Instructor night currency

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by swingwing, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. swingwing

    swingwing Pre-takeoff checklist

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    A requirement for the commercial rating is a two hour dual night xcountry. If the student is a private pilot with night currency and will be the PIC for the entire flight, does the instructor need to be night current to provide the instruction for this flight. I can’t locate a definitive answer in the regs.

    Any ideas?
     
  2. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    As strange as it may seem, an instructor and a student are not considered passengers to each other. So technically neither one has to be current. That was explained in the now defunct Q&A so I cannot give you a source for that opinion. But if the student is current, the instructor doesn’t have to be if he is not the acting PIC.
     
  3. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    CFI doesn’t have to be current even if the private pilot isn’t. Chief council opinion.
     
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  4. Brad Z

    Brad Z En-Route

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    Here's the source: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...6/Kortokrax - (2006) Legal Interpretation.pdf
     
  5. swingwing

    swingwing Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Wow! I would have never guessed that. Thank you!
     
  6. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It was a surprise to many when they said it, especially when they went a step further and specifically said it even applied when the student was merely an uncertificated student pilot.
     
  7. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Very interesting!

    When asked, an operations inspector from the DEN FSDO said if there was an incident or accident they determine who is PIC (thus subject to prosecution) by determining which pilot is qualified and current without respect to their role in the flight.

    Regardless of the FAA's perspective I have to ask if there was an incident or accident what would the insurance company do? After all insurance is frequently the driver for most things aeronautical.

    Be legal, smart, and safe!
     
  8. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I suspect not much in this case. Typical insurance contract denies coverage if the PIC was not legally exercising privileges - no current medical qualification, no current flight review. Denial due to lack of passenger-carrying currency poses and interesting question since, if alone, there would be no issue. But with no currency requirement for an instructional flight, hard to think of what an insurer would hang its hat on.

    Unless, of course, the insurance contract had its own currency provision written into it.

    Those definitely exist. Annual flight reviews and IPCs. Minimum dual requirements. Open pilot warranties. Never seen a 90 day takeoff and landing requirement.
     
  9. Brad Z

    Brad Z En-Route

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    Plain and simple, a student is not a passenger. If it's clear with the FAA, its clear with the insurance company (unless they have a specific prohibition in the policy regarding this).
     
  10. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Brad Z insurance companies tend to apply their own take on things. Check with any FBO or club and see if you can rent a constant speed, retract, or twin with just a Private (and for twin ME rating).
     
  11. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Yeah, but that is an insurance thing, not an FAA thing.
     
  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes. But just like the FBO rules on who may rent their airplanes, "their own take on things" is in the insurance contract, not something they make up later, which is what your post seemed to say.

    @Brad Z is absolutely correct in his statement:
    Now, if you want to talk about potential liability or a careless/reckless operation claim in case of an accident, that can be a very different story, but it would not be a legitimate basis for an insurance denial of coverage in the absence of policy language.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019 at 8:02 AM
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  13. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I’d wager that nearly every FBO or club would rent a complex airplane to a Private certificate holder. It’s not about the certificate level, but more the ‘time in type’ requirement held by the insurance company.
     
  14. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, was kinda hard to get your commercial without being able to rent a complex.
     
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  15. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well, you don't need a complex anymore, just a TAA. You don't need to be able to rent solo either. The commercial allows the cfi-dummy for what had been the solo flights.
     
  16. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    Was never a need for solo complex time.
     
  17. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Cleared for Takeoff

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    I've rented lots of Arrows and Cherokee 6s. Granted the 6 is a stiff-legged airplane, but the Arrow checks all the boxes for complexity.

    Is Jon Caples trying to say that what I did is highly unlikely in his world?

    I have seen lots of aircraft rental places all over the US with Arrows, 182s, and other complex aircraft for rent to us lowly PPL holders.
     
  18. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Ejection Handle Pulled

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    No Egbeard, what I am saying is the insurance requirements are more of a factor than your license. So to answer you directly I'm saying it is impossible not just unlikely. Every club or FBO from which I've rented you had to be covered by their insurance, period, full stop!

    As an example, the club I currently rent through has a C-182, Arrow and a S35 Bonanza. Whether your license is private, commercial, or ATP before you can rent either THE INSURANCE REQUIRES a minimum of 10 hours in constant speed retract airplanes and 5 hours in an Arrow or S35 Bonanza. So since I already have 20 hours in an Arrow I'm covered. When I decide to checkout in the Bonanza, I will need to get 5 hours in the S35 OR ask if the insurance company will accept my other several thousand hours in singles and twins that are constant speed retracts. My guess is the insurance company will accept my experience, but I am prepared to fly the 5 hours if they do not.

    This club also has specific minimum experience as dictated by the insurance company to rent their C-182. Their rule is simple, if any pilot, regardless of license and ratings, does not meet the requirements dictated by the insurance company you cannot even schedule the airplane unless you are accompanied by a properly signed off club instructor.

    I don't see how to explain it any more clearly.

    Be legal, safe, and smart...
     
  19. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    That’s not exactly what you said originally. You had made it sound like it was more certificate based (ie., an FBO may not rent to a Private certificate holder) rather than insurance or time in type.

    No one is arguing the fact that it’s insurance related. I think we can all agree with that.
     
  20. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    There wasn't, but they rented em to private students after you had 5-10 hours or so.
     
  21. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The bolded is 100% false. There are a whole bunch of FBO's that will rent complex aircraft to private pilots. They might require a checkout, but they will still rent to a private pilot. One place I rented from, as soon I was checked out in Arrow, I was good to fly every other aircraft they had on the line with no further checkouts, and yes, I was a private pilot at the time.

    Since your arrival on this board you have constantly demonstrated you have 1 of 2 issues. #1 cognitive issues coupled with narcissism, where you are not actually processing what people are asking or saying, and then go off on some long winded diatribe which is sort of related to the topic and hand, but is really just a platform to try and "impress" a bunch of people who don't give two ****s about how amazing you think you are. Or #2, you just have severe communication issues where you can't ever get your point across so someone besides you can understand what it actually is you are saying.

    Maybe write your post out, wait 30 minutes, then read it again to see if it makes sense before hitting submit.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019 at 3:47 PM
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  22. Brad Z

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    Ladies and Gentlemen, Ed Frederick, Chairman, POA Welcoming Committee...
     
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  23. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Well, so far we have "learned" from him that you can automatically log instrument in class A airspace, a new pilot (less than a month) needs to be concerned with MEA's and supplemental oxygen when crossing the Appy chain, and somehow FBOs won't rent complex to private pilots has something to do with CFI night currency along with a few other gems. So, where was I wrong in what I said?
     
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  24. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Or that circling minima are ALWAYS HIGHER than straight in.
    Or that the alternate minima are set based on how busy adjoining airports are.
     
  25. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Cleared for Takeoff

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    I wish there was a "LOVE" button. "Like" just seems like not enough for EdFred's post.

    Jon, I'm sure you're very used to being the smartest person in any room, and you truly believe we can all benefit somehow from your awesome presence. You fully believe if we're not wowed by having you here, it just means we aren't playing close enough attention.

    Jon, how about trying to just be "a guy" on here, instead of our newly-found PhD, knows-everything mentor.
     
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  26. Brad Z

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    I wasn't disagreeing with you... :)
     
  27. jonvcaples

    jonvcaples Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Have we beat this enough? If not feel free to keep going but no more from me.

    Sometimes the problem with communication is the allusion it was achieved. This goes for all of us.

    Be legal, smart, and safe...

    Wag more, bark less, never bite first...
     
  28. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think both the problem and solution are the same: respect for and reliance on one's opinions is earned over a very long term.
     
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  29. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    And then follows the consistent response showing no understanding of the issue combined with a creepy passive aggressive peace message.....

    Seems to prove EdFreds assertion.

    PS> You probably meant Illusion, but who the hell knows.
     
  30. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Would you guys knock it off? We get your opinions.
     
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  31. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Knock offs can be a real threat to the American consumer. While they may appear to be genuine, they can often be made with inferior components and result in harm to the user. [Insert 5326 random characters here.]

    Fly safe