IFR navigation

Interesting discussion.

I recall poring over IFR Low charts with my instructor, trying to figure out how to get onto an airway on departure, and how to get to an IAF (Initial Approach Fix) when arriving. Not always obvious, and sometimes, it involves some pretty significant deviations from your preferred direction of travel.

Too, I am spoiled (complacent?) living in a Class Bravo area. Every instrument clearance starts with, "Radar Vectors to to the Joe Pool Departure...". Every arrival (no matter how filed) is radar vectors to the final approach course.

From time to time, I fly to a place where I need an approach and the approach will be completely below radar coverage so, assuming I am not played in a hold pending departures or arrivals ahead of me in the same airspace, I am cleared for the approach and at that point, I am on my own, to fly to the VOR, turn outbound, procedure turn, inbound, pass the VOR, descend per the chart (still using the GPS in place of the DME)... all that.

No question, GPS has changed the game, for the better.

But that's what they said when VORs came online. Imagine having to fly based solely upon the scratchy noise of an A-N Range for guidance!
 
Amr Hosny said:
In the plane zip fly there isa GPS, but I know it should be used as a reference only in the flight test.
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If a GPS is in the plane during the flight test, you may be tested on using it. If there is not a GPS in the plane during the flight test, you definitely be tested on using it.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Im pretty sure, you can actually legally fly on an IFR clearance, in IMC, with just a radio. No transponder, no VOR required. You need the gyros of course. For practical purposes you do need a transponder.
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You need "navigation equipment suitable to the route to be flown" per 91.205. NO clearance allows for navigation strictly by com radio. Even "radar vectors" have a route to fly in the event of lost comms.

So, no. You need at least one VOR receiver that has had a VOR check in the last 30 days, or IFR certified RNAV equipment in order to fly IFR. And ADF in Alaska would probably be adequate, as airways are still defined by NDBs there. But a com radio alone? No.

You can legally fly without a transponder under the same conditions as VFR. In a practical sense, it's gonna be a PITA.
 
SCCutler said:
Interesting discussion.

I recall poring over IFR Low charts with my instructor, trying to figure out how to get onto an airway on departure, and how to get to an IAF (Initial Approach Fix) when arriving. Not always obvious, and sometimes, it involves some pretty significant deviations from your preferred direction of travel.

Too, I am spoiled (complacent?) living in a Class Bravo area. Every instrument clearance starts with, "Radar Vectors to to the Joe Pool Departure...". Every arrival (no matter how filed) is radar vectors to the final approach course.

From time to time, I fly to a place where I need an approach and the approach will be completely below radar coverage so, assuming I am not played in a hold pending departures or arrivals ahead of me in the same airspace, I am cleared for the approach and at that point, I am on my own, to fly to the VOR, turn outbound, procedure turn, inbound, pass the VOR, descend per the chart (still using the GPS in place of the DME)... all that.

No question, GPS has changed the game, for the better.

But that's what they said when VORs came online. Imagine having to fly based solely upon the scratchy noise of an A-N Range for guidance!
Click to expand...

Even in busy airspace, you can ask for an approach "pilot nav." The response may be "there will be a 15 minute delay" or somesuch, but you can do it.
 
SCCutler said:
I recall poring over IFR Low charts with my instructor, trying to figure out how to get onto an airway on departure, and how to get to an IAF (Initial Approach Fix) when arriving. Not always obvious, and sometimes, it involves some pretty significant deviations from your preferred direction of travel.
Click to expand...

Someone in another forum a few days ago asked why the ILS 18 to KLNK wasn't labeled "DME REQUIRED" -- they'd missed HUSKR, and you could tell they'd never looked at the IFR Low Enroute for the area. Lookie there... a method to the madness...

(That approach is indelibly imprinted in my brain, thanks to @jesse of course. Haha. Failing stuff on that one can make things quite entertaining, depending on where you do it. We don't have nearly that sort of fun approach to mess with people with around here...)

For the OP... think through how you'd fly this one...

- Single VOR head.
- Dual VOR head.
- Single VOR head with DME.
- Dual VOR head with DME.
- GPS ( does it matter? )

Now have a sadistic instructor do things like fail your DME somewhere ... say... before HUSKR... or one of your VOR heads... or both... and the DG...

Think quick. Going to keep flying it? Or maybe go missed and go back up and brief that mess again, a different way?

Fun stuff. Keeps brain moving.

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Hmmm.

You could do it with one Nav/GS receiver, but if it did not have frequency flip-flop, it'd be a real humdinger.
 
And the evil treatment of Jesse (with Greg in the back cackling, just to make it funner) lives with me still from an IPC at Gaston's a few years back...

...humility is a great training tool.
 
Amr Hosny said:
Can we fly IFR without a GPS and if so how to reach the waypoints / fixes for an approach or a hold?
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VORs, DME, Airways, etc. are all still very useful. I start my accelerated program with the basics of electronic navigation (VOR). Conventionally IFR-equipped planes are best supplemented by at least a good portable GPS with XM or a tablet + GPS/ADS-B receiver a la Garmin's GDL-39, Stratus, or Stratux/Flightbox. With the exception of not being able to fly an RNAV approach, you should be able to get most places just fine.
 
SbestCFII said:
VORs, DME, Airways, etc. are all still very useful. I start my accelerated program with the basics of electronic navigation (VOR). Conventionally IFR-equipped planes are best supplemented by at least a good portable GPS with XM or a tablet + GPS/ADS-B receiver a la Garmin's GDL-39, Stratus, or Stratux/Flightbox. With the exception of not being able to fly an RNAV approach, you should be able to get most places just fine.
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Howdy. Check dates on threads when you revive them. Heh. This one petered out in December of last year.

(No argument with your post information though. Just something to notice that happens around here...)
 
Some topics are timeless. ;)

However, as necroposting goes, I've seen worse.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Im pretty sure, you can actually legally fly on an IFR clearance, in IMC, with just a radio. No transponder, no VOR required. You need the gyros of course. For practical purposes you do need a transponder.
Click to expand...

Your aircraft must have the minimum IFR equipment, the aircraft must be type-certificated for IFR flight under the conditions of the flight, the IFR-rated pilot must be current, your transponder and altimeter (required), must be certified to IFR standards within the last 24 months and you must have communication and navigation equipment required for the filed route to be flown. Unless navigation will be performed using a certified WAAS GPS, then you'll have to have at least VOR equipment with a receiver check logged within the past 30 days.

Required equipment:
§91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.

(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:

(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in §121.305(j) of this chapter; and

(4) Slip-skid indicator.

(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.

(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.

(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.

(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).

(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).
 
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