INSTALLING DME

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N9406U

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I am trying to buy used DME to install in a Cessna 150. I am training for my instrument rating and found I need more equipment (GPS isn't an option due to budget).

I have 2 digital nav/comm's. #1 is a KX-155 with a VOR/GS channeled to it. The other radio is a MK 12D paired to a 2nd VOR.

Originally I was hoping to channel a Narco 890 to the King. But can I do that? Can I only channel a Narco to another Narco?

Will I need to buy a more expensive KN62 or KN64 to do this?

Thanks!
 
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find a used but working narco adf, stand alone, doesn't need anything else. I've got a used nrco dme, isn't connected to anything else, I don't think. works just fine.
 
I didn't think a DME needed to be tied into anything??? You just plug in the freq and it gives you distance on the display..Right?
 
True...I guess being a rookie with an upcoming checkride, I want to make things as simple as possible. Tune and identify station on the nav, and the DME automatically does the same.
 
Why?

The short term economics MIGHT be cheaper but you are installing something that is losing functionality every day and assuming the 20 y.o. Units works for any length of time.
 
False economy times a thousand. Times a million. You'll spend more hooking up the DME and getting it installed than its worth, and it won't increase the worth of your aircraft one iota. Now, put in an IFR GPS, which can be had quite inexpensively and costs about the same to install, and you've got something that really works for IFR and increases the value of your airplane.

Of course, the best solution is always to purchase the airplane with the avionics you want.
 
If you're just doing this for the checkride, it's probably cheaper to rent a 172 with the necessary equipment just for those one or two flights.
 
i guess my IR is invalid, it was done in a pa28 with two nav comms and no DME........

bob
 
Hi 9604U.

Since you said a GPS is beyond your budget, and many here are deriding your planned direction, about how much are you planning to spend? That may help with advice from the many members here.
 
unsafervguy said:
i guess my IR is invalid, it was done in a pa28 with two nav comms and no DME........

bob
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Yep, send it back in, Bob. You can't use it anymore :). I will have to send mine back in too.
 
Find you a used gx-60 and install. What 3k installed likely and you will have an ifr gps and it will now be your dme as well.
 
simtech said:
Find you a used gx-60 and install. What 3k installed likely and you will have an ifr gps and it will now be your dme as well.
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I wish that were the case. Bennet Avionics has a GX-60 listed for $3000. Last I talked to my avionics guy it would be another $3000 to install plus $2000 for a CDI installed. $8000 would go a long way towards a 430w.
 
Don't waste your money installing a DME. Do your checkride /U instead of /A.

Save that money towards installing an IFR GPS at some point instead.
 
lancie00 said:
I wish that were the case. Bennet Avionics has a GX-60 listed for $3000. Last I talked to my avionics guy it would be another $3000 to install plus $2000 for a CDI installed. $8000 would go a long way towards a 430w.
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Browse forums, barnstormers, and the like. They can be had with indicator for $1500 then you and your mechanic install it. And 3k to install seems really pricey....I was quoted 2k for installation on a 430 and indicator with local avionics shop.
 
Ok I got the answer. No, you can't channel a Narco DME to a King radio, the coding is different or something...

I can get a Narco for a fraction of what the cheapest GPS will cost. Sure, I can fly in IMC without DME or GPS, but it's not something I want to try single pilot on a checkride. Knowing how far I am from the station with a glance will make things a LOT easier.

Here's my next question: Can a non-TSO'd DME legally be used for navigation under IFR?
 
N9406U said:
Ok I got the answer. No, you can't channel a Narco DME to a King radio, the coding is different or something...

I can get a Narco for a fraction of what the cheapest GPS will cost. Sure, I can fly in IMC without DME or GPS, but it's not something I want to try single pilot on a checkride. Knowing how far I am from the station with a glance will make things a LOT easier.

Here's my next question: Can a non-TSO'd DME legally be used for navigation under IFR?
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Perfectly acceptable, legal and prudent to use a VFR GPS for situational awareness.
 
I agree, but do you think an examiner is going to be ok with that on a checkride?
 
N9406U said:
I agree, but do you think an examiner is going to be ok with that on a checkride?
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Mine was, "Fly it like you would fly it in real life" is what he said. You would have to ask around for the gouge on your guy.

I would question the decision making ability of a DPE that wouldn't let you use one. Be prepared to have it fail though ;)

Right now as you train, it may seem daunting to keep your bearings with just the VORs but as you gain proficiency its not very hard. I would suggest on based on my experience to do some actual cross country IFR. Real life you're not going to get rapid fire approaches intermixed in with VFR traffic, you will have plenty of time real life to dial in headings frequencies brief charts etc etc you may be surprised how quiet the frequencies can get during actual IMC flight.
 
N9406U said:
Ok I got the answer. No, you can't channel a Narco DME to a King radio, the coding is different or something...

I can get a Narco for a fraction of what the cheapest GPS will cost. Sure, I can fly in IMC without DME or GPS, but it's not something I want to try single pilot on a checkride. Knowing how far I am from the station with a glance will make things a LOT easier.

Here's my next question: Can a non-TSO'd DME legally be used for navigation under IFR?
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For Part 91 ops, only a few things need to meet TSO and DME ain't one of them.
I had a NARCO IDME 891 in my 150 hooked to a Mark 12D. There are some on eBay for $720 on up.
 
Great thanks! That's what I was hoping to hear :) Just for future reference, what are the things that need to be TSO'd for 91?
 
N9406U said:
Great thanks! That's what I was hoping to hear :) Just for future reference, what are the things that need to be TSO'd for 91?
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Off hand, the transponder and any IFR GPS, also the ELT if I recall.
 
The guy who told you they cost the same to install needs an education.

I just did this same upgrade and am configured similarly. I bought a King KN64 in good condition (with a spare display) for $550. I got a good deal (many others are about $900) but if you shop you can pick it up for about what I paid. My cost for the installation was $3500 but I had much more done in that price including a new external radio antenna, an emergency antenna (for portable radio hookup) and some upgraded (simplified) panel wiring to make future upgrades easier. So, I'd say the install cost for the DME is probably closer to $2K. I did not install the "remote channeling" feature.

I have priced out a used 430W to install and that cost, including 430W and indicator is at least $15,000. With ADS-B coming up I had to forgo that. The result of my DME upgrade is that on my trips from the northeast to Florida I now have double the instrument approaches available that I had when just filing /U (vs. /A) and that is great peace of mind. It's also pretty handy for VOR and ILS approaches. I guess I would add that if you do eventually add an IFR GPS then this investment of about $2550 is a throw away but plenty useful in the meantime.
 
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unsafervguy said:
i guess my IR is invalid, it was done in a pa28 with two nav comms and no DME........

bob
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Mine too, in a Cessna 120 with one 90 channel com, single VOR/LOC but no GS, no ADF, no DME, and had to do them all during the day because we didn't have a landing light. Thank merciful heavens it was just AFTER the days of the A-N ranges.

Jim
 
Beware the older GPS units. Some cannot be updated any more.... and if an older 430 (non-WAAS) unit breaks, the only repair option is to get the upgrade done.
 
weirdjim said:
Read the reg carefully. The transponder, altitude encoder, and ELT need to MEET the TSO, not BE TSO'd.

Jim
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I think that's a difference without a distinction. How does one prove something that is not TSOd meets the TSO unless one has all the equipment to verify compliance.
 
Witmo said:
I think that's a difference without a distinction. How does one prove something that is not TSOd meets the TSO unless one has all the equipment to verify compliance.
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If you've never been through the TSO application process, you wouldn't understand without a two-page explanation. If you HAVE been through the process then I don't understand your post.

Jim
 
flyzone said:
The guy who told you they cost the same to install needs an education.
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A Man knows quite a bit about putting old avionics in old airframes, thank you.

flyzone said:
I just did this same upgrade and am configured similarly. I bought a King KN64 in good condition (with a spare display) for $550. I got a good deal (many others are about $900) but if you shop you can pick it up for about what I paid. My cost for the installation was $3500 but I had much more done in that price including a new external radio antenna, an emergency antenna (for portable radio hookup) and some upgraded (simplified) panel wiring to make future upgrades easier. So, I'd say the install cost for the DME is probably closer to $2K. I did not install the "remote channeling" feature.
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Lets say you're right (which I strongly doubt) and you paid $2000 to install your DME. You can pick up and old but perfectly functional GPS for a thousand, easy. Lets say it costs you $2K to install, just for giggles. That's $2.5K to put in a DME, and $3K to put in an IFR GPS. Which do you think will be more useful? Which will boost the value of your airframe more? Lets say its $2.5K to put in the GPS. Now its a thousand more. Again, is an IFR GPS worth a thousand dollars?
 
steingar said:
A Man knows quite a bit about putting old avionics in old airframes, thank you.

Lets say you're right (which I strongly doubt) and you paid $2000 to install your DME. You can pick up and old but perfectly functional GPS for a thousand, easy. Lets say it costs you $2K to install, just for giggles. That's $2.5K to put in a DME, and $3K to put in an IFR GPS. Which do you think will be more useful? Which will boost the value of your airframe more? Lets say its $2.5K to put in the GPS. Now its a thousand more. Again, is an IFR GPS worth a thousand dollars?
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I have an actual installation experience with receipts and you are just throwing numbers around that fit your argument. $1000 for an IFR GPS? Keep it - it's nothing I would want and I doubt you'd find one anyway with maps you can update, etc. I priced a Garmin 300XL (90s era IFR, non precision and radio with maps availability) for $3500 - a good price that included an indicator, annunciator and even the harness (did you forget those?). You also need an antenna. You are not installing that for $1000 - more like $3,000 - minimum - unless you are doing it in your backyard which is not acceptable to most of us. That would be $6500 and frankly I really think it would be more. Garmin says they will fix it unless it has a display issue, in which case they won't. This is about as cheap as you go with at least some semblance of support that is needed for an IFR unit (this really doesn't apply to a low cost DME) so costs go up from here. Most folks are talking a 430W and that price goes way up (you still need the indicator, antenna) and it is also a radio adding more to the install cost.

I know a guy who says he can fix my car for $100 and I might think about it but I apply different criteria to airplanes.
 
I've got no dog in this fight, but i think @steingar was making a hyperbole. VOR and DME are going the way of the dinosaur.
 
flyzone said:
I have an actual installation experience with receipts and you are just throwing numbers around that fit your argument. $1000 for an IFR GPS? Keep it - it's nothing I would want and I doubt you'd find one anyway with maps you can update, etc. I priced a Garmin 300XL (90s era IFR, non precision and radio with maps availability) for $3500 - a good price that included an indicator, annunciator and even the harness (did you forget those?). You also need an antenna. You are not installing that for $1000 - more like $3,000 - minimum - unless you are doing it in your backyard which is not acceptable to most of us. That would be $6500 and frankly I really think it would be more. Garmin says they will fix it unless it has a display issue, in which case they won't. This is about as cheap as you go with at least some semblance of support that is needed for an IFR unit (this really doesn't apply to a low cost DME) so costs go up from here. Most folks are talking a 430W and that price goes way up (you still need the indicator, antenna) and it is also a radio adding more to the install cost.

I know a guy who says he can fix my car for $100 and I might think about it but I apply different criteria to airplanes.
Click to expand...

I've seen KLN 89B's with all the kit for a grand more times than I can count. Actually bought one for that once. I've got a KLN94 sitting int he hangar with all the kit (including the upstate cable and two, count's two, data cards) that I picked up for $2500. I've seen them working in all sorts of airplanes that fly IFR all the time. Lets say it costs $3K for installation, I'll buy that. You've got GPS capability for $4K. When you're done spending your $2.5K-$3k to install your worthless DME you've got nothing. The GPS will increase the value of your airframe, the DME not so much. DME is the way of the past. GPS is the way of the future.

sferguson524 said:
I've got no dog in this fight, but i think @steingar was making a hyperbole. VOR and DME are going the way of the dinosaur.
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I assure you I was not hyperbolic. To me, if you can' afford the $1.5-2K difference between a DME and a GPS, you probably shouldn't own an airplane. Any given annual can give a much more expensive surprise.
 
I've got about this in a GTN650 so far:

$400 tray
$400 connector kit
$400 configuration/identity module kit
$310 new WAAS antenna
$30 in proseal
~$60 TNC coax connectors for WAAS antenna
~$60 coax cable for WAAS antenna
$1400ish in a nice used GI106A
$40 or so in the GI106A connector kit
$50 or so in circuit breakers
$80 in a VOR/GS antenna splitter
$15 in BNC coax connectors
$10 ish in adhesive-lined semi-rigid heat shrink tubing
$15 wire
No, I don't have the 650 either. I expect that's gonna be around $8k for it in the end.

Yikes that adds up fast! (I need to stop doing that)
 
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steingar said:
I've seen KLN 89B's with all the kit for a grand more times than I can count. Actually bought one for that once. I've got a KLN94 sitting int he hangar with all the kit (including the upstate cable and two, count's two, data cards) that I picked up for $2500. I've seen them working in all sorts of airplanes that fly IFR all the time. Lets say it costs $3K for installation, I'll buy that. You've got GPS capability for $4K. When you're done spending your $2.5K-$3k to install your worthless DME you've got nothing. The GPS will increase the value of your airframe, the DME not so much. DME is the way of the past. GPS is the way of the future.


I assure you I was not hyperbolic. To me, if you can' afford the $1.5-2K difference between a DME and a GPS, you probably shouldn't own an airplane. Any given annual can give a much more expensive surprise.
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The difference is
steingar said:
I've seen KLN 89B's with all the kit for a grand more times than I can count. Actually bought one for that once. I've got a KLN94 sitting int he hangar with all the kit (including the upstate cable and two, count's two, data cards) that I picked up for $2500. I've seen them working in all sorts of airplanes that fly IFR all the time. Lets say it costs $3K for installation, I'll buy that. You've got GPS capability for $4K. When you're done spending your $2.5K-$3k to install your worthless DME you've got nothing. The GPS will increase the value of your airframe, the DME not so much. DME is the way of the past. GPS is the way of the future.


I assure you I was not hyperbolic. To me, if you can' afford the $1.5-2K difference between a DME and a GPS, you probably shouldn't own an airplane. Any given annual can give a much more expensive surprise.
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The difference is at least $4K (which would pay for your ADS-B install) but for a 430W more like $10K. The one thing I've discovered about avionics and other upgrades is they don't improve the value of your airframe much if at all.
 
flyzone said:
The one thing I've discovered about avionics and other upgrades is they don't improve the value of your airframe much if at all.
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Perhaps, but they can greatly increase salability, i.e. getting your asking price.
 
I maintained both IFR certified GPS units (430W) AND DME in my plane. The ADF went away shortly after I bought the plane (still have it if anyone is interested).

Understanding the fragility of the GPS system at times, my theory was that the DME afforded a relatively decent backup if GPS went down. That said, the plane came with DME - although I have a old KN64 on the shelf that I'll gladly part with now that I've sold the plane, I'd choose a GPS if I were doing it new today. (the KN64 was bought when I was going to put in a second 430W to replace the Nav/Com/DME box since the wiring and antenna were already installed. Cheaper to just put it in than to pull all that stuff out).
 
Hmmm...$15000 for a Garmin 650 installed divided by ten years equals $1500 +$300 for annual mapping subscription divided by the 4 approaches per year where it would actually be needed by me (only RNAV approaches available) equals $450 per approach.

Wow!
 
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Morgan3820 said:
Hmmm...$15000 for a Garmin 650 installed divided by ten years equals $1500 +$300 for annual mapping subscription divided by the 4 approaches per year where it would actually be needed by me (only RNAV approaches available) equals $450 per approach.

Wow!
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The Garmin 430 install manual shows that Revision A was released in 1998, that was 18 years ago.

I'm expecting to fly a GTN650 for at least 20 years, using the Com every flight. Dunno how effective or useful the traffic/weather/adsb page will be with a GTX345, which will also be used every flight.

A retired airline pilot friend really getting up in the years says his only regret owning his 177B was not putting some nice radios in when he bought it 10 years ago.
 
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