IFR Minimums

but my guess is that the pilot shot a difficult approach near mins, was looking for the airport (which is what ends up happening), and, for whatever reason, didn't see it. Airspeed got too slow, plane stall/spun into the ground.

Isn't this just improper procedure? I don't see how conditions played a part. If the PIC was on instruments, airspeed should have been in the scan and the aircraft in a stable decent. When it is time to decide, one should look up and decide. I would think it should not take more than a second to decide. That should not be enough time to slow to stall speed. If you don't see it, go missed. I'm still studying this, so please let me know if this is not typical or most of real ifr flying...
 
Isn't this just improper procedure? I don't see how conditions played a part. If the PIC was on instruments, airspeed should have been in the scan and the aircraft in a stable decent. When it is time to decide, one should look up and decide. I would think it should not take more than a second to decide. That should not be enough time to slow to stall speed. If you don't see it, go missed. I'm still studying this, so please let me know if this is not typical or most of real ifr flying...
What you wrote is theoretically what is supposed to happen. However, reality is that it sometimes doesn't. People get fixated looking for "something" and neglect flying the airplane.
 
There is always a discussion about IFR minimums.

People make approaches way too complicated. Approaches are basically flying a heading and altitude. Something everyone can do after the first 2-3 weeks of training. I keep my simple brain focused on doing this and block out everything else.
 
Isn't this just improper procedure? I don't see how conditions played a part. If the PIC was on instruments, airspeed should have been in the scan and the aircraft in a stable decent. When it is time to decide, one should look up and decide. I would think it should not take more than a second to decide. That should not be enough time to slow to stall speed. If you don't see it, go missed. I'm still studying this, so please let me know if this is not typical or most of real ifr flying...


I think that in this case, the airplane was in poor visual conditions after getting below the cloud deck on the approach. Now comes the really dangerous part about circling approaches... Find the airport, maintain the airport in sight, and manuever for landing. This is not easy. You're now flying visually, and things may not look right, even if you've been to the airport before. The protected airspace for circling is tight, too. I find it easy to conceive of a "lost" pilot stalling the airplane either by turning too aggressively or by losing focus while trying to find the airport.

In a straight-in approach aligned with a runway, the decision is easier - the runway should be either right ahead or offset by your wind correction angle. You should be able to spot it pretty quickly, or not, and go missed if need be.

When I do IFR proficiency flying with a CFII I like to practice circling, because it's a rare thing to do it in real life (for me at least). And I generally won't fly an approach where I have to circle unless the weather is above minimums, particularly where visibility is concerned.
 
Isn't this just improper procedure? I don't see how conditions played a part. If the PIC was on instruments, airspeed should have been in the scan and the aircraft in a stable decent. When it is time to decide, one should look up and decide. I would think it should not take more than a second to decide. That should not be enough time to slow to stall speed. If you don't see it, go missed. I'm still studying this, so please let me know if this is not typical or most of real ifr flying...

You're correct, that is what should happen. This is what I mean when I say that adjusting safety to meet degraded ability by raising personal minimums is poor logic. The only way to effectively increase safety is to increase ability. He made basic errors in flying procedure, and he made multiple errors.
 
Depends on what the IFR pilot is uncomfortable with, thunderstorms and ice? Yep, bail. Stable IFR reporting legal minimums, then the IFR pilot should not be getting uncomfortable. The fact they are uncomfortable indicates they are lacking training or experience and rather than reduce their options they should rather get their ability up to speed. This is where the great SVT advantage is.

You said it, brother. Flying the G1000-equipped Cessnas was already miles ahead of the round gauges, mostly because of the increased SA. Once I had flown the Perspective, however, it really just became embarrassingly easy.

I consider myself a safe and good pilot--nothing extraordinary--but with the SVT on a big 12-inch screen, and everything else in that Perspective, it is hard NOT to fly to ATP standards on approach, reliably, every time.
 
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You said it, brother. Flying the G1000-equipped Cessnas was already miles ahead of the round gauges, mostly because of the increased SA. Once I had flown the Perspective, however, it really just became embarrassingly easy.

I consider myself a safe and good pilot--nothing extraordinary--but with the SVT on a big 12-inch screen, and everything else in that perspective, it is hard NOT to fly to ATP standards on approach, reliably, every time.

Yep, but nobody will believe you because they don't want to spend the money required to fly with the equipment.
 
Perhaps the approach itself hasn't killed many people, but the overall conditions may have played a part.

A few weeks ago there was a Malibu that crashed not too far from here, killing its occupants. It was a crappy night out, probably around mins. The pilot elected to perform a non-precision approach to an airport that I don't think had the best facilities in the world. I don't know all the details yet (and it's far too soon for the NTSB report to come out), but my guess is that the pilot shot a difficult approach near mins, was looking for the airport (which is what ends up happening), and, for whatever reason, didn't see it. Airspeed got too slow, plane stall/spun into the ground.
The point I'm trying to make is that in the situation you've described the crash didn't happen because the pilot hadn't set personal minimums higher than the published ones, it happened because the pilot lost control of the airplane. I submit that if the clouds were 200 ft higher and the pilot had applied a 200 ft buffer to the published mins, the outcome would have been the same as it's unlikely that another couple hundred feet would have resulted in a successful recovery from the LOC.

A couple hundred more feet that allowed the airport to be visible earlier might have made the difference between making it in safely and being an NTSB report.

That's not how personal mins works unless you divert anytime the reported weather is below the PMs and the reports are always accurate. Otherwise you're left with two possibilities, either of which results in the pilot looking for a runway while flying close to the ground. One has the pilot leveling off in IMC at some altitude above the published mins, and the other has him/her continuing to the published mins in IMC when the clouds are lower than reported.

Or alternately deciding to divert to an airport with a better approach. I did that one night where my options were do a non-precision approach to a short runway in the rain or go to a nearby bigger airport with an ILS that would've been easy. Chose the ILS and the bigger airport, even though it meant that we had to get picked up by someone since the car was at the smaller airport.
It is indeed possible that diverting to an airport with a better approach when conditions are close to published mins might reduce the chances for a mishap but even that's not guaranteed. If the pilot is going to lose control on a NP approach slogging along at the 400 ft MDA, why is he any less likely to lose it searching for the runway on an ILS. IMO ILSs aren't any safer or less risky than a VOR approach as long as the airplane remains in control and at a safe altitude.

And IMO the thing that adds difficulty on any approach isn't the airplane's proximity to the ground but rather the effects of poor visibility. That's what leads to pilots letting the plane get slow and/or low when they're trying hard to see a runway or lights. IME a ceiling 25 ft above the published min with 10 miles vis below is a piece of cake compared to a much higher ceiling with visibilities in the half to 1 mile, especially when the approach lighting is minimal or non-existent. Yet when most folks talk about setting personal minimums they tend to think only about altitudes not visibility limits. Now if a pilot adopted a policy of diverting to an approach with a decent ALS whenever the visibility was reported to be less than 3 miles I could see the potential for an improvement in safety.
 
Yep, but nobody will believe you because they don't want to spend the money required to fly with the equipment.

While it is true that renting the SR20 with Perspective is not cheap (I did my initial training 11 years ago in a C150 which rented for $50 an hour), there are great benefits to flying such a capable aircraft.

For those of you who have doubts, understand that I did my IR in a very capable aircraft, but one which had no AP nor an IFR GPS. I am very glad I did that, and I enjoyed conquering each challenge. But having said that, it is just a fact that having every possible aid at your disposal makes your flying safer.

Just don't drink too much kool-aid and think you are flying in an all-weather or indestructible aircraft.

If you are an owner considering SVT for your airplane, consider that not only does it make your flying in IMC all the more safe, but it also might even be life insurance.
 
While it is true that renting the SR20 with Perspective is not cheap (I did my initial training 11 years ago in a C150 which rented for $50 an hour), there are great benefits to flying such a capable aircraft.

For those of you who have doubts, understand that I did my IR in a very capable aircraft, but one which had no AP nor an IFR GPS. I am very glad I did that, and I enjoyed conquering each challenge. But having said that, it is just a fact that having every possible aid at your disposal makes your flying safer.

Just don't drink too much kool-aid and think you are flying in an all-weather or indestructible aircraft.

If you are an owner considering SVT for your airplane, consider that not only does it make your flying in IMC all the more safe, but it also might even be life insurance.

It's the information that I like, the presentation makes situational awareness immediate and natural in a 3D format as you see life, all already assembled. No time wasted combining and interpreting multiple sets of analog data and then taking that info and transposing it onto a chart. Boom, look at the picture and you know what's in front of you and what shape you're in.
 
You said it, brother. Flying the G1000-equipped Cessnas was already miles ahead of the round gauges, mostly because of the increased SA. Once I had flown the Perspective, however, it really just became embarrassingly easy.

I consider myself a safe and good pilot--nothing extraordinary--but with the SVT on a big 12-inch screen, and everything else in that Perspective, it is hard NOT to fly to ATP standards on approach, reliably, every time.

Do you also use the green flight path vector symbol?
 
Do you also use the green flight path vector symbol?

I smell a loaded question.

Anyway, I use it all the time. Its information isn't available through any other avionics source. That little green airplane can save your life when nothing else can.
 
The problem with personal minimums is you need even more proficiency since you will generally need to roll your own missed approach procedures. Missed approach procedures are based on the MAP and if you leave early you'll need to figure out how not to hit things on your own....
 
Isn't this just improper procedure? I don't see how conditions played a part. If the PIC was on instruments, airspeed should have been in the scan and the aircraft in a stable decent. When it is time to decide, one should look up and decide. I would think it should not take more than a second to decide. That should not be enough time to slow to stall speed. If you don't see it, go missed. I'm still studying this, so please let me know if this is not typical or most of real ifr flying...

That's the theory, but in practice it doesn't always happen that way. Transitioning from instruments to visual can be disorienting, and in low-is conditions, the runway is rarely as easily visible as it is when you're just on the hood until mins, take off the hood (remember, vis is probably 10+ miles and bright sun when practicing), and suddenly the runway is clearly there.

This is where two-pilots can help a great deal in enhancing safety. One is heads down on the instruments, dedicated to that. The other is heads up looking for the runway, dedicated to that.

The point I'm trying to make is that in the situation you've described the crash didn't happen because the pilot hadn't set personal minimums higher than the published ones, it happened because the pilot lost control of the airplane. I submit that if the clouds were 200 ft higher and the pilot had applied a 200 ft buffer to the published mins, the outcome would have been the same as it's unlikely that another couple hundred feet would have resulted in a successful recovery from the LOC.

I think it's a bit of a chicken and egg question. I certainly agree that couple hundred feet wouldn't have been enough to recover from a loss of control. But the question is why the pilot lost control in the first place. I think most would agree that it would be unlikely that the pilot would have lost control on a visual approach on a bright sunny day. This was a very cloudy, low vis, night approach, and the pilot did lose control. So somewhere in between A and B is the threshold where the pilot went from able to handle the situation to not.

Yes, the NTSB report will likely list the cause as "The pilot's failure to maintain adequate airspeed on approach." The human factors question is "Why?"

That's not how personal mins works unless you divert anytime the reported weather is below the PMs and the reports are always accurate. Otherwise you're left with two possibilities, either of which results in the pilot looking for a runway while flying close to the ground. One has the pilot leveling off in IMC at some altitude above the published mins, and the other has him/her continuing to the published mins in IMC when the clouds are lower than reported.

Weather report accuracy is a big question. At my old home drone it wasn't uncommon for them to report OVC020 and break out at 005. But that's pretty rare overall.

When I was new to instrument flying, I didn't want to fly if it was forecast to be below OVC008, assuming I had an ILS that went down to 002. Yes, it would mean that I would divert or otherwise specifically choose my airports accordingly.

Nowadays, I have no qualms shooting approaches to minimums, at night. I'm sure you're the same. We are also significantly more experienced than the low-time folks.

It is indeed possible that diverting to an airport with a better approach when conditions are close to published mins might reduce the chances for a mishap but even that's not guaranteed. If the pilot is going to lose control on a NP approach slogging along at the 400 ft MDA, why is he any less likely to lose it searching for the runway on an ILS. IMO ILSs aren't any safer or less risky than a VOR approach as long as the airplane remains in control and at a safe altitude.

I don't know what the accident statistics tend to say about that, so I can only guess on conjecture. I would tend to suspect that an ILS or LPV approach would be significantly better than a step-down as far as safety, simply because your plane should be set up for a descent at a given airspeed to stay on the needles and you're going to be lined up well with the runway, plus better lighting (typically). All that helps in the human factors.

Now, many folks will fly a non-precision step-down as just that. They will step down from altitude to altitude, and each time will require some level of power change. Let's say that power change is inadequate and the plane starts slowing down while maintaining altitude, or drops below the published altitude. These configuration changes may be required multiple times.

As for me, I've always found precision approaches easier. Now that the 310 has WAAS and non-precision GPS approaches after the FAF have vertical guide bars, I think that definitely has made flying those approaches easier and safer.

And IMO the thing that adds difficulty on any approach isn't the airplane's proximity to the ground but rather the effects of poor visibility.

Agreed.

That's what leads to pilots letting the plane get slow and/or low when they're trying hard to see a runway or lights. IME a ceiling 25 ft above the published min with 10 miles vis below is a piece of cake compared to a much higher ceiling with visibilities in the half to 1 mile, especially when the approach lighting is minimal or non-existent. Yet when most folks talk about setting personal minimums they tend to think only about altitudes not visibility limits. Now if a pilot adopted a policy of diverting to an approach with a decent ALS whenever the visibility was reported to be less than 3 miles I could see the potential for an improvement in safety.

And that should be part of personal minimums.

I think we're in agreement overall, just looking at it slightly differently.
 
The problem with personal minimums is you need even more proficiency since you will generally need to roll your own missed approach procedures. Missed approach procedures are based on the MAP and if you leave early you'll need to figure out how not to hit things on your own....

I thought personal minimums mean that although you are trained and capable to fly to approach minimums, that you would choose to not fly there and attempt the approach unless the reported or forecast conditions were something better. For example, one may have a non precision approach to 500 ft AGL, and you are capable of flying that, but you choose to not go there (because you know of close terrain) unless the ceiling is forecast for at least 1500 ft. This is a personal minimum, but not necessarily modifying the approach itself...
 
I thought personal minimums mean that although you are trained and capable to fly to approach minimums, that you would choose to not fly there and attempt the approach unless the reported or forecast conditions were something better. For example, one may have a non precision approach to 500 ft AGL, and you are capable of flying that, but you choose to not go there (because you know of close terrain) unless the ceiling is forecast for at least 1500 ft. This is a personal minimum, but not necessarily modifying the approach itself...
That's how I understood it as well.
 
That's how I understood it as well.
IME that's rarely if ever how they are applied. Most pilots I know who subscribe to the use of personal minimums do one or both of two things. One is they will delay or cancel a flight if the destination forecast is below their "limit" (e.g. 500 AGL or 1000 AGL). The problem with that is forecasts are wrong about as often as they're right and sooner or later such a pilot is going to be faced with a busted forecast and actual weather conditions below their comfort level. And I'd be willing to bet most such pilots won't have anticipated this with a couple of pre-selected airports far enough away from the busted forecast to have decent weather and have both the fuel and self discipline to divert.

Method two goes a bit further with the pilot committing to diverting somewhere if the reported weather is lower than their "personal minumums" when they arrive. One problems I see with that is that they need to treat this in their planning by departing with sufficient fuel to reach the intended destination and divert to somewhere (likely very far away) with significantly better forecast weather than the destination. Another is it's common IME for pilots to set PMs that are at some fixed AGL altitude ignoring the actual published altitude limits as well as the visibility requirements. The result is that their personal minimums are more likely to result in a false sense of security than an actual safety improvement.
 
IME that's rarely if ever how they are applied. Most pilots I know who subscribe to the use of personal minimums do one or both of two things. One is they will delay or cancel a flight if the destination forecast is below their "limit" (e.g. 500 AGL or 1000 AGL). The problem with that is forecasts are wrong about as often as they're right and sooner or later such a pilot is going to be faced with a busted forecast and actual weather conditions below their comfort level. And I'd be willing to bet most such pilots won't have anticipated this with a couple of pre-selected airports far enough away from the busted forecast to have decent weather and have both the fuel and self discipline to divert.

Method two goes a bit further with the pilot committing to diverting somewhere if the reported weather is lower than their "personal minumums" when they arrive. One problems I see with that is that they need to treat this in their planning by departing with sufficient fuel to reach the intended destination and divert to somewhere (likely very far away) with significantly better forecast weather than the destination. Another is it's common IME for pilots to set PMs that are at some fixed AGL altitude ignoring the actual published altitude limits as well as the visibility requirements. The result is that their personal minimums are more likely to result in a false sense of security than an actual safety improvement.
Good points.
 
IME that's rarely if ever how they are applied. Most pilots I know who subscribe to the use of personal minimums do one or both of two things. One is they will delay or cancel a flight if the destination forecast is below their "limit" (e.g. 500 AGL or 1000 AGL). The problem with that is forecasts are wrong about as often as they're right and sooner or later such a pilot is going to be faced with a busted forecast and actual weather conditions below their comfort level. And I'd be willing to bet most such pilots won't have anticipated this with a couple of pre-selected airports far enough away from the busted forecast to have decent weather and have both the fuel and self discipline to divert.
That happens to pilots who will fly to the published minimums too. I don't see how having personal minimums makes the situation any worse.

Method two goes a bit further with the pilot committing to diverting somewhere if the reported weather is lower than their "personal minumums" when they arrive. One problems I see with that is that they need to treat this in their planning by departing with sufficient fuel to reach the intended destination and divert to somewhere (likely very far away) with significantly better forecast weather than the destination.
I don't see how that would be any more a problem with personal minimums than published minimums. In either case a pilot needs to determine reasonable alternates.

Another is it's common IME for pilots to set PMs that are at some fixed AGL altitude ignoring the actual published altitude limits as well as the visibility requirements. The result is that their personal minimums are more likely to result in a false sense of security than an actual safety improvement.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Personal minimums should always be higher than published minimums both in ceiling and visibility. Now if you are saying that a more logical way to approach personal minimums is to add a certain amount to the ceiling and visibility (e.g. adding 200' and 1 mile) rather than having some hard number (e.g. 500' for an ILS) I would agree with you. Some ILSs have minimums higher than 500' so that method wouldn't work.
 
IME that's rarely if ever how they are applied. Most pilots I know who subscribe to the use of personal minimums do one or both of two things. One is they will delay or cancel a flight if the destination forecast is below their "limit" (e.g. 500 AGL or 1000 AGL). The problem with that is forecasts are wrong about as often as they're right and sooner or later such a pilot is going to be faced with a busted forecast and actual weather conditions below their comfort level. And I'd be willing to bet most such pilots won't have anticipated this with a couple of pre-selected airports far enough away from the busted forecast to have decent weather and have both the fuel and self discipline to divert.

Method two goes a bit further with the pilot committing to diverting somewhere if the reported weather is lower than their "personal minumums" when they arrive. One problems I see with that is that they need to treat this in their planning by departing with sufficient fuel to reach the intended destination and divert to somewhere (likely very far away) with significantly better forecast weather than the destination. Another is it's common IME for pilots to set PMs that are at some fixed AGL altitude ignoring the actual published altitude limits as well as the visibility requirements. The result is that their personal minimums are more likely to result in a false sense of security than an actual safety improvement.

Yep...
 
That happens to pilots who will fly to the published minimums too. I don't see how having personal minimums makes the situation any worse.
Like I said the problem I see is that pilot's don't go far enough with the concept of PMs. Properly applied PMs can improve the safety of a marginally competent pilot but it requires significantly more than just avoiding LIFR conditions. And even then a situation requiring the pilot to fly an approach completely in IMC along with the missed procedure is going to happen at some point, and that means the only real safety improvement is the result of spending less time in the clouds due to more cancelled trips.

I don't see how that would be any more a problem with personal minimums than published minimums. In either case a pilot needs to determine reasonable alternates.

The differences are the pilot with PMs is likely to find a suitable alternate a lot further away than a pilot prepared to fly any approach to the published mins, and unless the pilot understands that his "safety margin" will evaporate some day.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Personal minimums should always be higher than published minimums both in ceiling and visibility. Now if you are saying that a more logical way to approach personal minimums is to add a certain amount to the ceiling and visibility (e.g. adding 200' and 1 mile) rather than having some hard number (e.g. 500' for an ILS) I would agree with you. Some ILSs have minimums higher than 500' so that method wouldn't work.
Mari, I think we're on the same page about that. And I also agree that if a pilot does all their flight planning such that they never attempt a flight when the weather is forecast to potentially drop below the published visibility mins plus a 2-3 miles or below published altitudes plus something like 100% or 1000 ft whichever is higher, picks and fuels for alternates that are have a recent local forecast calling for near CAVU, diverting when the reported wx drops below their PMs for visibility or ceiling, and goes missed if they reach their personal AGL limit then I could see the safety value of their PMs. It's just that IME this isn't the way PMs are usually applied.
 
I guess I don't find personal minimums to be such a large philosophical or practical problem. High minimums are applied by by commercial operators to PICs who are have less than 100 hours as PIC in type. This is required by regulation. There are also companies which have their own higher minimums, especially regarding circling, and approaches to mountain airports. I don't think any of this is a problem if you plan adequately.
 
I guess I don't find personal minimums to be such a large philosophical or practical problem. High minimums are applied by by commercial operators to PICs who are have less than 100 hours as PIC in type. This is required by regulation. There are also companies which have their own higher minimums, especially regarding circling, and approaches to mountain airports. I don't think any of this is a problem if you plan adequately.

They also put a high time FO with them so they can still get in, not really different from insurance company "Dual Required" time. I recall a similar rule set at Express 1 that basically worked out to a week or two of restriction depending on your schedule.
 
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Express 1 it did.
Show me the reg where it says anything about the FO's time being relevant. High minimums also apply to single-pilot operations. The first time I was a high-minimums captain was single-pilot in a King Air.
 
Show me the reg where it says anything about the FO's time being relevant. High minimums also apply to single-pilot operations. The first time I was a high-minimums captain was single-pilot in a King Air.

I don't know, I'm going from what was in our Ops manual at Express One operating 2 pilot in the Jetstreams.
 
They also put a high time FO with them so they can still get in,

Not entirely sure what you are saying here. At UAL, it is the Captain's experience that drove what minimums are used. But they try to pair a higher time FO with new Captains regardless.
 
135.225(e) The MDA or DA/DH and visibility landing minimums prescribed in part 97 of this chapter or in the operator's operations specifications are increased by 100 feet and 1⁄2 mile respectively, but not to exceed the ceiling and visibility minimums for that airport when used as an alternate airport, for each pilot in command of a turbine-powered airplane who has not served at least 100 hours as pilot in command in that type of airplane.

That's the 135 reg and I know there is an equivalent one for 121.
 
Hmmm, so, if both pilots are type rated, can either serve as PIC?
I would say that legally, according to the FARs as long as a pilot meets all the currency and testing requirements, which are stricter for PICs, has a current line check, holds a first class medical if required, etc. they could. In addition, the assigned PIC would need 100 hours as PIC in type to avoid the high minimums rule. Mostly it depends on the company, their contract (if they have one) and how the flight is released.
 
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I would say that legally, according to the FARs as long as a pilot meets all the currency and testing requirements, which are stricter for PICs, has a current line check, holds a first class medical if required, etc. they could. In addition, the assigned PIC would need 100 hours as PIC in type to avoid the high minimums rule. Mostly it depends on the company, their contract (if they have one) and how the flight is released.

That may have been how they did it. Back then Captain upgrade at the company was 5-7 years but they typed you on your second year end training.
 
That may have been how they did it. Back then Captain upgrade at the company was 5-7 years but they typed you on your second year end training.
But if you had only served as an FO you would not have the 100 hours PIC in type either. I would think an airline would be the last place for something like that to happen. Think of the contract! What would the FO be paid?
 
But if you had only served as an FO you would not have the 100 hours PIC in type either. I would think an airline would be the last place for something like that to happen. Think of the contract! What would the FO be paid?

Not sure, didn't stick around long enough to find out. Potentially there has been a change in the rules in the intervening decade and a half?:dunno:
 
But if you had only served as an FO you would not have the 100 hours PIC in type either. I would think an airline would be the last place for something like that to happen. Think of the contract! What would the FO be paid?

Well, if you wanted to get technical, the FO could log PIC for his legs after he got typed. But it is HIGHLY unlikely that an FO could fly as PIC out of seniority.
 
Not sure, didn't stick around long enough to find out. Potentially there has been a change in the rules in the intervening decade and a half?:dunno:
It's been that way for 13 years anyway. Someone else can answer about longer ago than that.
 
Not sure, didn't stick around long enough to find out. Potentially there has been a change in the rules in the intervening decade and a half?:dunno:

Not really. Been the same in the 28 years that I have been involved in it.
 
Well, if you wanted to get technical, the FO could log PIC for his legs after he got typed. But it is HIGHLY unlikely that an FO could fly as PIC out of seniority.
I always interpreted the language of the reg, "who has not served at least 100 hours as pilot in command in that type of airplane" as meaning they had to have acted as PIC not just logged.

Oh my, another controversy! :D
 
I always interpreted the language of the reg, "who has not served at least 100 hours as pilot in command in that type of airplane" as meaning they had to have acted as PIC not just logged.

Very possible. Hadn't considered it from that angle. Well, yes I had. That is actually the way it works at UAL. SERVING as PIC. Devil/Details and all.
 
Very possible. Hadn't considered it from that angle. Well, yes I had. That is actually the way it works at UAL. SERVING as PIC. Devil/Details and all.
That is how we interpret it where I work too.
 
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