In da hood

[HPNFlyGirl]

Yesterdays lesson was a good one. Hoodwork. Before take off I asked my CFI if he wanted to continue the lesson because the weather was getting kinda crappy. He said he wanted to continue.

We take off and I climb to 2000 feet my CFI tells me to put on the foggles. "Climb to 2500 ft., turn to a heading of east." Do this, do that.

Everynow & then when I went to scan my turn coordinator I could see a little bit of ground. The next time I did the scan to my turn coordinator I didn't seen any ground. We were in actual IFR conditions. Right after that I heard my CFI say "We need to head back we are in the clouds right now." I lifted up the foggles a little to see what it was like and it was awesome.

My CFI knew I wasn't cheating on my scan because we were in actual IFR conditions. Why people peak during this training is beyond me. As I am thinking it could save their life one day.

The only other time that I had been in the clouds in a GA aircraft was when I flew to Mark & Tom when we went to Ocrakoke back in January.

At the rate I am going I just may be instrument rated before I get my private. Jokingly of course.

What a great lesson.

 

[ScottM]

What a great lesson.

Brook,
I am glad you are getting your hours in and getting to the fun stuff, but, where you on an instrument flight plan? If not your CFI had no business flying you into IMC. If he did that he violated several FARs not too mention took a pretty good risk with your life that no one else was in that cloud. Since he was the one without a hood he should have been having you stay in VMC.

 

[jesse]

took a pretty good risk with your life that no one else was in that cloud.

and the lives of whoever might have legitimently been in that cloud.

Not your fault Brook. But I really do question the instructors judgement for vectoring you into IMC.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Brook,
I am glad you are getting your hours in and getting to the fun stuff, but, where you on an instrument flight plan? If not your CFI had no business flying you into IMC. If he did that he violated several FARs not too mention took a pretty good risk with your life that no one else was in that cloud. Since he was the one without a hood he should have been having you stay in VMC.

Yikes, no kidding! Since the instructor was giving the altitudes and headings (and 2500', at that, not a typical IFR altitude, even if not above 3000 AGL), it sounds like they were on a VFR flight plan and got into inadvertant IMC... especially his reaction to it. If they were on an IFR flight plan, they could have continued!

Brook, glad you did so well; that's a real confidence booster, isn't it!?

 

[ScottM]

and 2500', at that, not a typical IFR altitude

FYI it is around the Chicago/midwest. I see it a lot as the initial approach altitude until the FAF.

it sounds like they were on a VFR flight plan and got into inadvertant IMC... especially his reaction to it.

I guess my concern is that while CFI's for the most part are human (sarcasm) I would *hope* that they would not make this mistake which is one of the top three killer of pilots

Brook, glad you did so well; that's a real confidence booster, isn't it!?

Your CFI did take the correct action after getting into it, which is 180 and out.

I wonder if it was really MVFR which can look pretty intimadating. My CFI had me do a dual flight with him on a 3.5SM vis day once. It felt like IMC when you are used to VFR.

 

[EdFred]

My CFII called up GRR and got a local IFR block between 3,000 and 5,000 and in a certain area, and we maintaned separation that way.

 

[wsuffa]

Brook,
I am glad you are getting your hours in and getting to the fun stuff, but, where you on an instrument flight plan? If not your CFI had no business flying you into IMC. If he did that he violated several FARs not too mention took a pretty good risk with your life that no one else was in that cloud. Since he was the one without a hood he should have been having you stay in VMC.

He would have been OK if they were on an IFR clearance.

I've requested airspace blocks before under IFR, and readily been granted.

 

[Bill]

My CFI knew I wasn't cheating on my scan because we were in actual IFR conditions. Why people peak during this training is beyond me. As I am thinking it could save their life one day.

It is human nature to steal a peek. No matter how much you tell yourself you're not going to do it, but you will. I have a half of a manilla folder that I cut to fit around the glare shield of the 172, so it covers the entire side windshield area well up past where the foggles cut off.

Safety pilots laugh (it has "Cheater Blocker" written on it in big sharpie letters), but I won't be stealing any peeks when I practice.

Hmmm, maybe I should patent it, and make my fortune selling it at Sportys or King...

 

[gprellwitz]

It is human nature to steal a peek. No matter how much you tell yourself you're not going to do it, but you will. I have a half of a manilla folder that I cut to fit around the glare shield of the 172, so it covers the entire side windshield area well up past where the foggles cut off.

Safety pilots laugh (it has "Cheater Blocker" written on it in big sharpie letters), but I won't be stealing any peeks when I practice.

Hmmm, maybe I should patent it, and make my fortune selling it at Sportys or King...

That's great, as long as it doesn't block the safety pilot's view!

 

[Bill]

That's great, as long as it doesn't block the safety pilot's view!

Good point. I'll ask next time to see if it restricts vision.

 

[mikea]

The DE on my checkride put a chart on my side of the windscreen. He didn't have to.

The only clue I've gotten is seeing indirectly which side the light is coming from.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Why people peak during this training is beyond me. As I am thinking it could save their life one day.

I don't "peek" but I do have excellent peripheral vision and if there's information available, my brain uses it, consciously or not. We found this out the hard way when I hadn't had any actual in quite some time during instrument training, and then got into some actual and didn't fly so well.

I'm still trying to find the perfect view-limiting device. Right now the closest I've got is the Viban with a post-it note taped to the left side. That is, until I get a round tuit and take my dremel tool to my Frances hood so I can scan with my eyes instead of my head. The stock Frances hood is TOO GOOD! But with some minor mods it should be perfect.

 

[Michael]

i thought in class G you could enter a cloud without a IFR clearance, Not that they were in G ?

 

[poadeleted20]

i thought in class E you could enter a cloud without a IFR clearance, Not that they were in E ?

Class E is controlled airspace, and you must have an IFR clearance to get closer than 500/1000/2000 or 1000/1000/1 mile, depending on altitude. It's Class G ("uncontrolled") airspace which technically does not require a clearance to operate IFR, although if you do, you risk a 91.13 violation per the Murphy case. And I, too, await hearing more details on whether or not Brooks' instructor was shaving the regs too closely.

 

[Michael]

Class E is controlled airspace, and you must have an IFR clearance to get closer than 500/1000/2000 or 1000/1000/1 mile, depending on altitude. It's Class G ("uncontrolled") airspace which technically does not require a clearance to operate IFR, although if you do, you risk a 91.13 violation per the Murphy case. And I, too, await hearing more details on whether or not Brooks' instructor was shaving the regs too closely.

Thanks ron, That is what i was thinking of.

 

[HPNFlyGirl]

We were in class G airspace. I think he did that so I could see if I could get out of the clouds. My next lesson is Friday so I will ask him then why he did that.

 

[gismo]

We were in class G airspace. I think he did that so I could see if I could get out of the clouds. My next lesson is Friday so I will ask him then why he did that.

I suggest you ask him to get an IFR clearance before trying this again. Even in Class G you are supposed to be on a clearance which insures that you are the only IFR traffic in the area. Without one, you are relying entirely on the "big sky" theory of collision avoidance.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

We were in class G airspace. I think he did that so I could see if I could get out of the clouds. My next lesson is Friday so I will ask him then why he did that.

You were in the soup at less than 1200' AGL and not on an approach?!?

I mean, I'm a wimp and all, but yikes.

And of course, you weren't IN the clouds, 'cuz that's not OK even in class G, right? (Wow, two questions for the price of one...)

 

[RogerT]

Hmmm, maybe I should patent it, and make my fortune selling it at Sportys or King...

Just because they sell stuff for outrageous prices doesn't mean they
pay the supplier a good price for it.

 

[SkyHog]

Curious - I never thought about it before, but if there is no legal requirement to be on an IFR flight plan in the muck in class G, and there are cloud separation requirements for VFR flight, which one takes precedence.

Oh - and is an instrument rating required for flight in clouds within Class G?

 

[Michael]

Curious - I never thought about it before, but if there is no legal requirement to be on an IFR flight plan in the muck in class G, and there are cloud separation requirements for VFR flight, which one takes precedence.

Oh - and is an instrument rating required for flight in clouds within Class G?

Yes you would need to be Instrument current. Because it is uncontrolled, there shouldn't be any IFR flights in those clouds.

 

[gismo]

Yes you would need to be Instrument current. Because it is uncontrolled, there shouldn't be any IFR flights in those clouds.

Your first statement is correct but the second is very false. To legally operate in a cloud (or in visibilities less than a mile) you need to be IFR rated, IFR current, flying an IFR current and equipped airplane, and (per FAA rulings) on an instrument flight plan with an instrument clearance. One example of violating this would be a current IR pilot departing into low IFR with the intention of picking up his clearance while airborne before reaching the Class E (not legal or safe). IFR aircraft operate in class G all the time, and that's the primary reason that the FAA has violated pilots for going into class G IMC without a clearance. In order to fly an approach or depart from any airport where the class E doesn't reach the ground when the ceiling and/or vis is low requires that some time is spent in Class G IMC.

And even if it was legal without a clearance any pilot flying in IMC without one is taking a chance that no one else in the vicinity is stupid enough to do the same. Kinda like flying in VMC with your eyes closed. Then there's the whole issue of operating in IMC near the ground with little or no obstacle avoidance capability.

Now if this incident involved nothing more than poking through a small low cloud that the CFI could see around I don't see a big problem, but it sure sounds like the plane was in IMC for more than a couple seconds.

 

[Bill]

We take off and I climb to 2000 feet my CFI tells me to put on the foggles. "Climb to 2500 ft., turn to a heading of east." Do this, do that.

Everynow & then when I went to scan my turn coordinator I could see a little bit of ground. The next time I did the scan to my turn coordinator I didn't seen any ground. We were in actual IFR conditions. Right after that I heard my CFI say "We need to head back we are in the clouds right now." I lifted up the foggles a little to see what it was like and it was awesome.

We were in class G airspace. I think he did that so I could see if I could get out of the clouds. My next lesson is Friday so I will ask him then why he did that.

Not finding fault with you, but RDU elevation is 435msl, and you were 2500msl, I find it hard to believe you were in class G unless you had flown over some terrain that was at least 1300ft in elevation.

Is there some higher ground near your training area?

 

[RogerT]

i thought in class G you could enter a cloud without a IFR clearance, Not that they were in G ?

You can if you're rated, current & equiped. But you could also get hit with the old "careless and reckless" clause.

 

[Ghery]

The DE on my checkride put a chart on my side of the windscreen. He didn't have to.

The only clue I've gotten is seeing indirectly which side the light is coming from.

The other problem I run into is when I need to look at the compass to check my DG for precession. It's above the glare shield and you can't check it without seeing something more than the panel.