Increasing Checkride Fail Rate

Interesting article, my opinion is CFI 1st pass rates have increased significantly over the last 7 years.
 
Clip4 said:
Interesting article, my opinion is CFI 1st pass rates have increased significantly over the last 7 years.
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The 80% first time fail rate is a myth. Maybe 80% for certain FSDOs but it’s not 80% for the entire country.
 
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Clip4 said:
Interesting article, my opinion is CFI 1st pass rates have increased significantly over the last 7 years.
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Perhaps because more initial CFI checkrides are being performed by DPEs rather than inspectors these days?
 
I'm confused. Who said anything about an 80% failure rate?
 
mondtster said:
Perhaps because more initial CFI checkrides are being performed by DPEs rather than inspectors these days?
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The data supports this. 2012 shows ~1200 checkrides by inspectors and ~2600 by DPEs. 2017 shows ~860 by inspectors and ~4400 by DPEs.
 
Funny, I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the FAA wants DPE’s have to have something like no less than Λ 20% applicant fail rate overall.
 
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TK211X said:
Funny, I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the FAA wants DPE’s have to have something like no less than Λ 20% applicant fail rate overall.
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Coercing the results of a process is always detrimental to the quality of the process.
But then again, you mentioned it was the FAA so it would not be surprising. :D
 
Clip4 said:
Interesting article, my opinion is CFI 1st pass rates have increased significantly over the last 7 years.
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I can only hope as I plan to take my CFI ride this summer.
 
Walboy said:
I have heard from two DPEs recently who said it's a myth that the FAA prescribes a certain maximum pass rate. DPEs are periodically checked during checkrides by the FAA for quality control purposes. I suspect if the the pass rate is too high or low or there are a lot of complaints DPEs may receive extra attention/scrutiny but I'd be surprised if anyone is given a hard number.

That said, I hear a disproportionately large number of the international students training at the aviation academies fail. It would be interesting to see if there are statistics on pass rates of international versus domestic students. It's been my observation that there has been a huge increase in foreign student training over the last five to ten years...at least in my area. That is also causing long wait times for a checkride.
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Stanfield Traffic!!!!!

I am most nervous for my CFI...I have heard the Scottsdale FSDO is very tough to pass first time (maybe that is just bs though)
 
If an DPE or FAA FSDO Inspector want to fail someone they can start digging during the oral and when they find a weak spot continue to dig for minute detail until the applicant cracks. FAIL! If you happen to have a check-ride and the examiner was just served divorce papers, you are in for one helluva ride.
 
Is it the DPEs failing just to fail or is it subpar students getting subpar training from CFIs that should not be teaching. I know around me the quality of CFIs and pilots passing checkrides is pretty sad. Some of the applicants should not have passed.
 
Salty said:
I'm confused. Who said anything about an 80% failure rate?
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It has been claimed for many many years (and disproven by FAA data over and over again) that the first time CFI fail rate is that high. Probably an old wives tale created and perpetuated by those who did not pass first time around.
 
Walboy said:
My guess is you won't take your checkride with the FSDO. They're mostly done with DPEs now. That doesn't mean it will be any easier or harder.
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Varies from FSDO to FSDO, but most are so backed up that they are allowing certain DPEs to administer CFI initials.

Scottsdale was really bad about this. Last year, people were waiting months to get the FSDO to schedule their rides. Hopefully that has changed.
 
Walboy said:
My guess is you won't take your checkride with the FSDO. They're mostly done with DPEs now. That doesn't mean it will be any easier or harder.
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Well Mr. Walboy you better believe I’m passing first time!
 
I wonder if the reliance on a moving map or other technology is a factor. I know it makes navigation much easier, but I noticed that more recent pilots are dependant upon it. A friend failed his first recent checkride because he went off course. This friend also relies heavily on the autopilot. I now like the autopilot too, but in my first 500 hours I rarely used an autopilot. Having said all that, I recently equipped my airplane with GPSS and it is amazing how well they track a programmed course. You really had to work much harder to track your course and find a small airport in the mountains with no VOR reception back in the go old days. ;)
 
Baron62 said:
I wonder if the reliance on a moving map or other technology is a factor. I know it makes navigation much easier, but I noticed that more recent pilots are dependant upon it. A friend failed his first recent checkride because he went off course. This friend also relies heavily on the autopilot. I now like the autopilot too, but in my first 500 hours I rarely used an autopilot. Having said all that, I recently equipped my airplane with GPSS and it is amazing how well they track a programmed course. You really had to work much harder to track your course and find a small airport in the mountains with no VOR reception back in the go old days. ;)
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It is the students wanting to take the easy path. They normally don’t want to study. I give students a set of questions, when they return. I find that instead of opening the books, they google the answer. They want to jump right into Foreflight as means of navigating. I have one student wanted to know how to work the autopilot for his x country. Of course I laughed when he said it would make it easier. A lot of students are just lazy and only want to get the license without putting in the work.
 
TommyG said:
It is the students wanting to take the easy path. They normally don’t want to study. I give students a set of questions, when they return. I find that instead of opening the books, they google the answer. They want to jump right into Foreflight as means of navigating. I have one student wanted to know how to work the autopilot for his x country. Of course I laughed when he said it would make it easier. A lot of students are just lazy and only want to get the license without putting in the work.
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Down that path, as I am working on my CFI I am wondering how basic pilotage and navigation is even taught or tested these days. Paper charts are all but gone the way of the dinosaur. I have used or seen a current one in years. I learned the old school way, paper chart, navlog, magnetic variation, all that, and its nice to be able to say I could do it if I could. But if a new pilot has no intention of ever having a paper chart at their disposal, is there much purpose in teaching it? I know my more recent checkrides I did it both ways, and the DPE just told me, show me how you would do it for real, not just for the test.

I am still leery of being electronic dependent, and insist on having redundency, at a minimum the panel mounted unit, plus a ship powered handheld unit with battery backup. Usually I have a third in the form of a Ipad for even more redundency. I did have a failure on a recent trip though that made me think more about those options. I had a quick ferry cross country I was called upon to do. Mid way realized I didn't have my Ipad, but thats ok I have two other means of navigating plus the Mk1 eyeball. Then the handheld crapped out and it occured to me I was down to just the panel mounted GPS, and wasn't terribly familar with the area I was flying in otherwise. Through good fortune and clean living...ok plain luck and praying like hell... I survived, but it made me think.
 
That is funny, I have to imagine that there is far more than 20% of the current pilot population that I don't care to get in a plane with :)
 
TommyG said:
It is the students wanting to take the easy path. They normally don’t want to study. I give students a set of questions, when they return. I find that instead of opening the books, they google the answer.
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That's better luck than I've had. At least they Googled the answer. I've had people turn stuff in completely blank.

First problem is they don't study. Second problem is they don't remember what I teach them. I almost never have students take notes during groundschool. Entire lessons are completely forgotten like they never happened.
 
A1Topgun said:
If you happen to have a check-ride and the examiner was just served divorce papers, you are in for one helluva ride.
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If the examiner comes in and has a tube of Preparation H sticking out of his shirt pocket, you are in for one helluva ride......
 
dmspilot said:
That's better luck than I've had. At least they Googled the answer. I've had people turn stuff in completely blank.

First problem is they don't study. Second problem is they don't remember what I teach them. I almost never have students take notes during groundschool. Entire lessons are completely forgotten like they never happened.
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My ground school students consistently score 87% or better on the WRT. Set a standard for your ground school students they have to study and you will not endorse any student who does not score at least an 80% on your difficult ground school final and those who fail have to pass with 85% on the retest.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Down that path, as I am working on my CFI I am wondering how basic pilotage and navigation is even taught or tested these days. Paper charts are all but gone the way of the dinosaur. I have used or seen a current one in years. I learned the old school way, paper chart, navlog, magnetic variation, all that, and its nice to be able to say I could do it if I could. But if a new pilot has no intention of ever having a paper chart at their disposal, is there much purpose in teaching it? I know my more recent checkrides I did it both ways, and the DPE just told me, show me how you would do it for real, not just for the test.

I am still leery of being electronic dependent, and insist on having redundency, at a minimum the panel mounted unit, plus a ship powered handheld unit with battery backup. Usually I have a third in the form of a Ipad for even more redundency. I did have a failure on a recent trip though that made me think more about those options. I had a quick ferry cross country I was called upon to do. Mid way realized I didn't have my Ipad, but thats ok I have two other means of navigating plus the Mk1 eyeball. Then the handheld crapped out and it occured to me I was down to just the panel mounted GPS, and wasn't terribly familar with the area I was flying in otherwise. Through good fortune and clean living...ok plain luck and praying like hell... I survived, but it made me think.
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The tech is awesome, but it's a tool not a crutch, and if you use it, or rather NEED it, it will fail on you, just the twisted sense of humor the human condition has.

Still paper charts out there, no shortage, point is if you can't look out the window, compare to a map (as in a M A P map) IMO you can not navigate under VFR and have zero business holding a VFR ticket.

Frankly it's actually pretty fun and not that hard to use your eyeballs a window and a little folded piece of paper under your leg to get from A to B.
 
My instructor made sure my GPS "failed" frequently and I routinely use paper charts for navigation on XCs to keep in practice.

I figure that if I rely to much on the GPS it will probably fail when I really need it so I try to keep it in the 'nice to have but not essential' category.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I am still leery of being electronic dependent, and insist on having redundency, at a minimum the panel mounted unit, plus a ship powered handheld unit with battery backup.
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The fact that your backups to electronic devices are electronic means you ARE electronic dependent.
 
Kansas Flyer said:
My instructor made sure my GPS "failed" frequently and I routinely use paper charts for navigation on XCs to keep in practice.

I figure that if I rely to much on the GPS it will probably fail when I really need it so I try to keep it in the 'nice to have but not essential' category.
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On all my X/Cs (in training) and even on my checkride, I never turned on the GPS. The DPE didn't ask (why would he?). Though I do have an unfair advantage to most students, I am an engineer and maps/charts are actually fun for me.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Because technically you ARE responsible for being able to operate it.
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True. Agreed. No argument here.
I was merely pointing out that DPEs are happy with applicants who do not display over-reliance on the magenta line. My DPE was ol'-skoo. Hardazz but fair. Ahhh, the memories. :)
 
MauleSkinner said:
The fact that your backups to electronic devices are electronic means you ARE electronic dependent.
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Of that I am well aware, but paper charts just aren't common around here anymore. Our local FBOs quit selling them so you would have to mail order. My paid flying gigs have all gone electronic. I at least sleep a little easier knowing that even though they are all electronic, they are all capable of being independently powered and there is not a single point of failure for all. Even with my Ipad, it doesn't have a GPS chip, I use it as an EFB more so than flying the magenta line with it.

FWIW, I learned to fly long before GPS. I have more NDB approaches in my logbook than any other type, although I'm not quite old enough for the A-N navigation. I learned navigation the right way, and as the phrase goes, "Give me a map and a stopwatch and I could navigate the Alps in an airplane with no windows." (Bonus points if you get the reference)
 
midwestpa24 said:
Of that I am well aware, but paper charts just aren't common around here anymore. Our local FBOs quit selling them so you would have to mail order. My paid flying gigs have all gone electronic. I at least sleep a little easier knowing that even though they are all electronic, they are all capable of being independently powered and there is not a single point of failure for all. Even with my Ipad, it doesn't have a GPS chip, I use it as an EFB more so than flying the magenta line with it.

FWIW, I learned to fly long before GPS. I have more NDB approaches in my logbook than any other type, although I'm not quite old enough for the A-N navigation. I learned navigation the right way, and as the phrase goes, "Give me a map and a stopwatch and I could navigate the Alps in an airplane with no windows." (Bonus points if you get the reference)
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HFRO
 
midwestpa24 said:
Of that I am well aware, but paper charts just aren't common around here anymore. Our local FBOs quit selling them so you would have to mail order. My paid flying gigs have all gone electronic. I at least sleep a little easier knowing that even though they are all electronic, they are all capable of being independently powered and there is not a single point of failure for all. Even with my Ipad, it doesn't have a GPS chip, I use it as an EFB more so than flying the magenta line with it.

FWIW, I learned to fly long before GPS. I have more NDB approaches in my logbook than any other type, although I'm not quite old enough for the A-N navigation. I learned navigation the right way, and as the phrase goes, "Give me a map and a stopwatch and I could navigate the Alps in an airplane with no windows." (Bonus points if you get the reference)
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Hunt for Red October. ;)

Amazing how with paper charts we had other backup plans (or if you didn't, you should have, IMO), but with electronic charts the backup has to be an identical product.
 
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