"im afraid of those little planes"

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I guess im just annoyed with the level of ignorance and fear that aviation seems to receive from the ground dwellers.

So, is there a way around this?

Some people are maroons. Their problem. Not yours.

 

[dmccormack]

As for the other responses, its given me something to think about. Sounds like my best course of action is not to argue the point with these people, simply accept their irrational, illogical, infuriating opinions regarding aviation. Thanks for the suggestion about the Young Eagles program, im starting to look into that.

My wife is a fearful flyer -- doesn't like to fly unless it's very smooth. So I sweat the weather before any trip, looking for signs that indicate turbulence. Even IMC is no big deal, as long as it's smooth.

As far as "Irrational" fear -- it most certainly is rational. People don't like to be up without something solid below them (ask Psychologists and they'll tell you fear of heights is the most common).

People also don't like the idea of falling from a great height knowing they will die at the inevitable collision with earth. You can explain glide and power off and everything else, but they have an innate sense that on the ground is good, not on the ground, not so good (which is why Army confidence courses and jump training has lots of high stuff -- ropes, towers, slides, etc)..

So instead of casting the fear as "irrational," your passengers would be better served by sensitivity to their plight, careful control of the conditions and the airplane, and a slow and steady build up of confidence in you and airplanes over time.

 

[Everskyward]

Sounds like my best course of action is not to argue the point with these people, simply accept their irrational, illogical, infuriating opinions regarding aviation.

Just look at it this way. There must be some hobbies that some of your friends have that you have absolutely no interest in trying. Would you like it if they went on and on about it?

 

[NotSure]

Just look at it this way. There must be some hobbies that some of your friends have that you have absolutely no interest in trying. Would you like it if they went on an on about it?

Point taken.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Why try?

Public Relations. Thanks to the media, everyone is by default an opponent of everything related to flying, and will happily vote against your local airport. If we don't at least try to take non-pilots flying and show them the beauty of flight and explain why airplanes and airports are good, NONE of us will be flying any more.

We owe it to all future generations of pilots to keep, and share, the faith.

Frankly, I'm surprised anyone who's a pilot can have a "why try" attitude about anything at all.

 

[ClimbnSink]

If you push something scary you end up sounding like a cult recruiter, actually cults are more subtle and successful than GA would be recruiters. Everyone is going to know you are a pilot offer a ride then let it be, it is the best sales tactic for selling scary stuff. Well second best- Hot chicks are number one, but we are talking personal promotion not paid.

Public Relations. Thanks to the media, everyone is by default an opponent of everything related to flying, and will happily vote against your local airport. If we don't at least try to take non-pilots flying and show them the beauty of flight and explain why airplanes and airports are good, NONE of us will be flying any more.

We owe it to all future generations of pilots to keep, and share, the faith.

Frankly, I'm surprised anyone who's a pilot can have a "why try" attitude about anything at all.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Kent's post above should be copyrighted, published to every new pilot.

I'm flattered... I must admit that as I was writing it, I was thinking that I should make a "how do give someone a first flight" video - Complete with someone receiving their actual first flight!

I've also started a "Things that should be taught to new pilots that aren't in the PTS" list for when I'm a CFI, and this is on top.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If you push something scary you end up sounding like a cult recruiter, actually cults are more subtle and successful than GA would be recruiters. Everyone is going to know you are a pilot offer a ride then let it be, it is the best sales tactic for selling scary stuff. Well second best- Hot chicks are number one, but we are talking personal promotion not paid.

Don't push. Pull.

You can't force anyone, and I don't try to force them. There are many great ideas for how to "pull" in this thread (talking about the flight you took over the weekend during your Monday small talk; show pictures, even passively; etc.) to get potential pax *interested*. Only then do you ask if they'd like to go fly. If they say no, again, don't push. You can't reach everyone.

But to not TRY? No way.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Peggy, I've got to disagree with you on this one.

There was a time when I would agree with you, but then I grew to understand the concerns of non-pilots.

1) Flying is NOT more dangerous than driving. Most car accidents are attributed to the actions of someone else. When you fly you are primarily a victim of your OWN actions. Yes, aircraft / aircraft collisions occur, but at a far less percentage rate than with aircraft.

Actually, it is more dangerous to fly in a light GA aircraft than to drive. (9-fold in one survey) That is the reason we spend so much time in retraining and re-examination. That is why we come onto this board, read NTSB reports, keep clean and sober, and learn all we can about safe flight.

2) OK, sure, inexperienced pilots are, well, less experienced. But again, you're a victim of your own actions. Don't be flying someone into someplace new. Most people who take people up tend to fly around the patch. Airspace that they're pretty familiar with since they've probably trained in that area. Flying to Sedona with only 60 hours on a windy day isn't the wisest thing to do.

I don't really enjoy the thought of my children sitting in the car with teenagers driving either. The combination of drinking, cars, and pubescent hormones after midnight that I conjure up in my mind gives me the shivers. (9-fold in GA.) As the hours of experience grow, so does the confidence of those around us. The problem is an eager new pilot is just scary because things can get really bad really fast -- ie, JFK jr and Corey Liddle.

3) Age of the aircraft is irrelevant! Fact is, my 43 year old Cessna is in better shape than my 11 year old car! Does your car have to go through 14 man hours a year (minimum in the case of a 172) of inspection? Nope. Most people drive their cars "until the wheels fall off". Aircraft, on the other hand, have massive amounts of inspection and maintenance. Sure, there's bad A&Ps out there, but you are PIC, you are responsible! Don't go cheap, and don't let them, or you, bend the rules.

You know that and I know that, but why would you expect your next-door neighbor to know that? Once again, his concern is valid until you have a chance to let him know how really safe your ancient steed is. "What makes my 36-year-old Cessna safe is the maintenance and the upgraded electronics and other equipment we keep adding. We will be spending over $20,000 on it this year in scheduled maintenance."

 

[EdFred]

Bah. As a new driver I got in an accident within my first 600 hours of driving. I've also had another car accident and 2 moving violations in my first seven years. So far in seven and a half years of flying, I have had zero incidents, and no FAA violations. Oh, and I fly more miles in a year than I drive. My truck is 3 years old, and I only have 22,000 miles on it. In my Cherokee I put on 50,000 miles in 4 years. I haven't added up the Comanche distances in the past 8 months.

So would you rather fly with me, or drive with me?

 

[ClimbnSink]

N=1. Hmmm.
One thing to remember is folks fear of little airplanes is rational and if you argue with the rationality of someone's fears you will lose every time. Unless they are males under a certain age making light of their fears won't work either.

 

[Trapper John]

Thanks to the media, everyone is by default an opponent of everything related to flying...

Without pilots performing stupid pilot tricks, there wouldn't be much to write about. Why blame the media when we're our own worst enemy?


Trapper John

 

[dmccormack]

This might help (These ideas apply to any first time flight, not just an "Official" Discovery Flight).


Considerations:

• Clear morning (avoid thermal turbulence)
• Well maintained and clean airplane
• Short (avoid possibility of motion sickness)
• Comfortable, clean headsets
• Breath mints for the CFI
• Explain everything that will happen before it happens without information overload
• Time at the controls in flight regimes that don't require grabbing the yoke
• If time allows -- fly over landmarks familiar to the person taking the flight
• Work through any apprehension with care

We would all do well to heed to advice to be better advocates for GA, and less interested in "showing off."

 

[el con]

I'm only at 220 hrs flt time so I don't ask anyone to go.
If someone asks ,I'll ask them what kind of life insurance they have, if that doesn't work I'll ask them if they get sea sick, like roller coasters, etc. I'll then tell them some of the stories about landing in cross winds , and a few other interesting experience's.
If they still are interested then we go.
My biggest fear is someone panicing, grabbing the yoke,etc.
When they do say something about, " did you hear about that small plane that crashed the other day", I usually say "yeah, that lousy media ,why don't they print or broadcast all the car wrecks that happened the same day", probably 10 people died in cars in the state the same day that 1 pilot was killed.
I fly because I love it, I'm not out to convert everyone, but I'll share with anyone who's truly interested.

 

[Matthew]

I don't ask anybody - I let them ask. The few times I did ask, I either got the scared look or the "I'll call you" and never heard back. So, it's usually just me flying alone. Folks that know I fly also know they have an open ivitation to come along, but most just don't. I try to take a lot of pictures, then use them as screensavers or wallpaper on my computers - that usually leads to conversations and maybe it gets some positive responses. Most folks have made up their own minds long ago on if they want to fly or not, and I can't change that.

I leave a stack of AOPA Pilot and SSA Soaring magazines on my desk at work, they seem to make the rounds, but I never see who takes them. I just notice them around the building.

I do get a lot of surprised looks when I talk about the amount of training, and recurrent training, that it takes to maintain even a lowly PP. I think the general public doesn't see a PP as a 'real' pilot, not unless you are flying big iron.

So, I just keep on and try to maintain a positive GA image.

 

[geneseib]

I pretty much stopped giving rides. A work colleague in here in NE asked for a ride, I gave her one along with her mother from Beatrice, over her farm, and back (she lives down south- for those in Lincoln wondering). before we took off, she had her husband come out with her young son so her son could see mommy flying. After the flight, her husband said, in all seriousness, if I had crashed, he was going to "sue my estate for all it had". I told him not to believe everything he reads in USA Today....pilots aren't all rich.

I expected this sort of comment out east...but not in NE...

Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

 

[Everskyward]

Last summer the company I work for had an aviation-themed summer picnic which was held at a fly-in community where one of the pilots lives. Two pilots offered to give rides in small airplanes to anyone who wanted one. There were actually lots of people who were interested and I didn't hear any "would never go up in one of those death traps" sentiment. Even though this is an aviation company, many of the support staff have never been in one of our work airplanes, let alone a small GA one.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Without pilots performing stupid pilot tricks, there wouldn't be much to write about. Why blame the media when we're our own worst enemy?

True, but planes crash sometimes despite the best efforts of a very good pilot - The media will over-cover airplane crashes regardless of the cause. There are plenty of stupid driver tricks too, but you don't hear about those far and wide.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

Amen!

 

[brcase]

I'm only at 220 hrs flt time so I don't ask anyone to go.
If someone asks ,I'll ask them what kind of life insurance they have, if that doesn't work I'll ask them if they get sea sick, like roller coasters, etc. I'll then tell them some of the stories about landing in cross winds , and a few other interesting experience's.
If they still are interested then we go.
My biggest fear is someone panicing, grabbing the yoke,etc.
When they do say something about, " did you hear about that small plane that crashed the other day", I usually say "yeah, that lousy media ,why don't they print or broadcast all the car wrecks that happened the same day", probably 10 people died in cars in the state the same day that 1 pilot was killed.
I fly because I love it, I'm not out to convert everyone, but I'll share with anyone who's truly interested.

I loved how one flight instructor I know started his Ground School Class. He brought in a local Boise newspaper. On the front page of the newspaper is a C-150 hanging upside down from some power lines. He goes on to explain that the accident happened in Seattle and there were no injuries, but it made the front page of our our local newspaper. Then he opens up the newspaper to page 4 where the is a 3 inch long article about a fatal vehical accident on the freeway here in Boise. The point being if auto accidents where reported the same way aviations accidents were, people would probably be very scared of driving.

Admittedly this says little about how dangerous flying really is, only that the perception of it from the media is probably skewed.

Brian

 

[brcase]

When I first started instructing I did some research on how safe flying is.

The 1st thing you have to realize about any statistics you see is there are basic 3 things to measure.

• Accidents
• Injuries
• Fatalities.

When you see a safety statistic, which of these are included? It is easy to include or exclude one or more of these to make the statistics look they way you want them to.
**********
Fatalities are usually the easiest to track and as I recall that is what I focused on mostly in my research. I was really trying to answer the question “is flying safer than the drive to the airport”

So with the best numbers I could find at the time I compared the risk of 1 hour of driving compared to 1 hour of flying.

What I recall finding is that for the airlines this is definitely true, commercially flying is definitely safer than driving, hour for hour.

For GA aircraft it generally is not, you are more likely to die in the airplane than the car on the way to the airport. As I recall by a factor of 2:1.

If you ride your motorcycle to the airport there is about the same that chance you will die on the motorcycle as in the airplane.

If you drive to the airport and don’t fly in bad weather or below 500 feet except for TO and landings, then your odds are about even between flying and driving.

************
Remember these are only tracking fatalities per vehicle hour. I seem to recall the statistics that say GA flying is 9 times more dangerous than driving are probably counting the risk of being in an accident, many of which you would probably walk away from. They may also be counting passenger hours instead of vehicle hours as well.

These numbers were ran over 10 years ago, I no longer have the numbers I used and my memory isn’t what it used to be so if someone wants to research and provide updated numbers it would be interesting to see what someone else comes up with.


The point to be taken is that a statistic by itself is meaningless unless you know specially what and how they measured it.

I am still up in the air (pun intended) about whether flying is “Safe” or “Dangerous” I really think the answer is somewhere in between. We need to remind pilots that it can quickly become dangerous, because pilots have the most control over not allowing it to become dangerous. So pilots need to think of it as “Dangerous”

As for the non-flying public we need to promote how safe it is, because we are constantly trying to reduce the risks, much more so than when we drive. I do however emphasize that it is only as safe the pilot and more than any other form of transportation the pilot determines if a flight is safe or dangerous. In flying if something goes bad it is more often than not the pilots fault as opposed to other forms of transportation where it is often caused by someone else. We really want the non-flying public to realize that most of the flying we do is as “Safe” as driving in a car.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

My biggest fear is someone panicing, grabbing the yoke,etc.

Happened to one of my instructors.

With a guy who was starting his commercial rating. Really.

The instructor suggested a "short field" landing just to keep things interesting, a gust blew them off the center-line and the pilot froze on the controls and wouldn't let go. They went into the trees off to the side of the runway.

 

[gismo]

Happened to one of my instructors.

With a guy who was starting his commercial rating. Really.

The instructor suggested a "short field" landing just to keep things interesting, a gust blew them off the center-line and the pilot froze on the controls and wouldn't let go. They went into the trees off to the side of the runway.

A good friend of my parents was killed by a student who froze on the controls during stall practice. The student was a 6'5" 230 lb farm boy
and as far as anyone could tell the CFI was unable to override the student's full aft elevator input before they hit the ground.

 

[dmccormack]

Happened to one of my instructors.

With a guy who was starting his commercial rating. Really.

The instructor suggested a "short field" landing just to keep things interesting, a gust blew them off the center-line and the pilot froze on the controls and wouldn't let go. They went into the trees off to the side of the runway.

The side of the neck near the carotid provides a very good pressure point to shift attention from yoke clutch to the immediate neck pain.

Probably won't help in landing freeze ups (not enough time), but in "hold the yoke back" scenarios, it's worth a shot.

 

[rottydaddy]

The side of the neck near the carotid provides a very good pressure point to shift attention from yoke clutch to the immediate neck pain.

Probably won't help in landing freeze ups (not enough time), but in "hold the yoke back" scenarios, it's worth a shot.

Reminds me of my friend's intro heli lesson: the (very large) instructor raised his elbow before they started up the machine, and asked "Do you see this?"

My friend said "Yes."

"Do you know what it is?"

"Yes... it's, uh, your elbow."

"Right. If I say 'Let go of the controls!' and you do not let go immediately, you will feel this against your temple!"



But I can see it how these disasters happen. The first impulse is to try to control the plane; not get into a martial arts demo with the student.

 

[Lawreston]

First, the photos; then, the comments.

HR

 

[Geico266]

Allowing children to play around, under, and in airplanes and avionics equipment is a recipe for complacency leading to potential disaster. Would you let those kids to ride a creeper under a car? Would you let them play with the controls of a car?

This hits a nerve because a friend of mine let his kids play around their vehicles. One was killed when the other one took the emergency brake off and the truck rolled over the other kid. The parents were sitting on the front porch and watched the whole thing.

JMHO

 

[Lawreston]

First, the passengers(4 and 6, or was it 3 and 5?) had to examine the airplane. When they(and their Dad) pronounced it fit it was time for a ride. Note that I said "ride," rather than "flight." I spent close to 45 minutes taxiing back & forth the taxiway, all with their headsets listening to the activity on the ground and in the air. The boys(grand-kids) thought it was the height of excitement. All the controls were described, what passengers aren't allowed to touch. We talked to other pilots leaving and landing(other pilots knew what was happening in my plane). I later heard that Goffstown, NH school playgrounds were alive with stories about Grampa Jerry's airplane.
Summer of 2010? Perhaps, the next step.

HR

 

[Lawreston]

Point taken; but you'll note that an adult head is also present -- their father.
Correction: I thought I had posted my son's photo with the boys.
And you posted while I was still writing the commentary. )

HR

 

[Danos]

I had a guy once tell me "No. I don't fly with amateurs". Ah well.

 

[twdeckard]

Note that I said "ride," rather than "flight." I spent close to 45 minutes taxiing back & forth the taxiway, all with their headsets listening to the activity on the ground and in the air.

I was hanging around Spruce Creek in Florida and saw someone giving rides in some frisky looking homebuilt. We were parked in a car and this thing went taxing by back and forth at least a dozen times, with a different kid sitting behind the same Grandpa each time.

In retrospect it was probably a pretty cool ride for someones birthday party, no angst about who would be allowed to go and who wouldn't but everyone got to wear the headsets and make some noise. I am sure the future devoted managed to lobby for actual levitation on some later date.

 

[EdFred]

I had a guy once tell me "No. I don't fly with amateurs". Ah well.

That's when you tell him you probably have more hours than the co pilot he had on his last commercial flight.

 

[dmccormack]

But I can see it how these disasters happen. The first impulse is to try to control the plane; not get into a martial arts demo with the student.

Oh, it won't be a demo....

 

[Clark1961]

Oh, it won't be a demo....

A person can't very well maintain a death grip on the yoke and protect their throat at the same time now can they?

I had an instructor ask me if I was planning to kill him today. It was pre-taxi so I wasn't too worried and responded that no, I hadn't planned to kill him but that I knew how to do it. I think he took me a little bit seriously...

 

[EvilEagle]

Some people will just never get it - awesome advice on many points here.

My experience in GA is very similar to some. I was 16 years old and my friends and family were lining up to hop in my 150 and go flying! (also, was a GREAT first date... )

Fast forward to present day - USAF occationally gives "incentive rides" to people who win awards, etc. I've probably given 50 incentive rides in the F-15 over the last 10 years. Even guys who work on the jets sometimes get scared - seems that watching us fly everyday, fly into combat to get shot at and still come back without a scratch isn't enough to convince some people that they won't die in an airplane. We even have ejection seats!

I know that GA flying is much different than strapping into 59k pounds of thrust, but the pricipal is similar. Some people would rather watch planes fly than fly in them.

I use a lot of the techniques listed here when i fly new people whether it be in my Glasair or my Eagle. The best advice I've been given is to keep them comfortable and as informed as they can handle.

 

[EdFred]

What do I need to do to get one of those incentive rides?

 

[jstro]

What I tell my wife (who has been very supportive of my recent return to aviation, even buying me a new Telex ANR headset this Xmas!) and what I tell myself is that if I don't feel at least as safe flying an airplane as I do driving a car every day with the other nuts on the tollway, I probably won't do it. The reason is that I do this for the sheer enjoyment, and I'm not going to enjoy myself if I'm stressing and worrying about my safety. Diligence, care and safety first, yes always, but I don't want to fly in fear. That's the level of competence and comfort I need to fly. I'm not sure what to tell folks who are afraid. I could go through the statistics but a lot of folks just don't get it. For me personally, I really don't say anything about it unless I'm asked. A few people at work have asked about the photos on my wall, with the "oh that's really dangerous!" kind of attitude. I try to explain to them what I said here but I really don't try too hard.

Now, motorcycles, I feel they are too dangerous for my comfort level. I had one accident already and I don't ride anymore. YMMV.

 

[AuntPeggy]

What do I need to do to get one of those incentive rides?

+ 1

 

[Lawreston]

My Dad grew up with a guy who later flew the AF jets out of Dow AF Base(Maine). Colonel Hendrickson used to tell about how much he enjoyed flying the jets; "but I'm always happy to get home so I can fly my Piper Cub. There's nothing like seat of the pants flying."

HR

 

[brcase]

My Dad grew up with a guy who later flew the AF jets out of Dow AF Base(Maine). Colonel Hendrickson used to tell about how much he enjoyed flying the jets; "but I'm always happy to get home so I can fly my Piper Cub. There's nothing like seat of the pants flying."

HR

+1
When I took our Scout over the the Airforce Base to do some Glider tows for their Airshow a Major made the following comment. "The F-15 is a great airplane to go to War in, The Scout is much better for Elk Hunting"

Brian