IFR training pilot cannot fly level and straight ... when changing radio frequency or briefing plate

Juliet Hotel said:
I said nope, and you wouldn't either if you just let it settle and fly like it wants to. That one statement taught him a lot and no edict about not touching trim was required. Just sayin.
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I had a student that I absolutely could not break of this. Dude had to fiddle with the yoke 3 times a second. Doesn't matter how many times I said something.
 
Chapel K. said:
I Will go flying later this week and plan to share with the CFII what I have learned from here. Lets say what his reaction is. Will also try out all the good sound advice.
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I am late for this dance but I am really interested in what your CFII says when you ask about his no trim comment.
 
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is to become very familiar with approach plates or taxi diagrams. When I was flying often it was almost muscle memory to pull up a frequency. Same for your briefings don't have to read a novel.

IE find a shorthand that works for you "110.75 231 inbound down to 260 missed with tower or missed off the FMS up to 4000". learning what information to pull and where to get it will help you keep from getting away from the flying the plane part.
 
falconkidding said:
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is to become very familiar with approach plates or taxi diagrams. When I was flying often it was almost muscle memory to pull up a frequency. Same for your briefings don't have to read a novel.

IE find a shorthand that works for you "110.75 231 inbound down to 260 missed with tower or missed off the FMS up to 4000". learning what information to pull and where to get it will help you keep from getting away from the flying the plane part.
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Love this shorthand approach you suggested. Thanks
 
Interesting thread.
OP, don’t beat yourself up. What you are experiencing is normal.
I just two days ago did a Comanche 250 insurance checkout /BFR/IPC for a retired American Captain w/28,000hrs in heavy metal.
He had same issues. However, he was on top of the a/c and knew how to trim a plane! We both had a joyous time/flight!
As you get more experienced and familiar with the equipment, your comfort level and confidence will grow.
 
Flew with my CFI Wed. afternoon. Shared with him the advice that I received from here. He goes like "sure, you should trim the plane, later. but for now, I want to you have more work to do during your training. Everything will be easier towards the end of your training, particularly when you can use Autopilot, even just use HDG ALT part of the autopilot. By then you will miss the fun of flying ... " So I started to trim the plane once we were 8000 feet, and things were a lot easier. I would let go of the control stick from time to time when handling the radio. I had far fewer problems flying the plane level and straight.

Thank you all, fellow (more experienced) pilots. Your kind advice worked out very well. Greatly appreciated! Thank you, thank you, and thank you all!
 
Good luck. You have some good advice regarding trim. I wouldn't put this on your CFII necessarily, he may be a good one, just is guilty of ASSuming since you are already a rated pilot and can handle the airplane decently, that you do not need additional instruction on how to trim the airplane.

It is a mistake I made myself as a CFII, when I was relatively new at it. I had a pilot/owner with lots of hours who just had trouble with this. He always flew just fine VFR and his speed control and landings were decent. It took me way longer than it should have for me to realize he was having trouble with approaches because he wasn't trimming the airplane much when we went through speed, altitude, configuration changes. Eventually I got wise and put my hand on the trim wheel as he flew the approach under the hood. I felt it move two or three times, that was it. We had a conversation, did some drills on trimming, and he got much better and passed his checkride.
 
Trim for hands=off level flight at chosen airspeed. Take your hands off of the yoke and maintain wings-level with light rudder pressure. You should be able to hold heading and altitude for two or three minutes if you let the trim knob alone
 
Does the airplane have air-adjustable aileron and rudder trim, or only ground adjustable? If ground adjustable, any chance that one or both of them are set wrong for your IMC cruise speed? That could cause an unintended bank and loss of altitude, and trying to compensate for it could lead to a tendency to overcontrol back pressure and begin a climb.

What happens to the airplane when you get it trimmed out VFR on a generally calm day and let go of the yoke/stick and take your feet off of the rudder pedals? Does it fly straight and level?
 
bkspero said:
Does the airplane have air-adjustable aileron and rudder trim, or only ground adjustable? If ground adjustable, any chance that one or both of them are set wrong for your IMC cruise speed? That could cause an unintended bank and loss of altitude, and trying to compensate for it could lead to a tendency to overcontrol back pressure and begin a climb.

What happens to the airplane when you get it trimmed out VFR on a generally calm day and let go of the yoke/stick and take your feet off of the rudder pedals? Does it fly straight and level?
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Eventually, I was able to let go of the control but still flying level and straight
 
Update for all:

I flew again this Wed. afternoon for a XC in simulated instrument condition. Discovered a huge improvement and relief this time. I was able to trim when climbing and cursing, and the airplane just "flew itself" straight and level, and I could program the system, load the approach, brief the plate, etc. just like... a pilot. Thanks!
 
I was IR training before Covid and chose to put it on hold. The one most helpful suggestion for control I found (other than trim because I thought that was obvious) is to hold the yoke around the center part. Reduces input by a lot. If you are flying a stick I guess the analogy would be to hold it further down.

Something else I also chose to do is fly at the bottom of the green. Helps provide a smoother ride and gives more time for other tasks.
 
woodchucker said:
to hold the yoke around the center part.
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I do exactly the same when flying x-plane with control. Thanks for sharing your experience. Hope you could resume your IR training soon after all we have seem a couple of vaccines on the News.
 
Chapel K. said:
I do exactly the same when flying x-plane with control. Thanks for sharing your experience. Hope you could resume your IR training soon after all we have seem a couple of vaccines on the News.
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Thank you for the kind words. I’m hoping soon next year. I teach high school so need to deal with one issue at a time. Probably resume next summer if possible.
 
Interesting thread. I'm a PPL with 150 hours and considering starting my instrument training- seems like I had similar tendencies with the limited foggle time during PPL training. On a related note, I've been looking into other training schools other than the one I did my PPL with, for instrument training. Below is an excerpt of one school's instrument training program. I have not called and spoken to them yet, but what do you think about the Redbird emphasis? Seems to imply that they focus primarily on simulator training to lower the cost. Is that wise? Is that what you read into the their website verbiage?

"We believe strongly in a highly structured curriculum for the instrument rating to make sure that fundamental skills are learned and demonstrated proficiently, before moving on to the next skill. We also want to make sure we can do this in the most cost effective way possible. Therefore, our Instrument Syllabus and lesson notes (created by xxxxxxx of yyyyyy Aviation, Inc. for zzzzzz Aviation) are designed to learn skills in our Redbird simulator prior to putting them into practice in the airplane. Once the syllabus has been completed, and if practice is still required to become proficient prior to the check-ride, the practice is completed in our Redbird sim with Pilotedge ATC services so the experience is just like flying IFR flights in the airplane. We have found that this produces a very high learning curve, a high degree of proficiency, at the lowest possible cost for our students."

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
 
Chapel K. said:
Am a new private pilot with about 23 hours of IFR training in the airplane. I seem to have more problems keeping the airplane on a steady level straight flight. The moment I try to tune in a different frequency, or to take note of the destination airport ATIS, or to look at an approach chart, my plane would start to either climb or decent simultaneously flying to left or right. Actually more often toward the left. By the way, I fly control stick with my left hand. Anyone had this problem when flying instruments? I would really appreciate hearing how you have overcome it.

Many thanks.
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In addition what has been said already, part of the trick is to know the avionics very well so that you can turn the knobs without having to focus on them too much. The more you have to futz with it, the longer it is going to take your attention away from the airplane. Fortunately, this is something you can master on a simulator or in the airplane sitting on the ground.
 
sarangan said:
In addition what has been said already, part of the trick is to know the avionics very well so that you can turn the knobs without having to focus on them too much. The more you have to futz with it, the longer it is going to take your attention away from the airplane. Fortunately, this is something you can master on a simulator or in the airplane sitting on the ground.
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Fully agree. There will always be tasks, though that you haven't practiced on the ground yet, so the key is breaking everything down into small steps, e.g.
  1. Put your right hand on the radio knob.
  2. Stop and scan the instruments
  3. Look at the current frequency and decide which way to turn.
  4. Stop and scan the instruments
  5. Spend 2 seconds turning toward your target frequency
  6. Stop and scan the instruments.
And so on. It's not a natural way to do a task, breaking it down into 2-second slivers, but it's the best way to keep control of the plane when hand-flying in IMC.
 
midlifeflyer said:
My two rules.

1. @simtech's take your hand off the yoke. Or at least loosen it. We all have a bit of a tendency to pressure the yoke a bit when not paying direct attention. P-factor has nothing on my personal left turning tendency. :D

2. The "three second rule." Do not be away from the primary flight instruments for more than three seconds at a time.
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Three seconds is a long time. Let me stick my finger in your eyeball and hold it there for one full second.

Bob Gardner
 
Sierra_Hotel said:
I had a student that I absolutely could not break of this. Dude had to fiddle with the yoke 3 times a second. Doesn't matter how many times I said something.
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When in the clouds or under the hood, it is AMAZING to see what all can happen in three seconds.
 
3 times per second, not 3 seconds :lol: He was stable enough under the hood, but there were plenty of other issues that we never did correct. Had 1 more flight with him after that and never heard from him again.
 
Chapel K. said:
Am a new private pilot with about 23 hours of IFR training in the airplane. I seem to have more problems keeping the airplane on a steady level straight flight. The moment I try to tune in a different frequency, or to take note of the destination airport ATIS, or to look at an approach chart, my plane would start to either climb or decent simultaneously flying to left or right. Actually more often toward the left. By the way, I fly control stick with my left hand. Anyone had this problem when flying instruments? I would really appreciate hearing how you have overcome it.

Many thanks.
Click to expand...
My instructor would tell me my watch was too heavy. I finally figured it out. I still laugh at him.
 
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