Illegal to back-taxi??!!

alfadog

alfadog

Final Approach
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alfadog
Another headscratcher at non-towered X51. Another in that about two years ago I wrote them up to the FAA for trying to act as air traffic control and tell me that I had to land on the "preferred" runway when I was looking for crosswind practice. I ignored them then and I plan on ignoring them now.

Here is the story. Took some folks up today for a bit of flying experience (for them). They are students at the A&P school. We were doing t&g's and then a full stop. We we ended up dragging it in and plopping down on the numbers nice and slow. I braked to a full stop and spun around to see how we did. Mind you, we were the only folks using the airport. We were about 500 feet down the runway, turn-off 1000 feet ahead. I turn again then realized it would be best if I back-taxied as we were going to the ramp behind us to switch the right seat pax. I call the back-taxi and go to the ramp. The Unicom (County employee manager) comes on and tells me that "back-taxi not permitted". I say I am not aware of anything like that and go about my business. While we are in the pattern he comes back and asks me to stop by his office to look at something. Yeah, right. I am nice but no way I am going out of my way for that. I ask him what he is looking at, FAR, Advisory Circular, what? He says it is the operating agreement for the airport. I tell him I will come by the next time I am getting gas over there but not today. Leave it friendly.

I am not finding this agreement online but wonder how an operating agreement at a non-towered airport can control the flight operations of visiting pilots???

Anyone have experience with something like this?
 
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alfadog said:
I am not finding this agreement online but wonder how an operating agreement at a non-towered airport can control the flight operations of visiting pilots???

Anyone have experience with something like this?
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No direct experience. Play dumb. Where is the operating agreement published, and how does it supercede the FARs and the AIM?

-Skip
 
Jon, did it sound like an old Cuban guy, or a younger fella?


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Non-towered, announce back-taxi.
Towered, ask permision.

Unless its in the AFD, I don't know why you couldn't at a non-towered field.
 
alfadog said:
Another headscratcher at non-towered X51. Another in that about two years ago I wrote them up to the FAA for trying to act as air traffic control and tell me that I had to land on the "preferred" runway when I was looking for crosswind practice. I ignored them then and I plan on ignoring them now.

Here is the story. Took some folks up today for a bit of flying experience (for them). They are students at the A&P school. We were doing t&g's and then a full stop. We we ended up dragging it in and plopping down on the numbers nice and slow. I braked to a full stop and spun around to see how we did. Mind you, we were the only folks using the airport. We were about 500 feet down the runway, turn-off 1000 feet ahead. I turn again then realized it would be best if I back-taxied as we were going to the ramp behind us to switch the right seat pax. I call the back-taxi and go to the ramp. The Unicom (County employee manager) comes on and tells me that "back-taxi not permitted". I say I am not aware of anything like that and go about my business. While we are in the pattern he comes back and asks me to stop by his office to look at something. Yeah, right. I am nice but no way I am going out of my way for that. I ask him what he is looking at, FAR, Advisory Circular, what? He says it is the operating agreement for the airport. I tell him I will come by the next time I am getting gas over there but not today. Leave it friendly.

I am not finding this agreement online but wonder how an operating agreement at a non-towered airport can control the flight operations of visiting pilots???

Anyone have experience with something like this?
Click to expand...

What state? What airport?
 
KeyWestPhotog said:
Jon, did it sound like an old Cuban guy, or a younger fella?


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Click to expand...


Younger guy, I think. Terry was his name. Like I said, I kept it friendly. Know him?
 
Homestead General / Homestead, FL

Southwest of Miami, best airport to fly into for the NASCAR race.


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They need to get it put in the AFD. Although X47 is now controlled, they have had a similar requirement for years about full stop only and using only approved taxi patterns.
 
alfadog said:
X51, FL.
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You can go to the state aeronautics website for information. Airports are allowed to establish their own rules as long as it is not discriminatory.

Airports are also governed by local ordinances.

If it's a problem contact the State Aeronautics Agency and ask for a clarification. There is also an ADO (Airport Districts Office) in Orlando, they can also assist you in information.
 
Not in the A/FD? It doesn't exist. I had a radio cop try and tell me that straight in approaches to PWT are not allowed some years back. I suggested he ready the A/FD. Besides, there are instrument approaches that wind up as straight in approaches. What would that bozo suggest there?

Anyway, you did right. Ignore the guy.
 
RotorAndWing said:
You can go to the state aeronautics website for information. Airports are allowed to establish their own rules as long as it is not discriminatory.

Airports are also governed by local ordinances.

If it's a problem contact the State Aeronautics Agency and ask for a clarification. There is also an ADO (Airport Districts Office) in Orlando, they can also assist you in information.
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Thanks. I will stop in their office and see what they have. It'll just have to wait until I can do it without burning extra gas.
 
Velocity173 said:
They need to get it put in the AFD. Although X47 is now controlled, they have had a similar requirement for years about full stop only and using only approved taxi patterns.
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I dropped jumpers there for a while. Don't remember the taxi patterns, but they did have the no T&G rule published in the AFD way back when. That was done to get a handle on all the Riddle guys that were going there for pattern work.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Doesn't have to. I know that seems odd, but it's true.

However you can bring this issue up to the state aeronautics board and they can have the airport publish such restrictions.
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Heck of rule...an unpublished rule. Must be difficult to get people to follow those secret rules. Seems simple enough to publish in the AFD and that's it.
 
Anymouse said:
I dropped jumpers there for a while. Don't remember the taxi patterns, but they did have the no T&G rule published in the AFD way back when. That was done to get a handle on all the Riddle guys that were going there for pattern work.
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Well, that prohibition is long gone as is Riddle (in Miami, that is). Now the pattern is usually full of ADF and Dean students. Today was a break as it was lateish and we had the place to ourselves.
 
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Jon, I have flown in there numerous times. The older Cuban gentlemen who manages the airport is a great knowledgeable guy. The younger folks that works for him, tend to do whatever the home based glider pilots tell them to do/complain about. I have a feeling knowing these folks, is that the "homeboys" were in the FBO BS'n when you were going through your procedures, and told the young fellas to get on the radio and put a stop to it. I have been in there before and seen them give folks a hard time via radio just to deter non-locals from taking up there airspace. Especially those students that don't speak English from Air-Sal, if you know what I mean.


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charris911 said:
Heck of rule...an unpublished rule. Must be difficult to get people to follow those secret rules.
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Do you know all of the ordinances in the community in which you live? Most people would be surprised to read some ordinances out there.

Most local or county ordinances include airport operations. Some are simple (follow FAA regulations) while others get very restrictive. As long as they don't violate the FAA Grant Assurances (if they are receiving federal funding) then they are allowed to write their own rules and regulations.

charris911 said:
Seems simple enough to publish in the AFD and that's it.
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One would assume that, but not always the case.
 
charris911 said:
Heck of rule...an unpublished rule. Must be difficult to get people to follow those secret rules. Seems simple enough to publish in the AFD and that's it.
Click to expand...

Speaking about the unpublished rule will get you double secret probation.
Crush 2 beer cans on your forehead and mail them back to the dean, I mean manager.
 
KeyWestPhotog said:
Jon, I have flown in there numerous times. The older Cuban gentlemen who manages the airport is a great knowledgeable guy. The younger folks that works for him, tend to do whatever the home based glider pilots tell them to do/complain about. I have a feeling knowing these folks, is that the "homeboys" were in the FBO BS'n when you were going through your procedures, and told the young fellas to get on the radio and put a stop to it. I have been in there before and seen them give folks a hard time via radio just to deter non-locals from taking up there airspace. Especially those students that don't speak English from Air-Sal, if you know what I mean.


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Click to expand...

¿Que dices?
 
wsuffa said:
Wow - according to city code, it is illegal to do aerobatics over the city of Homestead. It is also illegal to do ANY training flights in the city.

Read it and weep.
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Nuthin' bout back taxiing though.
 
wsuffa said:
Wow - according to city code, it is illegal to do aerobatics over the city of Homestead. It is also illegal to do ANY training flights in the city.

Read it and weep.
Click to expand...

But, can you back-taxi?

Edit: Bart scooped me.
 
alfadog said:
The Unicom (County employee manager) comes on and tells me that "back-taxi not permitted". I say I am not aware of anything like that and go about my business. While we are in the pattern he comes back and asks me to stop by his office to look at something. Yeah, right. I am nice but no way I am going out of my way for that. I ask him what he is looking at, FAR, Advisory Circular, what? He says it is the operating agreement for the airport. I tell him I will come by the next time I am getting gas over there but not today. Leave it friendly.

I am not finding this agreement online but wonder how an operating agreement at a non-towered airport can control the flight operations of visiting pilots???

Anyone have experience with something like this?
Click to expand...

I dont fault you for backtaxiing, but a simple "roger" would have sufficed. If I fly to another airport and they ask me not to back taxi, I'll comply. I don't see the need to make a federal case out of it. There are plenty airports that have various operating rules that aren't necessary going to show up in the A/FD or NOTAMs. Perhaps you could have just given him a call?
 
wsuffa said:
Apparently it is an airport rule. A little web search turned this up: http://www.lafa.com/X51OpDir54.pdf

It is on the LAFA website. http://www.lafa.com/X-51.htm

Pretty hard for a transient to figure out. Sounds like the airport is not particularly informative to transients.

Double secret probation, indeed.
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You da MAN! That is what he was referring to, indeed. He said it was dated 1995. So, I stand corrected. Good thing I know how to prep my words for later eating.
 
Brad Z said:
I dont fault you for backtaxiing, but a simple "roger" would have sufficed. If I fly to another airport and they ask me not to back taxi, I'll comply. I don't see the need to make a federal case out of it. There are plenty airports that have various operating rules that aren't necessary going to show up in the A/FD or NOTAMs. Perhaps you could have just given him a call?
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Huh? Instead of saying that I was not aware of such a rule? And if airport managers start making their own rules and/or thinking they are ATC, then, guess what, it is a Federal case. In that it is an FAA matter.
 
wsuffa said:
Apparently it is an airport rule. A little web search turned this up: http://www.lafa.com/X51OpDir54.pdf

It is on the LAFA website. http://www.lafa.com/X-51.htm
Click to expand...


Damn good find WSUFFA. I learned something! What gets me, if 64% of your activity is transient, then you should have your procedures where those 64% can find them!

Maybe that is asking to much. Anyone should not have to rely on a "club " web page for this type of info.
 
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