IFR Long XC Requirement question

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
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Is the 250nm XC trip requirement for the IFR rating 250nm one direction or total nm round trip?
 
gismo said:
Round trip. There are other requirements.
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At first I thought this was obvious until I read 61.65 and realized that it is not so obvious. However, read in context and noting that 61.109 contains similar language for PPL, I would come to the same conclusion that it is Round Trip.
 
Just looked at what would be a possible destination for that trip. From KDTO, it looks like KABI (Abilene) would be just right going west, and KGGG (Longview) for going east.
 
I don't see anywhere that requires a Round Trip. The answer is, it can be either a one way or a round trip, as long as it meets all the requirements... Including the 3 approaches/airports and 250 NM...

So you can fly outbound with your CFI 260 NM and then return VFR to get some commerical requirement out of the way, if that is what you want to do..

Most people do it round trip though..
 
Jaybird180 said:
At first I thought this was obvious until I read 61.65 and realized that it is not so obvious. However, read in context and noting that 61.109 contains similar language for PPL, I would come to the same conclusion that it is Round Trip.
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Technically it doesn't have to be a round trip, you can complete the requirement on a flight that's all in one direction. The rules just don't require that and most such training flights are round trips. Within the "letter of the law" I think you could file and fly a route that ran back and fourth on an airway between two VORs several times to run the total trip length to 250nm but I doubt anyone outside Hawaii ever does that.
 
I think most people go to 3 airports to cover 61.65(d)(2)(iii)(C)
 
EppyGA said:
I think most people go to 3 airports to cover 61.65(d)(2)(iii)(C)
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True but technically per a literal interpretation of 61.65d2(ii) I think you could do all 3 approaches at the same airport.
 
gismo said:
True but technically per a literal interpretation of 61.65d2(ii) I think you could do all 3 approaches at the same airport.
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I don't disagree, just saying why most probably go to three.
 
The ensuing discussion reminds me of last night's Big Bang episode where the girls start arguing over comic books.
 
When are you planning to do it, perhaps we could meet at one place along the way for lunch or dinner!
:yesnod::yesnod:
 
One situation where a one-way would be useful would be with two IR trainees on the buddy system. One flies out while the other observes from the back, then they swap seats for the return trip with the instructor in the right seat both ways.

In any event, while one might argue that going back and forth several times between two airports 51nm apart might fill the bill, most DPE's tend to check it by using straight-line distance around the usual loop or along a one-way course. Not saying that's necessarily the legally required way to do it, but it would be a problem arguing with the examiner on test day. Therefore, I make sure that the round-robin triangle (or more) adds up to 250nm straight-line distance -- guarantees no problems on test day.
 
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Ron Levy said:
One situation where a one-way would be useful would be with two IR trainees on the buddy system. One flies out while the other observes from the back, then they swap seats for the return trip with the instructor in the right seat both ways.

In any event, while one might argue that going back and forth several times between two airports 51nm apart might fill the bill, most DPE's tend to check it by using straight-line distance around the usual loop or along a one-way course. Not saying that's necessarily the legally required way to do it, but it would be a problem arguing with the examiner on test day. Therefore, I make sure that the round-robin triangle (or more) adds up to 250nm straight-line distance -- guarantees no problems on test day.
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Makes sense to me and that's what I did. I only mentioned the bit about using a single airport and multiple back and forth legs because I found it interesting that the reg didn't require more. I'll bet the rulemakers never intended such a "shortcut" to be acceptable.
 
Not to sound preachy, but why not make the most of the 250 mile trip vs. just meeting the requirement?

Wait for a flyable IFR day with weather all the way out to Longview and fly around shooting approaches out and back. Try to get 8 or 10, the lower the better. It's not about the ratings IMO, but using your flying money to get the most beneficial experience.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Not to sound preachy, but why not make the most of the 250 mile trip vs. just meeting the requirement?

Wait for a flyable IFR day with weather all the way out to Longview and fly around shooting approaches out and back. Try to get 8 or 10, the lower the better. It's not about the ratings IMO, but using your flying money to get the most beneficial experience.
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This is something I have thought of. Doing something during training where I visit several airports and do their approaches. I can see during early training visiting the "closer to me" fields more often, and often enough that complacency might be a concern. So going somewhere else to break up the pattern and introduce a new challenge.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Not to sound preachy, but why not make the most of the 250 mile trip vs. just meeting the requirement?

Wait for a flyable IFR day with weather all the way out to Longview and fly around shooting approaches out and back. Try to get 8 or 10, the lower the better. It's not about the ratings IMO, but using your flying money to get the most beneficial experience.
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Definitely a good idea although I'd make sure you had at least 20-30 minutes between approaches and one leg that was long enough to involve multiple airways or course changes.
 
gismo said:
Definitely a good idea although I'd make sure you had at least 20-30 minutes between approaches and one leg that was long enough to involve multiple airways or course changes.
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Lance-

One of the things that was the most challenging learning for me was not shooting an approach nice and relaxed from the IAF with barely another soul on freq. It was on a busy, turbulent, pouring rain, IFR day coming into a class bravo encompassing several airports. Taking machine gun instructions, tight inbound turns, unexpected fixes, rapid descents, etc and dealing with it. In order to simulate that why not throw some quick fire non-standard approaches in on the way out there, especially to unfamiliar airports?
 
gismo said:
Makes sense to me and that's what I did. I only mentioned the bit about using a single airport and multiple back and forth legs because I found it interesting that the reg didn't require more. I'll bet the rulemakers never intended such a "shortcut" to be acceptable.
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I'm sure you're right, but sometimes what the reg writers intended and what the Chief Counsel says they actually said are two entirely different things.
 
One of the long-tooth CFI/DPE's in KC does exactly that during training, and for the reasons you mentioned. His philosophy is that anybody can do it in slo-mo, but trainees need to feel the heat so they won't crack when the pace quickens.
Alexb2000 said:
Lance-

One of the things that was the most challenging learning for me was not shooting an approach nice and relaxed from the IAF with barely another soul on freq. It was on a busy, turbulent, pouring rain, IFR day coming into a class bravo encompassing several airports. Taking machine gun instructions, tight inbound turns, unexpected fixes, rapid descents, etc and dealing with it. In order to simulate that why not throw some quick fire non-standard approaches in on the way out there, especially to unfamiliar airports?
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Here's what I did: KDTO - KEDC (GPS), missed at KEDC then off to alternate T82 (VOR). Great lunch at the Hangar Diner at T82. Then T82 - KDTO (ILS).
 
DrMack said:
Here's what I did: KDTO - KEDC (GPS), missed at KEDC then off to alternate T82 (VOR). Great lunch at the Hangar Diner at T82. Then T82 - KDTO (ILS).
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I'm liking this idea!
 
My long XC for the IR was at night. A beautiful VMC night (or so my CFII said). And we wound up shooting two approaches when we got back to KOLM as we wound up with a duplicate GPS approach into KHIO which we didn't want, but had to take. KOLM-KCVO-KHIO-KOLM. Oh, and I filed a single round robin plan which ATC completely screwed up. We wound up fixing it in the air while flying south on the first leg. They forgot about the visits to KCVO and KHIO and had us staying in the vicinity of KOLM and shooting multiple approaches. Oh well...
 
...KOLM-KCVO-KHIO-KOLM...
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Nice, KCVO! Did you shoot ILS-17?

I'm just starting my IR here, and I'm thinking about going up to Boeing field for my long XC. Should be sufficient to get some of that busy class-B action.
 
dell30rb said:
I did mine in a 152. Use a faster plane.
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I did mine in a 182RG and it still took 4.1 on the hobbs. Though admittedly I chose to go north instead of the standard south like most students.

KCHD->KINW->KFLG->KPRC->KCHD
 
hpux735 said:
Nice, KCVO! Did you shoot ILS-17?

I'm just starting my IR here, and I'm thinking about going up to Boeing field for my long XC. Should be sufficient to get some of that busy class-B action.
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Nope, we did the RNAV 17 at KCVO. Got the RNAV 30 at KHIO (not what we planned) so we did the VOR DME 35 and ILS 17 at KOLM when we got home. BTW, on another flight we did go into KBFI and got vectored around a bit before making the final approach. Something about a push for FedEx incoming flights and it was easier to vector a C-172 than a bunch of jets. Go figure. :D No bid deal going in there on an IFR plan. Actually, it was easier than when I've gone in VFR (and that was no big deal).


Z06_Mir said:
I did mine in a 182RG and it still took 4.1 on the hobbs. Though admittedly I chose to go north instead of the standard south like most students.

KCHD->KINW->KFLG->KPRC->KCHD
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Did my long XC in a C-172. It is the only plane in the club that is /G. Now, go buzzing around in a /U plane like our Arrow and you'll quickly appreciate being at least /A. I really miss the DME when I don't have it.
 
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