), I noticed the plan ATC would dishout was JOE POOL 4 departure with the CLL transition.

Reading the text, this starts over the MAVERICK (TTT) VOR, which is well within the KDFW Central Airspace. http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1302/05866JOEPOOL_C.PDF

Now if I was go use this SID to go get an order of wonderful artery clogging cheese fries at the Dixie Chicken, would I expect my initial clearance to send me direct to TTT and I start out there? Or am I more likely to be vectored by Departure around the busy airport and then to the outbound radial once clear of the busy space?

 

[wabower]

Vectors to intercept somewhere north of Waco.

I remembered Fltplan.com does much the same.

Checking out routing to College Station (KCLL) from Denton (KDTO), I noticed the plan ATC would dishout was JOE POOL 4 departure with the CLL transition.

Reading the text, this starts over the MAVERICK (TTT) VOR, which is well within the KDFW Central Airspace. http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1302/05866JOEPOOL_C.PDF

Now if I was go use this SID to go get an order of wonderful artery clogging cheese fries at the Dixie Chicken, would I expect my initial clearance to send me direct to TTT and I start out there? Or am I more likely to be vectored by Departure around the busy airport and then to the outbound radial once clear of the busy space?

 

[AggieMike88]

Vectors to intercept somewhere north of Waco.

Makes sense... this is sorta what they did to us Sunday when we went down on flight following. Departure kept us on the east side of I35W at 3000, vectoring us to maintain separations, and then turned us loose to climb to cruise and our own navigation after we were 5-10 miles south of I20.

 

[Henning]

Very true but if the pilot can't even hold heading and altitude (I'm thinking of me early in my IR training) chasing needles doesn't seem like a very productive method for learning how to make small corrections.

It makes a good lesson in not chasing needles though....