I'm thinking to hard... 177B vs. 182

N2124v

N2124v

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N2124V
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Ok, I'm over analyzing this and need some help. I've been looking at 177B's but keep thinking I am limiting myself on payload, so have started to look at 182's. Budget is around $65k. Mainly will be flying weekly trips of 150nm each way, with some mid week trips back and forth, by myself. However, there will be frequent trips of 350nm plus with three adults on board, and luggage. Want to stay in the 120-130kt range, and has to be a high wing, one frequent passenger can't climb up to get in. Any advice?

Also, any advice on airplane financing? My local bank is out, they don't like airplanes.

Thanks!
 
I love the Cardinal, but the 182 is the better 3-person hauler. Also better parts avail.
 
If you mean three adults total including the pilot, the Cardinal should do. If you mean pilot plus three, you'll need the 182. Also, if you're going into short, obstructed fields, the 182 will be a better choice. However, you can probably find a nicer Cardinal for $65K than a 182 for the same money (or spend less on a Cardinal than on an equally nice 182).
 
182 center sections are not made of unobtanium...
 
The 182 will burn more gas and it harder to get in and out of, if you have any mobility problems. That being said, I think the 182 is a more capable airplane. If you can stand the extra gas, go for the 182. The insurance, maintenance, etc., will probably be comparable, although 182 parts will have more availability. Consider that Cessna is still making the 182. It is a great airplane. A few years ago, I was in an F33 Bonanza. There was a 182 flying from the same airport, to the same airport. We could see him below us, and he maintained his relative lead all the way. It was a fairly new 182.
 
182 center sections are not made of unobtanium...
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Good point Tony! I forgot about that. I think the fixed gear 177 is quite a bit slower than a 182 also.
 
When you buy a nice 177 with a no corrosion wing carry thru, what parts will the owner be required to buy that the insurance company isn't going to pay for?
 
Ron Levy said:
If you mean three adults total including the pilot, the Cardinal should do. If you mean pilot plus three, you'll need the 182. Also, if you're going into short, obstructed fields, the 182 will be a better choice. However, you can probably find a nicer Cardinal for $65K than a 182 for the same money (or spend less on a Cardinal than on an equally nice 182).
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Don't forget the limits of the 1968 150 horse 177, be careful which 177 you buy, several do not have the capabilities that the later models do, read "Standard Catalog of CESSNA Single Engine Aircraft". both aircraft are there with the loads and speeds.

a 177 isn't a 182 neither will do book figures on a hot day.
 
neither are the 177's, it's simply a matter of money.
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:). Isn't just about everything! I personally like the 177 and hope to own one someday. Liz (Azure) could give him some advice about the carrythrough.
 
I guess the other concern I have is the lycoming vs. continental engines, and the lower tbo on the 182. I know tbo can be a fictional number, but how big a difference is the overhaul cost? Also looking at post 1970 177B.
 
All my previous planes (172, 150, and mooney m20e) had lycomings.
 
I have had two Continental's (still have one) and other than them not liking 100LL a whole lot, no issues. I have heard the Continentals leak more oil, but the ones I have had didn't really reflect that. Tom can give you better advice than I can though.
 
N2124v said:
I guess the other concern I have is the lycoming vs. continental engines, and the lower tbo on the 182. I know tbo can be a fictional number, but how big a difference is the overhaul cost?
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Don George charges about $20K for an O-470-K overhaul, but only about $14K for an O-360. I believe that price differential is typical.
 
Ron Levy said:
By maybe 10%. However, it also burns about 20% less fuel/hr and costs a good bit less for engine overhaul (4 cyl vs 6 cyl).
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That really depends upon whether you want to run the 177 at 182 speeds, or run the 182 at 177 speeds.

the 182 gives you more options. and the 0-470 is as bullet proof as any engine gets.

The big bore continental parts are expensive, but so are the Lycoming, these cylinders do get overhauled, but I haven't done one in so long I would hate to guess what the cost would be.
Before I bought any 182, I'd like to read the last overhaul records and see if we have over bored cylinders or a cut crank. those are major factors in the cost of any overhaul.

in fact that would go for a 177 also.
 
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With the avionics it has, I think you could buy a handheld GPS with weather and be set up just fine. If it has spent its life around Austin, corrosion is probably not a big issue either.
 
I love Cardinals for the ease of getting in and out. One would of been great for my wife and I was looking hard for one until the Warrior deal fell into our laps.
 
Tom-D said:
I don't, I do not believe he can get a 0-360 out the door cheaper than I can get a 0-200 completed.
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We've heard your stories about what it costs you to overhaul engines before, and they never bear any resemblence to what the factories or well-known overhaul shops charge.
 
Tom-D said:
That really depends upon whether you want to run the 177 at 182 speeds, or run the 182 at 177 speeds.
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You can certainly slow a 182 to 177 speeds and save a lot of gas, but the reverse isn't possible. You couldn't make a 177 go 130 knots in cruise without putting JATO bottles on it. As I said, the 177B will go 10% slower on 20% less gas at normal cruise.
 
Ron Levy said:
We've heard your stories about what it costs you to overhaul engines before, and they never bear any resemblence to what the factories or well-known overhaul shops charge.
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that is the advantage of using your local A&P.

But the trade a plane list is all major shops and their prices run about the same for the same quality engines, in both brands.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can certainly slow a 182 to 177 speeds and save a lot of gas, but the reverse isn't possible. You couldn't make a 177 go 130 knots in cruise without putting JATO bottles on it. As I said, the 177B will go 10% slower on 20% less gas at normal cruise.
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I'll give you that, that is why I said the 182 has more options. You can run faster and carry more when you need to.

Plus when you buy the right aircraft and care for it your engine overhaul will disappear because the majority of owners do not keep their aircraft long enough to wear it out. that is why we see so many aircraft with 1500 hours engine time and 20 years since last rebuild.

So, IMHO the 182 at the same price is a better aircraft for the mission, and the numbers sold are pretty much the proof the public thought so too.
 
Ron Levy said:
:rolleyes:
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You can roll your eyes if you like but you can thank the local A&Ps who overhaul these engines at a minimal cost to the owners, that is why the major shops have dropped their prices because they know they are now competing with me and a multitude of other A&Ps.

as for the quality issues, we all use the same machine shops that are required to comply with the same manuals and procedures that we all must. and all overhauls must meet FAR 43.2. If you choose to believe all the advertising hype it's your money.

the bottom line here is simple T-A-P average for both engines in question is some where between 16,000 and 20,000 for both brands.
 
It comes down to this. Do you drive a car or a truck, as a daily driver?

If you like cars, 177.

If you like trucks, 182.

:)
 
N2124v said:
I guess the other concern I have is the lycoming vs. continental engines, and the lower tbo on the 182.
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Put an oil filter on that and the TBO increases.

That 182 in the trade a plane ad looks decent, provided it doesn't have any damage history. Check Vref and bargain, you might get a deal.

Personally, leaving budget to add avionics isn't what I would do. Slap an iPad yoke mount on there and be done with it. If you really want an auto-pilot, shop for a bird with one already installed.

Like you, I was drawn to the sleek Cardinal. I considered getting a 177RG instead of my 182. If I had found the right one, I might have. But there are a lot more 182s to pick and choose from than 177s.
 
Morne said:
Personally, leaving budget to add avionics isn't what I would do. Slap an iPad yoke mount on there and be done with it.
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That's a good solution for VFR operations, but it won't get you the /G suffix so you can accept direct clearances or the ability to fly GPS approaches or the ability to fly the "blue routes" or the ability to fly ADF/DME-required approaches, or...well, I think you get the point. As a matter of practicality, an IFR/approach GPS has become something highly desireable for anyone flying places IFR.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's a good solution for VFR operations, but it won't get you the /G suffix so you can accept direct clearances or the ability to fly GPS approaches or the ability to fly the "blue routes" or the ability to fly ADF/DME-required approaches, or...well, I think you get the point. As a matter of practicality, an IFR/approach GPS has become something highly desireable for anyone flying places IFR.
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True, that plane is /A, just like my 182. The thing is, with geo-referenced plates on the iPad you can fly the VOR approaches with GPS assistance.

Maybe I just haven't run into enough airports that only had GPS approaches.:dunno:
 
Morne said:
True, that plane is /A, just like my 182. The thing is, with geo-referenced plates on the iPad you can fly the VOR approaches with GPS assistance.

Maybe I just haven't run into enough airports that only had GPS approaches.:dunno:
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It won't be long before you might have to fly 100 NM to locate an airport with an ILS or VOR approach.
 
Morne said:
True, that plane is /A, just like my 182. The thing is, with geo-referenced plates on the iPad you can fly the VOR approaches with GPS assistance.
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Dunno 'bout you, but I (and my trainees) can all fly a VOR approach just fine without GPS assistance -- even partial panel. :wink2:

Maybe I just haven't run into enough airports that only had GPS approaches.:dunno:
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In the words of Yoda -- "You will."

But even today, there are a lot of VOR and ILS approaches which require ADF or DME, and while your 182 may have DME, many (if not most) don't. The only approach to my favorite airport eatery on the Eastern Shore of Maryland (KCGE) requires either ADF or an approach GPS, and another food favorite here (KESN) requires either DME or GPS for every approach.
 
My desire to buy a plane became more intense a while back, and has receded at the moment... mostly from the time requirements to care for elderly parents... sadly.

However, the two planes: 182 and 177 were on the top of my wish list. The question for the crowd:

I would have to tie down this plane outside in NorthEast weather.

I know about the carry-through corrosion problems for the 177. If I were to get a good corrosion-free 177, and store it outside, how much of an issue is the potential for corrosion? How difficult is it to keep the carry through dry?

My thought at the time is that the 182 would be a better bet for outside storage. Yes? No? Significantly so?

-Skip
 
I drive a truck and my wife, god love her, could pack a small uhaul for a weekend trip.

I know I won't get a dollar for dollar return on adding an autopilot, it just seems that the 182's in my price range all have inop Cessna 300a's in them, or none at all.
 
Ron, the ad he linked showed a 182 with DME.

And yes, my bird has DME and an ADF. And yes, I leave my iPad turned off when shooting approaches with my instructor (still learning for the IR).
 
Morne said:
Ron, the ad he linked showed a 182 with DME.
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Fine -- still won't get him to lunch at Kay's (KCGE) if the weather's down, even with an iPad on the yoke. Just sayin...and that situation is only going to get worse.

And yes, my bird has DME and an ADF. And yes, I leave my iPad turned off when shooting approaches with my instructor (still learning for the IR).
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I'd only require you to turn off the GPS in it -- you could still use it as your EFB. :wink2:
 
If I were looking for a 182, a 430W (minimum) would be required equipment. It is much, much cheaper to buy one with it already installed.
 
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