IFR Panel for Training

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Rob58, Jun 16, 2019.

  1. Rob58

    Rob58 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Planning out a panel upgrade that will provide the needed instruments and avionics for IFR training and future IMC missions. With limited space (and limited budget) I probably cannot load up the panel with everything desirable. Will be installing the new Garmin GPS 175 and thinking about a pair of Aerovonics AV30s once they are approved. Questions are: do I need dual VORs? How important is a DME? Thanks for some feedback!
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  2. Challenged

    Challenged Pattern Altitude

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    Those AV30s look like a cool product, especially if they get the auto-pilot interface going. What's in the plane now?
     
  3. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    If you're putting in a standalone IFR GPS then I see no reason for a second VOR nor for a DME.
     
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  4. TommyG

    TommyG Cleared for Takeoff

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    IFR certified GPS, get rid of the DME weight. Don’t need it, and more and more DMEs are going inop.
     
  5. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

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    Send us your pictures!!!
     
  6. Rob58

    Rob58 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks for the feedback and confirmation on my hope that the second VOR and a DME would not really be necessary. My panel is largely filled with steam gauge flight instruments. For avionics I have an SL40, GTX 335 and replacing the old 170B with an SL30. Adding an engine monitor, a PS Engineering audio panel and a few other improvements. Still evaluating the best options for an auto-pilot, which will need to be added with a field approval. Pictures to come. Thanks again!
     
  7. brcase

    brcase Pattern Altitude

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    Pretty much the minimum required to complete an IFR check ride is a VOR/glide slope and some sort of distant information either a DME or IFR certified GPS. Or with just a VOR and a VFR GPS with the right database/waypoint, you can do pretty much everything except the IFR Cross country(might be possible with the right approaches available, would have to check the rules again) and the last 10 hours of training and the check-ride. Well technically only the check-ride but you will want probably 10 hours in the airplane you are going to take the check-ride in, and to actually practice Precision approaches.

    Brian
    CFIIG/ASEL
     
  8. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

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    If you have WAAS GPS, dual VORs are not necessary. WAAS GPS can substitute for DME. For maximum utility, you want WAAS GPS so you have access to LPV approaches. My panel is pretty minimal for a WAAS equipped IFR single: GNS-430W GPS/COM, Terra NAV/COM, GMA-340 audio, NGT-9000 XPNDR/ADS-B. That gives me LPV and dual redundant VOR/ILS/COM. I also have an STEC-20 AP, but I lived without that for years. Nice to have, though. Today's APs are better.

    You could easily make do with a Garmin 175 and a NAV/COM/ILS unit with good IFR utility. What are you doing for ADS-B? if you need to take care of that along with the GPS it would scream Garmin 375 to kill both birds with one stone. If you go with the 175 or 375 I would strongly consider the G5s instead of the AV30s. Are they that much cheaper? I'm putting in G5s at the next annual and ripping out the vac system. They will play with everything in my panel, including GPSS for the AP.
     
  9. N1120A

    N1120A Line Up and Wait

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    There is zero need for a DME with GPS.

    The best panel is to have ILS capability as well as WAAS GPS capability, and that isn't such an expensive thing to do with a used 430W or even the now downward pressure on 650s.
     
  10. Rob58

    Rob58 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I already have the Garmin GTX 335 for ADS-B... bought it before they introduced the 375. Actually my main motivator for the AV30 is the aesthetics - round instrument for an old airplane. A pair of G5s, as good as they seems to be won't easily fit in my rather small panel... but then again the AV30 isn't out yet so I am keeping my options open.
     
  11. nrimmer

    nrimmer Filing Flight Plan

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    I already had dual nav/comms with glideslope on the top radio. My home field ILS requires DME (or GPS substitute) so for $900 my A&P and I installed a used KN64 so that I could maximize IFR training without the time and expense of installing an IFR GPS. The KN64 works great and it doesn't get more simple, both to use and install. That was augmented by dual G5s (to replace a failing AI, and suspect DG) and a TruTrak autopilot. If I find that I am being limited by not having an IFR GPS then I will consider installing the Garmin 175 (already have a 335 for ADS-B out). This setup is a great foundation IFR platform - good for training and occasional/light IFR use.

    I hear a lot of guys knock DME these days, but my CFII, who is a seasoned ATP and owns multiple light aircraft, has kept it in every plane he owns. I personally love the simplicity, and for now it fits my mission at a lower cost than installing a panel mounted GPS and keeping up with the subscriptions. Determine what your mission is, where you realistically plan to go with your flying, and build for that.
     
  12. Creekrat

    Creekrat Filing Flight Plan

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    Sounds similar to what I'm doing. I will end up with a gns430w, G5 HSI, kx155 w/gs, KI209, axp340 and amx240. Keeping the KI209 just because it's already there
     
  13. Rob58

    Rob58 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks again for the great feedback. Does anybody know if there are 3D CAD model files (IGES, Solidworks, etc) that someone has created for any of these components? I'd like to build up a CAD model of my new panel just to work out some of the layout refinements.
     
  14. Creekrat

    Creekrat Filing Flight Plan

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    whereas a 3d model would be nice you could very simply lay it out in 2d. You would just need to ensure proper clearances for mounting depth.
     
  15. Rob58

    Rob58 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Yes, I would be real happy with a 2D file - that would be a good start. Reason for building a 3D model is to look at all of the clearance issues and work out a location for stuff that can go behind the panel. Thinking about a Fast Stack hub and a few other things.
     
  16. Rob58

    Rob58 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    One follow-on question: is a panel mounted clock required to be IFR legal?
     
  17. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

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    FAR 91.205(d)(6) requires that a clock be installed in the aircraft, capable of displaying hours, minutes and seconds for IFR flight. Seems anachronistic to be honest, but there you are. I don't use mine at all, but put batteries in it every few years to keep it running so I'm legal.
     
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  18. nrimmer

    nrimmer Filing Flight Plan

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    Yes you need a clock, no it doesn’t have to be panel mounted. A lot of guys stick one on the yoke. I installed the Flight Data GT-50 in the 2” hole where the factory Cessna clock was. It is a dead simple digital clock, flight timer, stopwatch, volt meter, and optional ambient temp - and only costs $170 and is certified.
     
  19. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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  20. Rob58

    Rob58 Pre-takeoff checklist

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